4-Way v2 - Finals: Pat vs Moby

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

TEAM PAT

Formation: 4-4-2 Diamond

Johan Cruyff comes into the team as Diego's replacement and has a free role at the tip of the diamond, orchestrating and overloading as he sees fit. He's reunited with one of his chief partners in crime from WC 74 Wim van Hanegem, who comes back into the team to complete the diamond alongside Stielike and Mendieta. At the other end of the pitch the GOAT libero Franz Beckenbauer completes the team. He played briefly at international level with Stielike, who can drop in if necessary when Beckenbauer advances with the ball. He's familiar with Kaltz too, who he enjoyed two successful seasons with at Hamburg, where they won the league together at the tail end of the Kaiser's career.

TEAM MOBY

Key Highlights:

• Fairly straight forward line up built around Messi to shine with a platform that would allow him to dominate the game at the heart of the game, having the freedom to drop deep or take on the defenders and score.
• The familiar wing-combo from the treble winning Bayern team, bringing in the pace, skill and technique needed to take fullbacks on and create chances for the men in the middle.
• A creative axis in the middle without compromising in terms of workrate and steel in De Bruyne and Overath - two highly skillful passers who can combine to dominate midfield and retain possession, as well as play the required delicious through balls to provide the service to the trio up front. De Bruyne is GOAT level in terms of playing the final ball, which would put a ton of chances on a plate for the front three.
• Proven World Cup winning combination of Overath and Bonhof in midfield, the WC final they won against the Netherlands team led by Johan Cruyff. While Vogts famously marked Cruyff in the game, the midfield put in a massive shift in terms of plugging the gaps against that flamboyant Netherlands team and will be expected to do the same here in terms of putting all action combative tireless performances and get the job done vs Cruyff again.
• Baresi comes in to marshall the defense, one of the greatest individual defenders ever seen, as well as one of the greatest leaders for organising the backline, and not to mention has tremendous ability on the ball to play the ball out and start attacks. His elite reading of the game will be vital in terms of cutting the service from Cruyff and co. and in general reading Cruyff's game and constantly breaking it up either by taking proactive measures or putting in those insane blocks for the opposition forwards and protecting the goal. Alongside him he has another defender in Vidic who would put his life on the line and complement Baresi well as the stopper.
• Two highly acclaimed fullbacks in Schnellinger and Gerets complete the watertight defense. Gerets' physicality, stamina, pace and engine would be vital in going outside Robben when we attack and also keep tabs on someone like Neymar (if he starts there) in terms of marking him and not getting outrun in any scenario. He is fresh from marking out Cristiano out of the game in the semi, so Neymar is child's play for him.
• Match winning keeper in goal.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Pat_Mustard @Moby All the best!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good to see De Bruyne get a run out here. Tremendous player who isn't at all out of place in an all-time pool imo. Last nice thing I say for a while!

Proven World Cup winning combination of Overath and Bonhof in midfield, the WC final they won against the Netherlands team led by Johan Cruyff. While Vogts famously marked Cruyff in the game, the midfield put in a massive shift in terms of plugging the gaps against that flamboyant Netherlands team and will be expected to do the same here in terms of putting all action combative tireless performances and get the job done vs Cruyff again.

I've commented on Cruyff's WC final performance as a neutral previously and stand by this exchange with you and Gio:

But you're placing undue weight on the final. Zidane played much better in the 1998 final than the 2000 final but we always went for the 2000 set of performances. After all, it's not the Tournament Final Draft, it's the Tournament draft.

As I said above, Cruyff wins a penalty in the first minute after a 50-yard run through the heart of the West German team. Then later in the half breaks clear and tees up Rep for an easy finish - which he squanders. It's not as if he had a shite game and couldn't influence matters - he basically gives Holland 2 goals in the final! Even though that wasn't Cruyff's best game of his campaign, it's hard to think of many greats who have had more influence on a final. How many 50-yard runs have there been with the ball in a World Cup final to win a penalty?

The narratives we retrospectively develop about certain tournaments and players are often a little distant from what happened.

Aye, I've watched that match lately and Cruyff didn't really vanish after winning the penalty as per the popular narrative. Rep should have done much better when Cruyff played him in one vs one with Maier, he nearly set up another with a great free kick whipped low across the six yard box near the start of the second half, and in general he seen more of the ball than I would have expected. Not to downplay the efforts of Vogts, however, who was superb and mostly stayed on the right side of outright cynicism in his defensive work. Ol' Berti was good on the ball as well, bursting forward through the middle and coming close to scoring in the first half.

