4 years without a trophy

big rons sovereign

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I've reached a point with age where I couldn't care less about trophies. I just want to see the team I have a lot of time invested in play enjoyable football without too much drama (sticking to values and heritage).
Pretty much this, the shiny stuff is nice and all but I just want to enjoy the game.
The 26 years under fergie has left us with a somewhat spoilt fanbase.

Bring on the comments about standards slipping etc.
 

Topgun1

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Nothing wrong with that. I've been saying for a long time I'd respect the club more if they had come out a few years ago and said they were going down a 90% youth player / academy promotion route from that point on for the first team. Limited transfers and expect it to take a while to build our own team to compete, money invested in the stadium, the academy, in coaching and scouting and recruiting the best young players in the world.

Realise it's a daft pipe-dream, but it's nice to dream about.
I'm genuinely impressed by United's academy players, but they appear to lack determination and application. Everyone can see the talent in Rashford and Greenwood for example, I'm just wondering if they came through a German or Spanish system, they might be forced to work a lot harder and put in a lot of application and focus, and they'd look a lot more like Sancho in terms of productivity. In other countries, they really push youth players beyond their comfort zone.

There's no point of having great youth talent if they're not going to work hard, that's basically the bottom line. United can't afford to take it easy with these players, they have a brand to protect.

They've been carrying Lingard for many years who had a combination of little interest in hard work and also off-field problems. I know he claimed he had off-field problems for many years and that's why he didn't perform well. But just look at the state of the club- they couldn't even pick up on the fact that he had off-field problems and that he wasn't going to play well no matter what! They just kept playing him, rolling the dice, hoping he turns up at some point. What kind of system is that?

No amount of talented youth products can fix this broken system.
 

kthanksbye

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Think we need to improve on two things massively.
Our scouting and our coaching. The latter is a problem that compounds the former.

For a long time we've been making the "easy" signings. Players like Maguire, Bassaka, Bruno, VdB are players we should be buying to complete a squad, it's not possible to build a squad with 40m+ signings all over the pitch, some of them 80m+.
Copying my comment from another thread.
We need to identify the Kantes at Cean, Kompany at Hamburg, Lewa at Poznan, Marcelo at Fluminense, Mahrez at Le Havre

Signings like James and Telles are ones that need to turn into big players, and that happens when we scout well and coach well. At the moment we're doing neither.

So we have to buy Lukaku, Pogba, at those prices and Ibra Cavani at that age.
 

devilish

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I thought it was pretty clear I was giving an opinion based upon what I was reading. I've only mentioned my credentials in direct response to someone making a light hearted jib at my post.

It's just my opinion that the kind of person who posts "game over man" if United are losing after 20 minutes is also quite likely to apply the same attitude to adversity in their own life. An opinion based on my own perception.

I know that you didn't really think I was giving any kind of professional diagnosis and so your attempt to one up me here falls pretty flat; again in my opinion.

As a psychologist you must know that opinions are worthless unless properly proven. You must also be aware of how easily a person's opinion can be altered if that person is placed in a certain environment. I can recall studies like the ones done by Asch and Zimbardo. Don't take me wrong I am no psychologist. I did studied psychology in a top UK university for some time as a second degree because I had too much time on my hands, I was bored and I loved the subject. However even I, with my limited knowledge, can say that such opinion is lame.

Now you're entitled to your opinion as anybody else. God knows how many times I said stupid things on this forum. However once you've mentioned your credentials then suddenly your opinion carried weight. Its like fans saying that player X is overrated or that we should sign Sancho and Ole saying the same thing. The former opinion is worth far less then the latter.
 

devilish

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I'm genuinely impressed by United's academy players, but they appear to lack determination and application. Everyone can see the talent in Rashford and Greenwood for example, I'm just wondering if they came through a German or Spanish system, they might be forced to work a lot harder and put in a lot of application and focus, and they'd look a lot more like Sancho in terms of productivity. In other countries, they really push youth players beyond their comfort zone.

