4-Way v2: 2mufc vs Himannv

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

TEAM 2MUFC

DEFENCE

The legendary Dino Zoff guards the goal for the team, in front of him is the the back line of Schnellinger-Picchi- Begomi which provides a rock solid central core, boasting pace, power and intelligence with Picchi organising in the middle. His intelligent style is the perfect fit to combat the elusive Muller who he will be facing. Bergomi and Schnellinger provide the robust support around him with their physicality and defensive nous. All three are capable of playing out from the back with elite level distribution from Picchi. Leandro and Evra provide support down the wide areas providing good defensive cover with excellent work rate.

MIDFIELD

Netto will be playing the more defensive role while Falcao will have the the more attacking role, both have great engines and can form a cohesive partnership in both defensive and attacking phases of the game. In front of them is the incredible Platini who will be ghosting around the final third looking to get into goal scoring positions and setting up the strikers to score.

ATTACK

Rooney & Kocsis complete the front line, with Kocsis being the spearhead and Rooney playing as the support striker playing him. These two strikers work hard and are the perfect foil for Platini to operate behind them, whether looking for a goal or creating for the front two. Kocsis strength in the air will also be utilised with two attacking full backs and midfielders with excellent crossing abilities, he will be a nightmare to deal with the abundance of creativity behind him. Rooney will be a constant threat with his movement, pace, power and long shots, his selfless nature will also enable Kocsis and Platini to run riot.

SUMMARY

I believe I have created a cohesive setup with all players complimenting each other and system. Italian grit is at the base of the team, Brazilian magic in the middle and French genius setting up serial goal scorers up top. The team is also flexible, able to play to the game situation as well as being flexible to play different styles of football.


TEAM HIMANNV

Defence:

• 4 good defenders and a great keeper as well.
• Sweeper keeper + Varane + Baresi gives us an option to create from the back.
• Varane plays ahead of some of my other CBs because he's 6'3" and good in the air so he can deal with Kocsis.

Midfield:

• When in possession, Baresi adds to the creativity here.
• Modric plays his Real Madrid role and controls the game and creates chances for the attackers.
• Desailly is a key player in this setup and one of my restricted picks. His presence as a destroyer and a constant shield for the back 4 is what allows the others to shine. Not only is he excellent positionally, but he's very athletic and a very physical presence in that midfield.
• Kopa drops deeper when required and as an elite level dribbler, he helps linking the midfield and attack.

Attack:

• No point having so much creativity without a GOAT striker to finish off all those chances. Muller is one of my favourite strikers to pick these days and he leads this exceptional attack.
• Czibor causes constant problems with his pace and creativity on the left.
• Kubala on the right can both create and also double up as a goal scoring option to support Muller. This is especially the case when he can attack the far post when my attacking left flank creates chances.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@2mufc0 @Himannv All the best!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Fecking hell

 

[Synco]

For 2mufc0's team, Kocsis - Rooney - Platini with Falcao behind looks like a great offense. How good were Evra and Leandro as crossers (low & high)? If they were fine, that's even better.

But Himann's team is just stunning allround. Only thing I'm wondering is if switching Kubala and Kopa might be beneficial? Just asking, not quite sure myself. They can situationally switch positions anyway in a 4-2-3-1.

(Edit: Somehow missed the OP part on Kubala partially acting as a wide forward cutting in. That makes sense of course.)

 

[Himannv]

But Himann's team is just stunning allround. Only thing I'm wondering is if switching Kubala and Kopa might be beneficial? Just asking, not quite sure myself. They can situationally switch positions anyway in a 4-2-3-1.

(Edit: Somehow missed the OP part on Kubala partially acting as a wide forward cutting in. That makes sense of course.)