Without a dedicated man-marking job by someone on the level of Vogts, that WC final is useless as regards to how Cruyff will fare here.

A creative axis in the middle without compromising in terms of workrate and steel in De Bruyne and Overath - two highly skillful passers who can combine to dominate midfield and retain possession, as well as play the required delicious through balls to provide the service to the trio up front. De Bruyne is GOAT level in terms of playing the final ball, which would put a ton of chances on a plate for the front three.

No denying the quality of passing that Overath and De Bryune can provide. As regards dominating the midfield, not likely. Stielike looks better in the holding role than Bonhof, and in general I don't see any area of the midfield where you have any sort of decisive upper hand.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Gutted that Moby didn't start Souness as I was planning a full-scale dirty war replete with quotes from this match if he had after the raw wounds of reinforcement-gate.

As it stands, his midfield looks significantly weaker without the Glorious Bastard. As fine an all-rounder as Bonhof was, he looks worse in the DM role than his counterpart Stielike, and in general a midfield three of Souness/Bonhof/Netzer (or De Bruyne) would have presented a more formidable challenge than Bonhof/Overath/De Bruyne, which looks ill-equipped to deal with Cruyff and only suitable for a possession battle that they're not likely to win.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Two highly acclaimed fullbacks in Schnellinger and Gerets complete the watertight defense. Gerets' physicality, stamina, pace and engine would be vital in going outside Robben when we attack and also keep tabs on someone like Neymar (if he starts there) in terms of marking him and not getting outrun in any scenario. He is fresh from marking out Cristiano out of the game in the semi, so Neymar is child's play for him.

Going to either go unconscious or watch Better Caul Saul soon, so I'll address a few more points from the OP first. I get that this is probably slightly flippant, but given that I'm happy to give De Bruyne credit (he's got an uphill task vs van Hanegem though) let's not act like Neymar is some turd.


Season/Competition/Appearances/Goals/Assists

19/20		Coupe de France	1	1	-
19/20		Ligue 1	15	13	6
19/20		Champions League	3	2	2
19/20		Coupe de la Ligue	2	1	2
18/19		Ligue 1	17	15	8
18/19		Coupe de France	3	2	3
18/19		Coupe de la Ligue	1	1	-
18/19		Champions League	6	5	2
18/19		Trophée des Champions	1	-	-
17/18		Ligue 1	20	19	13
17/18		Champions League	7	6	3
17/18		Coupe de la Ligue	2	1	-
17/18		Coupe de France	1	2	-
16/17		Copa del Rey	6	3	3
16/17		LaLiga	30	13	15
16/17		Champions League	9	4	9
15/16		Copa del Rey	5	4	2
15/16		LaLiga	34	24	16
15/16		Champions League	9	3	5
15/16		Club World Cup	1	-	2
14/15		Champions League	12	10	-
14/15		Copa del Rey	6	7	1
14/15		LaLiga	33	22	9
13/14		LaLiga	26	9	10
13/14		Copa del Rey	3	1	-
13/14		Champions League	10	4	5
13/14		Supercopa	2	1	-
2013		Série A	1	-	-
2012		Série A	17	14	7
2012		Recopa Sudamericana	2	1	-
2012		Libertadores	12	8	3
11/12		Club World Cup	2	1	-
2011		Série A	21	13	5
2011		Libertadores	13	6	3
2010		Série A	31	17	9
2010		Copa Sudamericana	2	-	1
2009		Série A	33	10	7

It's boosted by playing in super-teams without a doubt, but that's a stunning level of productivity and he's hardly an easy match for either Gerets or Vidic in terms of quality or playing style.

Match winning keeper in goal.

Ditto.

Final thoughts for now:

Moby seems to be banking on winning effective control of the midfield which seems unlikely here. That reduces Messi's effectiveness in and of itself, and Messi/Robben doesn't look great in terms of maximising the effectiveness of either player. Beckenbauer/Stielike also seem to have the better fit and synergy in terms of dealing with the opposition GOAT than Baresi/Bonhof.

 

[2mufc0]

Good to see De Bruyne get a run out here. Tremendous player who isn't at all out of place in an all-time pool imo. Last nice thing I say for a while!



I've commented on Cruyff's WC final performance as a neutral previously and stand by this exchange with you and Gio:





Without a dedicated man-marking job by someone on the level of Vogts, that WC final is useless as regards to how Cruyff will fare here.