There's no point of having great youth talent if they're not going to work hard, that's basically the bottom line. United can't afford to take it easy with these players, they have a brand to protect.

They've been carrying Lingard for many years who had a combination of little interest in hard work and also off-field problems. I know he claimed he had off-field problems for many years and that's why he didn't perform well. But just look at the state of the club- they couldn't even pick up on the fact that he had off-field problems and that he wasn't going to play well no matter what! They just kept playing him, rolling the dice, hoping he turns up at some point. What kind of system is that?

No amount of talented youth products can fix this broken system.
I think that the system is flawed for many reasons

A- Football at academy level is poor. The Spanish system challenge kids far more then in the EPL
B- United lack leaders. The class of 92 were blessed in playing side by side with the likes of Schmeichel, Keane and Irwin. We lack these sort of leaders
C- Ole is not Sir Alex. He lack his tactical brilliance, his coaching skills and the ability to know when to play a kid and when he shouldn't. He also lack the luxury of time. Which is why the likes of Rashford and Maguire are being run to the ground.
 

GaryLifo

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As a psychologist you must know that opinions are worthless unless properly proven. You must also be aware of how easily a person's opinion can be altered if that person is placed in a certain environment. I can recall studies like the ones done by Asch and Zimbardo. Don't take me wrong I am no psychologist. I did studied psychology in a top UK university for some time as a second degree because I had too much time on my hands, I was bored and I loved the subject. However even I, with my limited knowledge, can say that such opinion is lame.

Now you're entitled to your opinion as anybody else. God knows how many times I said stupid things on this forum. However once you've mentioned your credentials then suddenly your opinion carried weight. Its like fans saying that player X is overrated or that we should sign Sancho and Ole saying the same thing. The former opinion is worth far less then the latter.
My opinion only carries any weight at all if it's in my narrow specialist areas of expertise. For me these are detecting deception, research methods and research ethics. I made no such claims here and am categorically stating that my opinion on the nature of a subset of our fans is based on me assuming that what a person writes on a forum just might be indicative of who they are as a person. I make no scientific claims, no argument from authority and no claim that what I am saying is true beyond simply being my opinion.

I realise though that the internet is serious business for some and so I will bow out on this one now.
 

devilish

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My opinion only carries any weight at all if it's in my narrow specialist areas of expertise. For me these are detecting deception, research methods and research ethics. I made no such claims here and am categorically stating that my opinion on the nature of a subset of our fans is based on me assuming that what a person writes on a forum just might be indicative of who they are as a person. I make no scientific claims, no argument from authority and no claim that what I am saying is true beyond simply being my opinion.

I realise though that the internet is serious business for some and so I will bow out on this one now.
Internet is not serious business at all which is why I find such sweeping statement from someone whose been part of this forum for even longer then I did is a bit strange. However psychology is considered by some as serious business which is why I believe that you had to clarify that point out. I am glad that you had done that.
 

JustinC00

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an average manager to beat one of the greatest managers in the history of the sport
Ole is 4-1-3 vs Pep. .
 

RedDevilzFox

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I know some of you United fans might feel like Solskjaer's time is up, but for other football fans, even just hearing his name takes us back to the glory days of when you literally dominated the league and Europe, the great teams you had in the past. IF he can bring back those good feelings, if the players respect what he did back then surely that is better than any alternative. It means more. It's what United is about. Plus at least he has learned under literally the greatest manager of all time. That must certainly stand for something. He has a better track record than any other past legends such as Shearer, Henry, Bergkamp, Zola, Cantona, Ginola etc. He has been brave to take on the biggest job in world football. He tried to make his own career rather than living on past accomplishments. You have to respect him for that. He is putting his legacy on the line right now. You need to get behind him, please.