I had a fair bit of fun with what I wanted to do here. I had the option of playing Kopa wider and going with Mazola or Kubala behind Muller. Kopa, of course, played Outside Right on a fair number of occasions. However, I felt that of the three, Kopa was more of an AM than the other two who I felt were at their best as Forwards. So, I played Kopa through the middle to influence the midfield. Between Mazzola and Kubala, I felt more comfortable picking Kubala for the wider forward role, giving him the natural option of cutting in and being an additional goal threat. My only regret was not playing Mazzola somehow. Either way, a good problem to have as managers constantly say in football.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

For 2mufc0's team, Kocsis - Rooney - Platini with Falcao behind looks like a great offense. How good were Evra and Leandro as crossers (low & high)? If they were fine, that's even better.

I noted this during the drafting phase just in case I drew 2mufc0. Both Evra and Leandro were very good at low or drilled in crosses. I don't remember seeing either assist many headers.

It's still a great pair of wingbacks in the system, even though Kocsis' heading is not fully utilized IMO

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @Himannv, I've got nothing really bad to say about your team really, the only potential weakness I see is Varane, in an all time context I think we can target him, and he's well known to have blunders in him.

 

[2mufc0]

I noted this during the drafting phase just in case I drew 2mufc0. Both Evra and Leandro were very good at low or drilled in crosses. I don't remember seeing either assist many headers.

It's still a great pair of wingbacks in the system, even though Kocsis' heading is not fully utilized IMO

Yeah I think I would agree with that.

Unfortunately there aren't any videos of Evra's assists on YouTube, but I do recall him putting in some decent high crosses. But I don't see this as an issue that would break the attack because :

1. Kocsis was good with his feet too and getting into poacher positions for low crosses.
2. All of the midfielders and even defenders (esp Picchi) are able to play long balls and crosses from central areas outside the box to utilise his heading.
3. I'm not relying on Kocsis heading as a primary tactic. He has plenty of other abilities to get goals and shouldn't be pigeon holed as a heading machine.

 

[harms]

Fair play to @Edgar Allan Pillow, every match up has been very interesting so far.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm not relying on Kocsis heading as a primary tactic. He has plenty of other abilities to get goals and shouldn't be pigeon holed as a heading machine.

Of course, that is well understood

 

[Himannv]

Good luck @Himannv, I've got nothing really bad to say about your team really, the only potential weakness I see is Varane, in an all time context I think we can target him, and he's well known to have blunders in him.

Good luck to you as well. I think you have a great little team, just not as good as mine.

I picked Varane as I think at 6'3" he was a nice option to have against Kocsis (5'9") although I don't think Kocsis gets many opportunities to use his aerial threat here. Varane suffers a bit only because he's currently playing IMO. He's a 4 time Champions League winner and World Cup winner. Not many can boast of such accolades. I've watched him a fair bit and he's always at his best when creating some sort of partnership with his fellow CB. In this case he has a better partner than he's ever had in real life and I expect it will bring the best out of him. I also note his impeccable record in finals. He always seems to win them and it marks him out as one of the best CBs in modern times.

 

[Gio]

Fair play to @Edgar Allan Pillow, every match up has been very interesting so far.

Seconded. Well crafted to secure this even balance of strong teams that each have some small flaws - @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Indnyc]

@Himannv brilliant team except Varane.. Besides his work in an all time context, both him and Baresi are ball playing defenders.. Would have preferred more of a stopper there

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Himannv brilliant team except Varane.. Besides his work in an all time context, both him and Baresi are ball playing defenders.. Would have preferred more of a stopper there

whats wrong with Varane? guess he didnt play in 90s or before

 

[Indnyc]

whats wrong with Varane? guess he didnt play in 90s or before

Not really.. I don’t mind him because he’s a current player but because he isn’t the finished article yet.. There are kinks that need to be ironed out..

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Not really.. I don’t mind him because he’s a current player but because he isn’t the finished article yet.. There are kinks that need to be ironed out..

he is judged on a 3 year peak not a career(and its already a great one). After Baresi he is comfortably the best defender in his team and IMO also goes into oppo team instead Schnellinger.