No denying the quality of passing that Overath and De Bryune can provide. As regards dominating the midfield, not likely. Stielike looks better in the holding role than Bonhof, and in general I don't see any area of the midfield where you have any sort of decisive upper hand.

I've always felt this way about Cruyff's wc final performance imo he had a good 8/10 game. That run through the heart of the German team straight off the bat was incredible.

 

[Moby]

Seeing as the opposition has opted to go with a diamond, that gives me a great advantage down the wings having two first rate wingers who would get the better of their fullback match ups on a regular basis. Both Ribery vs. Kaltz and Robben vs Demyanenko are battles that are likely to give me a ton of joy down those sides especially given my fullbacks will provide ample support.

With the pace and skill of Robbery opening up spaces with supporting fullbacks, similar to how City operate, the key men in the middle in Messi and De Bruyne will get a lot of space as soon as one of the CBs or CMs shift out wide to help out, which they will have to to avoid the fullbacks getting isolated and outnumbered.

Just a reminder of how deadly these two treble winning greats are together:

 

[Moby]

Secondly, as you would generally look for in a side built around Messi, you need a midfield that is functional and has great chemistry even if it doesn't have the greatest individual names which is what we have gone for here. Overath and Bonhof bring in the proven chemistry of a World Cup winning pair and both possess an excellent balance of graft and ability on the ball. With De Bruyne finishing off the midfield, and the likes of Ribery, Messi and Baresi in constant support from the front and the back, they will have the upper hand in the midfield battle in terms of retaining possession and putting the opposition under pressure. Defensively, Bonhof's energy and workrate along with the bite and willingness to press and defend from both Overath and De Bruyne would make it a hard one to break.

 

[Moby]

Onto the two star names on the pitch, Messi playing in his peak false 9 incarnation that got him 90-fecking-2 goals in an year and saw him decimate every defender in sight, penetrating midfield and defense from the heart of the midfield and scoring all kinds of insane goals, he is absolutely in his element here in terms of putting in a match winning performance. Neither Santamaria nor Beckenbauer have the defensive tools to keep him out of the game and avoid getting turned over in 1v1s throughout the game. He will score more than once here and will give his team a great opportunity of getting the win.

On the other hand, I see Cruyff having a more difficult task relatively. With the combative midfield unit already discussed above putting constant stops in midfield, the lack of width allows my defense to stay compact and further reduce the spaces. Especially the left side of my defense would be vital here as Schnellinger will be comfortable in terms of moving inside, allowing Baresi to step out to cut out any fires before they become a threat, and with a brilliantly hard working Ribery in front of him who will track Kaltz forward runs, KHS can focus a lot of times on ensuring that there are no spaces to work with in the central areas for the opposition midfield. Obviously that doesnt mean that a player like Cruyff would be kept quiet, but in a game this close and one where fine margins will decide the outcome, I like Messi's chances in this game better. He's better placed to put in a decisive performance.

 

[Moby]

Lastly, the easiest decision for me as soon as picked Messi was to start this phenomenal chance creating cheat code machine who still has a good amount of career left in front of him but has already proven just how absolutely match turning impact he has on games. Comfortably the second best player in the world right now as far as I am concerned, and his contribution both off the ball and on it is something any team would be glad to have. But in a possession outfit with flamboyant wingers out wide and Messi in attendance up front waiting for those absolutely inch perfect defense splitting through balls, you can be sure that he will be cutting through that defense like a hot knife through butter. As always, expect him to be everywhere on the pitch and open up the game constantly.

 

[harms]

Not to go all-Scrappy on you, but you’d definitely want those wingers to function the opposite way here. It’s better to have a huge goalscoring threat on the left (like Henry/Villa and, for a different version, Neymar), to make the most out of Messi’s trademark pass. And on the right it’s better to have a Pedro-ish workhorse who would adjust his position to Messi’s movement, as Messi would naturally drift between the central and right wing zones.

And drawing too many comparisons with the 1974 final when you don’t have a marker on Cruyff is a bit iffy as well, even though partially understandable with 5 players from that final taking part in the midfield battle.

 

[harms]

I would’ve probably voted for Pat straight away if not for my usual hard-on for Baresi, who can elevate an already very impressive defensive unit to an incredible level.

