8 minutes and 46 seconds kneel

MackRobinson

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Let us know when you stop reacting like an emotional child.
Imagine how dense a person has to be to think that highlighting this is a human rights issue and not a political one equates to acting like an emotional child. If the harsh tone got your panties in a bunch I'm glad. That was the intent b/c none of you need to be coddled.

I guess its harder to sit in India and blindly support PL tradition, rather than be a black man in America and support any show of solidarity for a human rights issue.
 

TheReligion

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Imagine how dense a person has to be to think that highlighting this is a human rights issue and not a political one equates to acting like an emotional child. If the harsh tone got your panties in a bunch I'm glad. That was the intent b/c none of you need to be coddled.

I guess its harder to sit in India and blindly support PL tradition, rather than be a black man in America and support any show of solidarity for a human rights issue.
I appreciate this is an important and emotional subject to you but I'd suggest taking a time out and popping in the football forum for a while.

It won't do any good throwing insults about and getting personal. It will just dilute some of the valid points you're making.
 

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Yet you are in another thread clamoring that PL shouldn't start. Can't even make this stuff up.
I fail to see the relation between my views on restarting the PL, and how best to display our discontent at the murder of George Floyd as they are entirely separate issues.

You scousers are a strange bunch :)
 

amolbhatia50k

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Imagine how dense a person has to be to think that highlighting this is a human rights issue and not a political one equates to acting like an emotional child. If the harsh tone got your panties in a bunch I'm glad. That was the intent b/c none of you need to be coddled.

I guess its harder to sit in India and blindly support PL tradition, rather than be a black man in America and support any show of solidarity for a human rights issue.
Yes, being a black man in America is the only difficult situation to be in the world. Sorry I don't need to be coddled. But I need to point out when you're behaving like an irrational 12 year old. Most of the people you're quoting and responding like a tool to, are sensible and on the right side of the greater issue. They just happen to disagree on the kneeling suggestion. I agree with the cause completely but don't believe it needs to be institutionalised. Players like Sancho who feel strongly on a personal level are already making their views heard. Now if you can be a grown up for five minutes you might actually have a constructive conversation with somebody.
 

Andycoleno9

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Like I said, you just want to feel comfortable watching a football. If you don't care about racism that fine but not everyone is a nihilist. Some people actually give a shit. Some people actually realize there are things bigger than the sanctity of sporting events. Racism and discrimination aren't just a US problem (which is pretty fecking obvious if you watch football) and football isn't so sacred that it should shun solidarity or awareness in order to allow people like fps to feel comfortable in his safe space watching entertainment.

Actually, I feel pretty damn powerful. I volunteer in my community, donate to causes I care about, and am part of network of people with the resources, time, and motivation to counteract nihilists like yourself. Don't project your weakness on those of us actually doing attempting to change an amoral system that has claimed many lives. Cheers.
Good post (little harsh saying to someone that he doesn't care for racism though) and you have my respect for last part.
But (there is always but) you must respect the fact that people don't care for some things when they are not part of their lives. And you, me and anybody else can't blame them for that.
And it works globally. Few years ago we had two terrorist attacks; one in France and one in middle east. After France attack western countries were in full support to France (remember France flags on FB and France NT around Europe before football games?). After other attack...nothing. It was short story in news.
Some people want (lets call it a privilege) to live their lives and they have right to not care for racism in USA, situation in Iraq or Syria, Tibet, gay rights etc....

And no, i am not that kind of person. But i respect that people can choose for what they will care or what they will think about something (supporting or doing bad shit of course is not included).
 
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MackRobinson

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I appreciate this is an important and emotional subject to you but I'd suggest taking a time out and popping in the football forum for a while.

It won't do any good throwing insults about and getting personal. It will just dilute some of the valid points you're making.
I think I'll speak when I want to. If you have an issue, feel free to report me to mods. Has nothing to do with emotion. I'm actually quite calm while writing all of this and it has nothing to do with emotion. I shouldn't have to make calls for basic empathy and human rights more palatable for adults on the internet.