 

[Indnyc]

he is judged on a 3 year peak not a career(and its already a great one). After Baresi he is comfortably the best defender in his team and IMO also goes into oppo team instead Schnellinger.

Forgot about 3 year peak.. Will re-evaluate my vote

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

This is way too close.

2mufc0's defensive setup works really well against the style of Himannv's wide attackers.

But then Desailly and Baresi are a great counter to Platini and co.

My only 2 concerns are -

1. Although it's a back 5, Netto and Falcao don't seem like a pair that could recover the ball soon, especially when there are the likes of Kopa and Modric in the opposition ranks. It's still okay due to the back 5, but a Tigana or Davids kind of player would have been better instead of Netto (who wasn't a defensive nut himself, but I rate him more on the ball)

2. Kocsis might have a good game against Varane. I rate him, but not high enough just yet. Has the quality but has been at the right place at the right time be it with Madrid or France.

Neither is a huge concern, but points to ponder on for the future rounds depending on who goes through.

Currently calling it a draw, will reconsider if any further discussion happens.

One imaginary partnership I really look forward to is Platini and Leandro. Zico and Leandro had great chemistry and understanding, almost telepathic and I can see the same happening here with Platini.

 

[Himannv]

Wow, didn't expect that scoreline.

 

[Himannv]

I've watched a fair bit of Schnellinger some months back and his particular skillset isn't very suited to dealing with the likes of Kubala and Muller. Both of those can be quick (over short distances) and tricky to deal with for such a languid defender. His skills are more about picking out a pass from the deep and positioning. I notice his preference seems to be to drift more centrally and create with less pressure rather than deal with quick and tricky attackers who make runs around his area. With Kubala and Muller occasionally playing in those areas I think he struggles if Evra ventures too far forward.

 

[harms]

To be fair, Schnellinger had kept 2 clean sheets in 2 games against Müller.

 

[Himannv]

2. Kocsis might have a good game against Varane. I rate him, but not high enough just yet. Has the quality but has been at the right place at the right time be it with Madrid or France.

I think the bolded bit is harsh. He was part of the CL squad of the season and UEFA team of the year for 2017-2018 season. He was also part of the FIFA World Cup Dream 2018 and and voted runner-up UEFA defender of the season. I think it's fair to say he has played well enough to earn these accolades. The only reason he hasn't had similar accolades in other seasons is due to injuries. If you consider a three season peak, he's been fantastic.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think the bolded bit is harsh. He was part of the CL squad of the season and UEFA team of the year for 2017-2018 season. He was also part of the FIFA World Cup Dream 2018 and and voted runner-up UEFA defender of the season. I think it's fair to say he has played well enough to earn these accolades. The only reason he hasn't had similar accolades in other seasons is due to injuries. If you consider a three season peak, he's been fantastic.

Well, I do rate him in his generation. In an all time context, I am waiting for that one individual memorable season to elevate him higher and place him in the higher tiers.

 

[Himannv]

I am waiting for that one individual memorable season to elevate him higher and place him in the higher tiers.

2018 maybe? Won the World Cup and CL and is one of only 4 players who have achieved this in the same year. Voted runner-up defender of the season in UEFA, got into the UEFA team of the year, and made it into the CL squad of the season. Made it into FIFPro World 11, IFFHS team of the year, FIFA World Cup dream team, and even got an order of merit type honour for his services to France. Highest rated defender in Ballon d'Or ratings that year by a considerable margin. Plus his performances were fantastic as well and showed that he's a good all-round defender who is physical, fast, and also decent with the ball.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

2018 maybe? Won the World Cup and CL and is one of only 4 players who have achieved this in the same year. Voted runner-up defender of the season in UEFA, got into the UEFA team of the year, and made it into the CL squad of the season. Made it into FIFPro World 11, IFFHS team of the year, FIFA World Cup dream team, and even got an order of merit type honour for his services to France. Highest rated defender in Ballon d'Or ratings that year by a considerable margin. Plus his performances were fantastic as well and showed that he's a good all-round defender who is physical, fast, and also decent with the ball.