 

[Moby]

Neymar sticks out like a sore thumb in that setup to me. It worked fine with Diego in a more direct setting, however, in this case his complete lack of any defensive effort, or any off the ball support for the rest of the team will not blend well with the midfield players here, as well as put a massive amount of pressure on Demyanenko who is already facing that troublesome Messi-Robben axis and could have done with someone being able to mind Gerets.

As with the previous game, I can see that right flank getting a lot of joy and creating massive in-roads.

 

[Physiocrat]

Gone for Pat. I don't buy Bonhof at DM against Cruyff and Ribery is too much of a wide-playmaker for me to flank a false 9. You could argue Iniesta worked well there but Barca at their peak had two direct forwards either side of Messi

 

[harms]

Neymar actually actively participated in the defensive game while at Barca before he decided that he’s above it. For all their brilliance, having 2 players freed of any defensive responsibility would’ve been too much even for them.

Obviously never at the level of Boniek/Blokhin etc., but competent enough to cover his fullback and to transform their scheme from 4-3-3 in attack to 4-4-2 in defense (with him on the wing).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not to go all-Scrappy on you

Feck off

you’d definitely want those wingers to function the opposite way here. It’s better to have a huge goalscoring threat on the left (like Henry/Villa and, for a different version, Neymar), to make the most out of Messi’s trademark pass. And on the right it’s better to have a Pedro-ish workhorse who would adjust his position to Messi’s movement, as Messi would naturally drift between the central and right wing zones

Agreed

 

[Synco]

Not to go all-Scrappy on you, but you’d definitely want those wingers to function the opposite way here. It’s better to have a huge goalscoring threat on the left (like Henry/Villa and, for a different version, Neymar), to make the most out of Messi’s trademark pass. And on the right it’s better to have a Pedro-ish workhorse who would adjust his position to Messi’s movement, as Messi would naturally drift between the central and right wing zones.

While Ribery is certainly not a prime goalscorer, I think his ability to cut in and create danger near/in the box will still be a great asset in a setup that creates openings for him.

Putting Ribery on the right is also problematic, imo - I know he played games there for France, but in his Bayern times he insisted on his LW role when van Gaal/Guardiola wanted to experiment with the setup. He is an instinct player in many ways, and that's simply where he felt comfortable. I guess I'd play Robbery like this almost by default.

I also think (2013+) Robben was a better and more intelligent allround player he's usually given credit for, including his off the ball positioning. No Pedro-like worker of course, but then again he has other pretty huge advantages. He'd also probably be less of a scorer from the left.

In short, I can see why an exact replication of the dynamics of Messi F9 Barca would be the best setup. But I don't think this one here will be problematic, and it may even be the best option with the wingers available.

Neymar sticks out like a sore thumb in that setup to me. It worked fine with Diego in a more direct setting, however, in this case his complete lack of any defensive effort, or any off the ball support for the rest of the team will not blend well with the midfield players here, as well as put a massive amount of pressure on Demyanenko who is already facing that troublesome Messi-Robben axis and could have done with someone being able to mind Gerets.

I'm sceptical about this characterization, tbh. My (hazy) remembrance is that his defensive contributions may have been inconsistent at times, but they were there. Statistics support that, imo. If you add up all of his Whoscored statistics for att. tackles/interceptions/clearances/blocks, you get a little over 3 direct defensive actions per 90, just a tad less than Robben.

(Edit: Miscounted Robben's stats, Neymar actually has a higher avg - 3,1 vs 2,7)

 

[harms]

Putting Ribery on the right is also problematic, imo - I know he played games there for France, but in his Bayern times he insisted on his LW role when van Gaal/Guardiola wanted to experiment with the setup. He is an instinct player in many ways, and that's simply where he felt comfortable. I guess I'd play Robbery like this almost by default.

I’m not really saying that you should swap Ribery and Robben, as I rate both less on the other wings. Ideally, you’d get a different set of wingers for Messi.

I don’t discount Robben as a defensive presence either. He’s going to be close to Henry is terms of his contributions.

 

[Gio]

Like the use of Ribery on the left there, think it'll work fine. Unsure about the Robben/Messi dynamic. Could be devastating in a lot of ways. But I don't know if Messi occupies the centre-halves in the right way and makes the right type of movement to create space for Robben to cut into.

 

[Synco]

I’m not really saying that you should swap Ribery and Robben, as I rate both less on the other wings. Ideally, you’d get a different set of wingers for Messi.

Yeah, I certainly agree with that, as I said in the post. The question is how much worse this setup would work compared to the ideal. My opinion is: not much, I can see the front four working together well. So a great attacking force, imo.