Conclusively, which other managers who are available would you sign exactly?
Is this a blatant attempt to get 'likes' here?
 

el3mel

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Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I actually am. Currently a senior lecturer in psychology at a university and formerly was a senior psychologist in practice with chartered status. I have a PhD and have published a several papers in peer reviewed journals.

Nice to meet you
Didn't actually expect it to be true. Well, that's great to hear away from football. Nice to meet you too. I'm a junior Rheumatology resident.
 

RedDevilzFox

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Trophies are overrated, rebuilds is where its at.
 

sunama

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That's why Ole will go for Sancho to save his job. He will win a trophy soon.
How soon?
2 years?
3 years?
5 years?
At any top club, if a manager goes 2.5 years without a trophy, he gets fired. Even at a less than top club, that manager will likely get canned.
 

sunama

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I agree on the Premier League, I think City's squad depth means they will be best equipped to win over 38 games. However Chelsea just beat City in the CL, in knockout games anything can happen so i don't necessarily think a CL win is beyond us if we got the right draw.
I assure you. Winning the CL trophy is beyond us.
We'll most likely be bundled out of the CL, after the 1st round and we'll probably be competing for the EL next season.
Chelsea are an ambitious team who demand that the manager wins. If he fails to do so, he gets fired. This is not MUFC's ethos, which is why there is no pressure to win trophies.
 

JebelSherif

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How soon?
2 years?
3 years?
5 years?
At any top club, if a manager goes 2.5 years without a trophy, he gets fired. Even at a less than top club, that manager will likely get canned.
Really, but it took Sir Alex Ferguson 4 years to win his first trophy at Utd. and 13 years to win his first CL.

Should Utd. have ditched him in '89?
 

R_Cubed

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I said that City. That level of performance, put it this way.
If you were to judge Man United by the way Barcelona made us look in both CL finals against them you'd think we were a Conference side and not the second best team in Europe. No other club could have made us look that average in the same way no other club or manager could have made City look that abject.
 

Tomuś

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If you were to judge Man United by the way Barcelona made us look in both CL finals against them you'd think we were a Conference side and not the second best team in Europe. No other club could have made us look that average in the same way no other club or manager could have made City look that abject.
I think I know one guy who has schooled City a few times hehe. Obviosuly they're better than us or villarreal but they were shambolic in that one game.
 

R_Cubed

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I think I know one guy who has schooled City a few times hehe. Obviosuly they're better than us or villarreal but they were shambolic in that one game.
He beat them. Schooled them? No. Chelsea played on the front foot and were good in possession. We park the bus and counter versus Pep. Chelsea passed comfortably through the press. Each time Man United are pressed we look like we have never seen a coherent press before. Two very disparate approaches that lead to different outcomes. I would also point out that Chelsea beat Man City in 2 meaningful games. A semifinal and a Cup Final. We are yet to do that.
 

JebelSherif

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All while we watch on while Liverpool win the league for the first time in 30 years, a champions league and just as glorious, we get to watch city pretty much dominate football...

what a great time to be a united fan.:(
I think it will be a decade before we win the league or a Champions League.
I'm interested to know what people think about this: if the club had not become owned by the American family everyone hates, would they be in a better or worse place now?* I don't really know enough detail, but it was 2005 yes? But who owned Utd. before then and did they need to sell the club, and why to people who seem to have put Utd. into debt - were there not other people interested in buying the club, at the time?

*I mean there was always likely to be a dip, after Sir Alex Ferguson retired, but might it have been a brief one, not an ongoing, extended one, without the Glazer family behond the scenes.
 

Dave Smith

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Problem isn't no trophies in four years, the problem is one Tier 1 trophy in a decade.

For me, club trophies are broken into four categories:

Tier 1
PL and CL

Tier 2
Europa and FA Cup

Tier 3
League cup + Conference Cup (from this year)

Tier 4
Super Cup, Club World Cup and Community Shield

Since 2012, which is now 10 seasons, Utd have:

1 PL, 1 FA Cup, 1 Europa, 1 League Cup

The problem here is that the drop from Tier 1 to Tier 2 is massive and much more than the drop from Tier 2 to Tier 4. Tier 1 is all the big players are interested in and what will sway them. I recognise that the FA Cup and Europa used to be a lot bigger but these days, they are typically used for development or second string players until the QF or SF and even then the better development/second string players will continue to play in the SF/Final.