I don't mean w.r.t trophies won and accolades received. Sergio Ramos has won them all as well for example.

I mean Godin level seasons where their presence and absence is more than significant.

I don't think he has reached Godin levels just yet personally.

 

[harms]

Yeah, he never had an absolutely dominant season (like van Dijk recently) that's required to be even considered for the highest tier. At the moment his trophy haul is a little misleading, although he is a great defender (it's just that when you look at his trophies, you expect someone like Baresi, for example).

 

[2mufc0]

I think the bolded bit is harsh. He was part of the CL squad of the season and UEFA team of the year for 2017-2018 season. He was also part of the FIFA World Cup Dream 2018 and and voted runner-up UEFA defender of the season. I think it's fair to say he has played well enough to earn these accolades. The only reason he hasn't had similar accolades in other seasons is due to injuries. If you consider a three season peak, he's been fantastic.

I think he has a good point, there are a number of players who were in the right place at the right time in that Madrid squad in that period, including the likes of Carvajal and Casemiro who have shown they just really are average to good players. Also its misleading to say he had a massive role in all of those CL wins as he only played half the games in two of those wins. I would say the Pepe-Ramos partnership was more important in that period.

I will admit he was good in the World Cup though, interestingly enough he's never been in the league team of the season which says something about his consistency.

 

[2mufc0]

Wow, didn't expect that scoreline.

We need to stop doing this tactic in draft games, esp so early in the game and when the scores are closer than being made out to be.

 

[harms]

1. Although it's a back 5, Netto and Falcao don't seem like a pair that could recover the ball soon, especially when there are the likes of Kopa and Modric in the opposition ranks. It's still okay due to the back 5, but a Tigana or Davids kind of player would have been better instead of Netto (who wasn't a defensive nut himself, but I rate him more on the ball)

Netto was very good defensively. That said, I'm pretty sure that Kopa beats him for his goal (the first of the game), but the footage quality is shit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Thing with Varane is that he is playing with an absolute moron next to himself so every good performance is memorable.

 

[Himannv]

We need to stop doing this tactic in draft games, esp so early in the game and when the scores are closer than being made out to be.

Apologies. I did think it was over at 7-3 and felt a bit hard done by.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Apologies. I did think it was over at 7-3 and felt a bit hard done by.

No hinting of scores unless you're giving up the match early.

 

[Synco]

I have no issues with Varane here, his partnership with Baresi is like a better version of his real life one with Ramos (would perhaps have switched sides, though). He has all the attributes for that covering/sidekick role next to Baresi, while contributing to buildup on his own.

Only issue I've usually seen people having with him was inconsistency, and I always thought that was a bit overblown. Especially since defending in that post-Mourinho Real team was a tough job, for its often deficient defensive shape.

All in all, I don't think Himann's center, shielded by Desailly, is in any more trouble than 2mufc's backline is against Himann's offense, particularly the left hand side with Evra/Schnellinger. I'd say less, actually.

Also not sure how good a fit Picchi is against Müller. I suspect in the old days Müller would have been marked by a dedicated stopper, not by Picchi himself. Or do others here see that differently?

 

[2mufc0]

All in all, I don't think Himann's center, shielded by Desailly, is in any more trouble than 2mufc's backline is against Himann's offense, particularly the left hand side with Evra/Schnellinger. I'd say less, actually.

Also not sure how good a fit Picchi is against Müller. I suspect in the old days Müller would have been marked by a dedicated stopper, not by Picchi himself. Or do others here see that differently?

Why don't you think Schnellinger is a good fit here? I think he's perfectly suited to the role esp facing someone like Kubala who wasn't really a wide player.

With regards to Picchi, he was known for his intelligence, positioning and reading of the game which is precisely what you need against strikers like Muller who are best known for their movement and ghosting into goalscoring positions. As for your other query, Muller would be operating in central areas in that system, so naturally Picchi would be the one picking him up.