Like I said to the other poster, the harsh language is intended and warranted. If anyone feels the points are diluted b/c I didn't put an arm on their shoulder first that's a personal issue. I'm perfectly fine with people getting offended by replies to their own insensitive comments.
 

MackRobinson

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I fail to see the relation between my views on restarting the PL, and how best to display our discontent at the murder of George Floyd as they are entirely separate issues.
"It's not safe to start the PL!!! But if you do isn't inappropriate to show solidarity for 9 minutes!!"
Tone. Deaf.

(not in the mood for your Scouser schtick)
 

TheReligion

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I think I'll speak when I want to. If you have an issue, feel free to report me to mods. Has nothing to do with emotion. I'm actually quite calm while writing all of this and it has nothing to do with emotion. I shouldn't have to make calls for basic empathy and human rights more palatable for adults on the internet.

Like I said to the other poster, the harsh language is intended and warranted. If anyone feels the points are diluted b/c I didn't put an arm on their shoulder first that's a personal issue. I'm perfectly fine with people getting offended by replies to their own insensitive comments.
If I had an issue you'd most certainly know about it. I was simply offering some advice as your tone doesn't appear calm and seems quite argumentative. You obviously have some valid points and good personal insight which would be interesting to hear if made in a more constructive and less aggressive way.

Anyway do as you please.
 

MackRobinson

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Yes, being a black man in America is the only difficult situation to be in the world. Sorry I don't need to be coddled. But I need to point out when you're behaving like an irrational 12 year old. Most of the people you're quoting and responding like a tool to, are sensible and on the right side of the greater issue. They just happen to disagree on the kneeling suggestion. I agree with the cause completely but don't believe it needs to be institutionalised. Players like Sancho who feel strongly on a personal level are already making their views heard. Now if you can be a grown up for five minutes you might actually have a constructive conversation with somebody.
Not surprising you lead with a whataboutism and strawman, but I'm dying with laughter that you think showing solidarity for 9 minutes before a match "institutionalized". Then you have the nerve to call for a constructive conversation when you replied to a post you were not quoted in by referring to the OP as an "emotional child". @TheReligion post was an attempt at a constructive conversation. Your posts, however, are a moshpit of deflections and trash statements.

"Institutionalized" Good grief.
 

RedRover

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James Mc Clean is the Stoke player, and I for one couldn’t care less if a player wants to make a protest for something they believe in, like Shaqiri doing the eagle symbol at the World Cup or Matic not wearing a poppy don’t see anything wrong with it..
Thanks.

And that's fine but not everyone would agree. Protesting against racism will not be controversial because everyone who is right thinking will agree, but other issues are far less clear cut. I think we'd probably agree that it's unacceptable for Di Canio to run to the fans (as he did in Italy) raising a fascist salute. Again, for most probably fairly clear cut, but on other issues, not so much.

Some clubs (including United) have supported this across social media and good on them for it. Any players who want to, likewise. I just don't agree with making football overtly political and mandating people to get involved.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Not surprising you lead with a whataboutism and strawman, but I'm dying with laughter that you think showing solidarity for 9 minutes before a match "institutionalized". Then you have the nerve to call for a constructive conversation when you replied to a post you were not quoted in by referring to the OP as an "emotional child". @TheReligion post was an attempt at a constructive conversation. Your posts, however, are a moshpit of deflections and trash statements.

"Institutionalized" Good grief.
You're making a complete fool of yourself because you can't deal with an opposing view. Carry on I guess with your ranting and raving. 'Dying with laughter' says the internet keyboard warrior of the thread.

Let's make kneeling for 8.34 minutes mandatory everywhere. Everyone must play their part in this cause or else they're horrible people with no empathy. Sounds like facism to me when one can't take anything but their logic followed
 

RedRover

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Showing solidarity against racism isn't politics :confused: It's just the right thing to do.
I agree, and as I have said in a post above, United (and other clubs) have made their stance clear, as have a lot of players over social media. The game is not ignoring this issue. Players are free to use their influence to further that cause if they wish. They are showing solidarity.