This for me is a big issue owing to the nature of football. A decade is a seriously long time as whole cohorts of footballers have gone through their development knowing Utd only as a team that win top trophies very irregularly. I mean those boys that were between 7-13 at the start of 2011-12 will not really have seen Utd win a top trophy during their most impressionable years.
 

Murray3007

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the trophy aspect don't really bother me to much, my biggest concern is we have never once got near a title challenge since SAF left, if we had won 1 league cup in the past 4 years would it really have affected anything ? no not really for me,
 

JebelSherif

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the trophy aspect don't really bother me to much, my biggest concern is we have never once got near a title challenge since SAF left, if we had won 1 league cup in the past 4 years would it really have affected anything ? no not really for me,
Right, what I am going to say now will be deeply hated by many who read it (please don't ban me), but here goes - as I think it is relevant and needs to be discussed. The current problems at Man Utd. can't be totally blamed on OGS, Jose Mourinho, Louis Van Gaal or indeed David Moyes. Sir Alex Ferguson is where it can all be traced back to. His utter genius papered over the cracks for I reckon the last 3-5 years of his reign, but really, there was under-investment in the team for many many years and whomever followed on from Sir Alex, was destined to fail. I don't think he knew this at the time, had he done so he would have advocated that Jose Mourinho succeed him (lol), not a fellow Scot, however, that doesn't excuse him from some of the blame.

I was reminded of this yesterday when I saw that West Ham have just signed David Moyes on a new 3 year deal and I say fair play to him, he was badly shafted by Man Utd. Talk about a poisened chalice.

At some point in the next few years and this is controversial I know, (younger) Man Utd. fans are going to feel a little bit uncomfortable sitting in the 'Sir Alex Ferguson Stand', because although he brought the team 20 years of success, if what he did towards the end leads to 20 years of failure, questions might be asked and what I mean by that is, the change of ownership in 2005 & how much was SAF involved?
 

DeviIrua

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Right, what I am going to say now will be deeply hated by many who read it (please don't ban me), but here goes - as I think it is relevant and needs to be discussed. The current problems at Man Utd. can't be totally blamed on OGS, Jose Mourinho, Louis Van Gaal or indeed David Moyes. Sir Alex Ferguson is where it can all be traced back to. His utter genius papered over the cracks for I reckon the last 3-5 years of his reign, but really, there was under-investment in the team for many many years and whomever followed on from Sir Alex, was destined to fail. I don't think he knew this at the time, had he done so he would have advocated that Jose Mourinho succeed him (lol), not a fellow Scot, however, that doesn't excuse him from some of the blame.

I was reminded of this yesterday when I saw that West Ham have just signed David Moyes on a new 3 year deal and I say fair play to him, he was badly shafted by Man Utd. Talk about a poisened chalice.

At some point in the next few years and this is controversial I know, (younger) Man Utd. fans are going to feel a little bit uncomfortable sitting in the 'Sir Alex Ferguson Stand', because although he brought the team 20 years of success, if what he did towards the end leads to 20 years of failure, questions might be asked and what I mean by that is, the change of ownership in 2005 & how much was SAF involved?
Funny how the cafe has all these Newbies supposedly following non rival clubs, yet all so emotionally invested in disrespecting United.


So this one even going as far as telling us that future fans "are going to feel a little bit uncomfortable sitting in the 'Sir Alex Ferguson Stand'". Now for a Huddersfield fan to be this emotionally invested in United makes very little sense.

It's obviously a club fan who considers United a rival. I believe there is an infestation of the Abudhabi plastic trolls who are here to disrespect United and attempt to legitimise the corrupt plastic project at the Emptihad.