 

[harms]

I have no issues with Varane here, his partnership with Baresi is like a better version of his real life one with Ramos (would perhaps have switched sides, though). He has all the attributes for that covering/sidekick role next to Baresi, while contributing to buildup on his own.

Yeah, I'd probably question his positioning or concentration sometimes, but with Baresi leading him he's going to be brilliant.

 

[2mufc0]

Good game @Himannv , really strong team well drafted.

 

[Gio]

I've watched a fair bit of Schnellinger some months back and his particular skillset isn't very suited to dealing with the likes of Kubala and Muller. Both of those can be quick (over short distances) and tricky to deal with for such a languid defender. His skills are more about picking out a pass from the deep and positioning. I notice his preference seems to be to drift more centrally and create with less pressure rather than deal with quick and tricky attackers who make runs around his area. With Kubala and Muller occasionally playing in those areas I think he struggles if Evra ventures too far forward.

Was that Schnellinger at left-back or sweeper? Quite taken with what I've seen of him centrally at Milan, albeit it can be hard to judge some of the old sweepers (basically any of them pre-Baresi) because they are spare men and don't have to engage in as much 1v1 or zonal defending.

 

[Himannv]

Was that Schnellinger at left-back or sweeper? Quite taken with what I've seen of him centrally at Milan, albeit it can be hard to judge some of the old sweepers (basically any of them pre-Baresi) because they are spare men and don't have to engage in as much 1v1 or zonal defending.

He played left back in those games but operated very much like a sweeper in any case.

 

[Synco]

@2mufc0
Sorry for the late reply, was pretty busy the last few days.

Why don't you think Schnellinger is a good fit here? I think he's perfectly suited to the role esp facing someone like Kubala who wasn't really a wide player.

I wouldn't say he's a bad fit as such, but maybe not ideal in combination with Picchi beside him. My basic point was just that I'd imagine your defense getting in more trouble against Himann's offense than vice versa. I think the center/left defensive side of Evra/Schnellinger/Picchi/Netto (+ Rooney) could simply be overwhelmed by an attacking force of Kubala/Kopa/McGrain/Müller (+ Modric).

With regards to Picchi, he was known for his intelligence, positioning and reading of the game which is precisely what you need against strikers like Muller who are best known for their movement and ghosting into goalscoring positions.

That's certainly one requirement for combating Müller, but I see others which (as far as my picture of Picchi goes) he may be lacking:

a) Müller was usually worked over 90 minutes by the opposition's best defensive hardman. He had to be physically subdued as soon as he got close to the ball, also crucially in aerial duels. Not leaving him an inch of space was a must. I see Picchi being a great fit for covering and supporting that kind of defender, but not really excelling at being that defender himself.

b) Müller was exceptionally quick on the first few yards - both physically and in terms of reaction time. So good anticipation was sometimes not enough - his markers also had to be able to react to unpredictable moves with zero forewarning. I don't see Picchi having that kind of agility and quickness from a standstill.

So in my book a defender going up against Müller must be pretty perfect allround - that's why he scored close to a goal a game over his career. I see Picchi more as a specialist in operating behind such a player, and he may be somewhat dependent on such a partner. Then again, my knowledge of him is limited, so I may simply underestimate him.

As for your other query, Muller would be operating in central areas in that system, so naturally Picchi would be the one picking him up.

Yeah, obviously, but that might just be the problem (see above).

Generally speaking, I find it hard to translate the traits of sweepers/liberos in man-marking systems into modern zonal defenses. Maybe their abilities in anticipation/defending space are just what would make them integrate well into a modern backline - maybe their habit of defending around a man-marking "wavebreaker" would leave them too exposed in terms of direct physical duels.

Probably depends on the individual player. I reckon Passarella would be as good a CB in 2020 as he was in 1978, for example. Same for Krol. I could imagine Schnellinger well as a DM today.