As I said, some players will be personally confident enough and feel strongly enough to do so. Others will not, and that should be respected. There should be no obligation on someone to put themselves in a position they are uncomfortable with, in the same way that there is no requirement for you or I to do it overtly.
 

MackRobinson

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You're making a complete fool of yourself because you can't deal with an opposing view. Carry on I guess with your ranting and raving. 'Dying with laughter' says the internet keyboard warrior of the thread.

Let's make kneeling for 8.34 minutes mandatory everywhere.
Everyone must play their part in this cause or else they're horrible people with no empathy. Sounds like facism to me when one can't take anything but their logic followed
Dying with laughter b/c
a) You are trying to argue a show of solidarity is being "institutionalized"
b) Where is all this energy when moments of silence and gestures of solidarity routinely happen in the PL?
c) You are so uninformed that you somehow liken a show of support to those affected by racism to fascism.

If you knew what you were talking about you would find your comments quite hilarious as well.

"You're making a complete fool of yourself"
You should appreciate that the irony of that statement is not lost on me.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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The right part is debatable
I'm not saying everyone should go out and protest, but if you see it in real life, we should speak out and call them out. Being sient in face of overt racism isn't really a good thing.

Dante Alighieri said:
The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality
 

VP

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It has nothing to fecking do with politics. It's about humanity and civil rights. A man had his life snuffed out for 9 minutes in a crowd of people on social media, and most likely the only reason his killers will be held accountable is b/c a teenage girl happened to record what happened.

Yet the people above want to hide behind anonymity and whataboutisms in order dehumanize this man just so they can feel comfortable watching a football match.

Let me know when you decide to grow up from being a selfish prick into an empathetic human being.
Feck off - I didn't say anything remotely close to what you're implying and even clarified it later. This isn't the YouTube comments section or Twitter - try to engage with what people are actually saying.
 

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@TheReligion @Random Task

I will concede that my tone is harsh, but you need to realize that I and many others like me are tired of having to "be understanding" and "kindly explain" to non-blacks when it comes to race. This is part of the reason why people are so enraged. Lots of black people are tired of having to pretend we are explaining right and wrong to 3-year-olds instead of grown adults every time this shit happens. They are tired of people treating certain institutions such as sports as sacred cows that must be free from anything that promotes social awareness, while people get treated like wild animals simply for having skin with a darker pigment.

With that said, this is not an emotional response. I, and may like me, are conciously choosing not to repeat the constant cycle of being the non-threatening negro who huddles his well-intentioned non-black counterparts around a campfire while he tells them a nursery rhyme about race. If any adult with a moral compass doesn't understand the message behind the tone, I simply don't care.

Either you give a shit enough to seek the information about these grievances or you don't. If you do, good, if not, don't expect us to give a shit enough to protect your sacred safe spaces like PL football.
 

MackRobinson

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Feck off - I didn't say anything remotely close to what you're implying and even clarified it later. This isn't the YouTube comments section or Twitter - try to engage with what people are actually saying.
You first. Racial discrimination isn't only a US issue. It's a worldwide issue (as we've seen in football). Your comment is still tone-deaf and silly.
 

Random Task

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"It's not safe to start the PL!!! But if you do isn't inappropriate to show solidarity for 9 minutes!!"
Tone. Deaf.

(not in the mood for your Scouser schtick)
Still not seeing the connection.

In any case, I never said a show of solidarity was inappropriate. Only that disrupting a football match for 9 minutes seems like an unnecessary action when a minute's silence in recognition of the incident would suffice, as it always has in the past.

You have this angsty way about you, by the way. Try not to force your opinions on people and you will recieve a better response in kind.
 

TheReligion

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@TheReligion @Random Task

I will concede that my tone is harsh, but you need to realize that I and many others like me are tired of having to "be understanding" and "kindly explain" to non-blacks when it comes to race. This is part of the reason why people are so enraged. Lots of black people are tired of having to pretend we are explaining right and wrong to 3-year-olds instead of grown adults every time this shit happens. They are tired of people treating certain institutions such as sports as sacred cows that must be free from anything that promotes social awareness, while people get treated like wild animals simply for having skin with a darker pigment.