Let's call them out when we suspect them. Newbies claiming to be a football "Fan of no club in particular", is a giveaway too.
 

maximus419

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Right, what I am going to say now will be deeply hated by many who read it (please don't ban me), but here goes - as I think it is relevant and needs to be discussed. The current problems at Man Utd. can't be totally blamed on OGS, Jose Mourinho, Louis Van Gaal or indeed David Moyes. Sir Alex Ferguson is where it can all be traced back to. His utter genius papered over the cracks for I reckon the last 3-5 years of his reign, but really, there was under-investment in the team for many many years and whomever followed on from Sir Alex, was destined to fail. I don't think he knew this at the time, had he done so he would have advocated that Jose Mourinho succeed him (lol), not a fellow Scot, however, that doesn't excuse him from some of the blame.

I was reminded of this yesterday when I saw that West Ham have just signed David Moyes on a new 3 year deal and I say fair play to him, he was badly shafted by Man Utd. Talk about a poisened chalice.

At some point in the next few years and this is controversial I know, (younger) Man Utd. fans are going to feel a little bit uncomfortable sitting in the 'Sir Alex Ferguson Stand', because although he brought the team 20 years of success, if what he did towards the end leads to 20 years of failure, questions might be asked and what I mean by that is, the change of ownership in 2005 & how much was SAF involved?
I highly doubt any real fan is going to blame SAF for anything to do with the club after his retirement.

He isn't responsible for anything, that is down to the owners and Woodward. How SAF chose to run the club under his stewardship was his right, after 25 years in the job, his boots were always going to be too big to fill. His job was to win football matches, nothing else.

However blaming him now because of the club's previous lack of ambition, failure to invest, or buying the wrong players and hiring the wrong managers is like blaming the labour govt for the way the Tories have handled Covid!
 

Josep Dowling

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For me it’s about signing the right players, the best managers and have a good youth system. We lack in all departments.

All our signings are obvious and we spent way too much money on these targets. There is a complete lack of foresight on doing sensible deals like free transfers. If you take our transfer window last season. We miss out on Sancho at £110m, then proceed to spend £80m on players that didn’t improve the team. Cavani was free all summer yet we waited until the last minute to sign him, by which point he wasn’t ready to start the season. We sign two young RW yet this season we go back to attempting to sign Sancho. Sancho is 21. How exactly is Amad going to get games then if we expect Sancho to be around for 10 plus years? That’s poor planning and frankly just wasting money. That money could be the difference this summer in getting a CB for example. Same for Van De Beek as well. Why sign a player of his calibre if you have no intention of starting him? We know full well he isn’t going to be happy sitting on the bench and no doubt sell him at a loss just to get rid of an unhappy player. How did we sell Lukaku at a loss and now he’s one of the highest goal scorers in Europe. Letting go of Zaha and Depay for peanuts. Why not loan them out?

And what can we say about Ole and the coaching staff? Ole isn’t a winning manager and I don’t care how much people say the team has progressed under him ultimately he keeps falling short when it really matters. He lost us that Europa League final in the end, not making a single change until after extra time. Knowing De Gea can’t save penalties but doesn’t sub him for the shoot out. Be cut throat in decision making. Other games like PSG when it was obvious Fred needed to come off, he didn’t make the change and Fred then gets himself sent off. Going a goal behind all season. Conceding goals from set pieces all season. Some of this stuff is pretty basic yet the team never learnt. The club should be looking to hire the best manager that is available. I would give time to a manager with a prior record of success but Ole doesn’t have that. Prior to that we hired Moyes, a past it Van Gaal and Mourinho. These aren’t the best managers available.