 

[Synco]

I don’t discount Robben as a defensive presence either. He’s going to be close to Henry is terms of his contributions.

When I wrote the Robben bit, I was mainly thinking about positioning in possession - his ability to adjust his movement to the overall situation. I think his peak version was really good at reading constellations and reacting in his passing & movement. Might lead to good interplay with Messi, who is one of the best ever in this discipline.

 

[Enigma_87]

Robben and Messi IMO works well, used it in the past and obviously some didn't agree, but Robben's pace and ability to stretch the defence and get the end of Messi's through balls suits him down to a T. He also has good work rate will participate in both phases.

Riberi is also a fine choice considering the mechanics. KdB as a most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3. I rate Overath a lot, especially as a playmaker and would like to see him more in drafts as he deserves it. The only questionable role/position for Moby, for me is Bonhof as a holder. Apart from that - great set up.

Not many concerns with Pat's team, either. Ultimately I prefer Moby here in terms of having tad more quality in attack/defence

 

[Moby]

Into the final stretch if anyone's still left to vote.

 

[Synco]

Have voted for Moby. (Not a reaction to his post, but my plan once I'm back home.)

Both teams are well built, and Pat has Beckenbauer/Cruijff in a fitting setup, so it can only be a razor-thin decision.

But I'd trust Moby's defense more in handling the pressure than the opposition's, and I *really* like his midfield three. I also prefer a (well built) 4-3-3 to a (well built) 4-4-2 diamond, as I think it covers the space of the field a tad better. So I see Moby's team having an advantage on the wings, while being solid enough in the center. (I'm a numptie when it comes to tactics though, so I might get something wrong there.)

-------
Btw, Neymar with a fine defensive performance tonight vs. BVB imo.

 

[Indnyc]

Voted for @Moby after going back and forth a lot.. In reality I think it could go either way and don’t see any flaw in either team

Vote for Moby is purely because I like his players a bit more

 

[Moby]

Cheers lads.

Gg @Pat_Mustard that was close.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers lads.

Gg @Pat_Mustard that was close.

Cheers mate and well played! Thanks for organising @Edgar Allan Pillow , it was a fun draft.

 

[Moby]

Rainer Bonhof with a typical Rainer Bonhof tournament. Playing in multiple midfield setups starting with the more conventional 4-2-3-1 alongside another all-round presence in Souness and Netzer ahead of him, then the midfield two in the Ro-Ro team putting in a massive shift for the best performance of the tournament from Team Moby and then finally to wrap things up, turning up as the holding midfielder in a more front-footed possession based outfit alongside his tested midfield general Overath and as always, putting those Orange fannies in their place! What a great player to have for the manager!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats Moby. Gg Pat!

 

[Moby]

Congrats Moby. Gg Pat!

Thanks, was a really fun and enjoyable draft!

 

[Gio]

The overnight finish caught me out there and I missed getting my vote in on time. But well played @Moby - nice adjustment to the squad rejigging after the semi-finals.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Rainer Bonhof with a typical Rainer Bonhof tournament. Playing in multiple midfield setups starting with the more conventional 4-2-3-1 alongside another all-round presence in Souness and Netzer ahead of him, then the midfield two in the Ro-Ro team putting in a massive shift for the best performance of the tournament from Team Moby and then finally to wrap things up, turning up as the holding midfielder in a more front-footed possession based outfit alongside his tested midfield general Overath and as always, putting those Orange fannies in their place! What a great player to have for the manager!

 

[Moby]

The overnight finish caught me out there and I missed getting my vote in on time. But well played @Moby - nice adjustment to the squad rejigging after the semi-finals.

Thanks.

What actually ended up being the biggest stroke of luck for me was picking Robben in Round 4 when I already had Best, Ronaldo and Kalle, just because I had a hunch that EAP will do some GOAT dropping shenanigans. Turned out to be crucial for 3/4 games.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

had a hunch that EAP will do some GOAT dropping shenanigans.

A self fulfilling prophecy.

I have no intentions to do any kind of shenanigans, but after R1 the teams were too strong. Had to drop them down some and was an impromptu decision.

 

[Isotope]

Finally Messi win something. Anyway, congrats @Moby . It's not a shame losing to the eventual winner.

 

[Jim Beam]

Congrats @Moby

Eat a giant dick... much love

 

[Moby]

Congrats @Moby

Eat a giant dick... much love

Thanks