And our youth system. Can we honestly say it’s that good? The likes of Rashford and Greenwood get way more games than their actual talent. Both wouldn’t even start for England is everyone was fit. Rashford is treated like a super star, and paid accordingly. He’s been rubbish for half the season. All the other players getting games simply shouldn’t be in the first team. The likes of Brandon Williams I expect will be playing in the Championship soon. How is Lingard still on our books? The club hasn’t produced a Foden level of talent since the 90s. The only one you could argue is Pogba but when you spend £90m to get him back to the club I don’t think you can regard that successful and goes back to my point about transfers.
 
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JebelSherif

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However blaming him now because of the club's previous lack of ambition, failure to invest, or buying the wrong players and hiring the wrong managers is like blaming the labour govt for the way the Tories have handled Covid!
Thats a good analogy I suppose, but if I may respond - there are people in the country (the polls indicate this) who despite all the covid cock-ups, still think Boris and the Tories can do no wrong - mainly cos they got Brexit done, for one thing. Similarly, the majority of Man Utd. fans feel the same about Sir Alex Ferguson and I can understand that, because even when he had to bring Scholes out of retirement instead of buying a new wc midfielder, he still won things. All I am asking is this: we saw on 2nd May - thousands of fans demonstrating against the Glazer family's ownership at Old Trafford, but that change of ownership occured whilst Sir Alex was the main guy, did he object to it? did he facilitate it in some way? and did he personally benefit from it. If so, he can't really be totally excluded from criticism of the state of the club now, if as many people say its to do with the American owners who are happy with top-4 year after year and don't really crave cups and titles, like the fans do.
 

Glory Glory Man Utd

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How does it explain that it's been 4 years that we have won more trophies it is true that we recruit players like Cavani, Bruno but I believe that it is not enough to win trophies like the Premier league or the league champions ... We really need to recruit world-class players like for example Ronaldo and Sancho etc but Chelsea do it we can do it too of course I am confident for next season that we will finally win a trophy if we recruit well.
 

28gunsalute

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Considering the massive amount of money the managers have been given to strengthen the squad and the abysmal signings they have made it's an absolute disgrace that we can't even manage to win the egg cup (league cup)
Ole is not the man for this job and IF we don't win a trophy in 2021/22 then he has to go, we are becoming the laughing stock of football.
The highly paid and pampered prima donnas don't have to face their work colleagues every Monday morning and have the piss taken out of them week in week out.
They don't get what being a United fan entails, it's a way of LIFE!
 

DeviIrua

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Considering the massive amount of money the managers have been given to strengthen the squad and the abysmal signings they have made it's an absolute disgrace that we can't even manage to win the egg cup (league cup)
Ole is not the man for this job and IF we don't win a trophy in 2021/22 then he has to go, we are becoming the laughing stock of football.
The highly paid and pampered prima donnas don't have to face their work colleagues every Monday morning and have the piss taken out of them week in week out.
They don't get what being a United fan entails, it's a way of LIFE!
The highly paid and pampered prima donnas don't have to face their work colleagues every Monday morning and have the piss taken out of them week in week out.

It's so obvious you're not United.

Obviously it's yet another Bitter troll account, so please guys don't waste your time replying to this fake i.d. The bitter's obsession with our club really is remarkable.
 

JebelSherif

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The highly paid and pampered prima donnas don't have to face their work colleagues every Monday morning and have the piss taken out of them week in week out.

It's so obvious you're not United.

Obviously it's yet another Bitter troll account, so please guys don't waste your time replying to this fake i.d. The bitter's obsession with our club really is remarkable.
Hang on, if you accuse 28gunsalute of that, how come it's only your third message, whilst they have made 78?
 

el3mel

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New posters who have just signed few days ago fighting each other in this thread. You love to see it.
 

DeviIrua

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New posters who have just signed few days ago fighting each other in this thread. You love to see it.
Read their fake i.d. history. Both Bitters obviously. They usually claim to be United fans, or some neutral I.e. non rival fan, like 'no club in particular' or Huddersfield Town, then post a load of bitter bile re United's players etc...full of personal bitter that no real Huddersfield fan would ever feel re United.
UAE paid trolls.