With that said, this is not an emotional response. I, and may like me, are conciously choosing not to repeat the constant cycle of being the non-threatening negro who huddles his well-intentioned non-black counterparts around a campfire while he tells them a nursery rhyme about race. If any adult with a moral compass doesn't understand the message behind the tone, I simply don't care.

Either you give a shit enough to seek the information about these grievances or you don't. If you do, good, if not, don't expect us to give a shit enough to protect your sacred safe spaces like PL football.
You don't have to concede anything pal. As I said I fully understand why your tone is as such as I can't even imagine what its like to be subjected to racism whilst being ignored for so long.

I simply don't want you to dilute your own views by coming on too strong as what you're saying won't get heard and an argument will sidetrack matters away from such an important and deep rooted problem.
 

MackRobinson

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Still not seeing the connection.

In any case, I never said a show of solidarity was inappropriate. Only that disrupting a football match for 9 minutes seems like an unnecessary action when a minute's silence in recognition of the incident would suffice, as it always has in the past.

You have this angsty way about you, by the way. Try not to force your opinions on people and you will recieve a better response in kind.
This incorrectly assumes I give a shit about kind responses.
 

Random Task

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@TheReligion @Random Task

I will concede that my tone is harsh, but you need to realize that I and many others like me are tired of having to "be understanding" and "kindly explain" to non-blacks when it comes to race. This is part of the reason why people are so enraged. Lots of black people are tired of having to pretend we are explaining right and wrong to 3-year-olds instead of grown adults every time this shit happens. They are tired of people treating certain institutions such as sports as sacred cows that must be free from anything that promotes social awareness, while people get treated like wild animals simply for having skin with a darker pigment.

With that said, this is not an emotional response. I, and may like me, are conciously choosing not to repeat the constant cycle of being the non-threatening negro who huddles his well-intentioned non-black counterparts around a campfire while he tells them a nursery rhyme about race. If any adult with a moral compass doesn't understand the message behind the tone, I simply don't care.

Either you give a shit enough to seek the information about these grievances or you don't. If you do, good, if not, don't expect us to give a shit enough to protect your sacred safe spaces like PL football.
I get your frustration but please lay off with the condescending tone. Thanks.

The effects of racism on society are not exclusive to black people or men of colour in general. I'm a white guy and I despise the concept of racism and the complete and utter ignorance of the fools who peddle it.
 

Random Task

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This incorrectly assumes I give a shit about kind responses.
You misunderstood me.

I meant if you're less forceful with your opinions, and perhaps appreciate other peoples opinions at the same time, you will likely receive a similar response in kind - rather than a kind response.
 

MackRobinson

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You should give a shit about understanding the English language given in kind is not the same as kind.
You compared kneeling for 9 minutes with fascism and complained it would be institutionalized (and you spelling it wrong) yet you‘re giving me a lecture on the English language. Rich.
 

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When the football restarts in the premier league, the most watched football league in the world, players should take a knee for 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

We're seeing TV stations and the sort do such.

Before anyone mentions the issue being on America, racism is very much alive in our bigoted little island.
The problem with that idea is that the premier League isn't a single group with a collective mindset. I imagine some of the players don't give a toss about racism in America or elsewhere, whilst others of course will care deeply.

A 60 second silence and some black armbands are much easier to palette
 

amolbhatia50k

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@TheReligion @Random Task

I will concede that my tone is harsh, but you need to realize that I and many others like me are tired of having to "be understanding" and "kindly explain" to non-blacks when it comes to race. This is part of the reason why people are so enraged. Lots of black people are tired of having to pretend we are explaining right and wrong to 3-year-olds instead of grown adults every time this shit happens. They are tired of people treating certain institutions such as sports as sacred cows that must be free from anything that promotes social awareness, while people get treated like wild animals simply for having skin with a darker pigment.
.
None of us disagree with that. Sport shouldn't be completely isolated from social issues. And anyone who is discriminated against should be supported in their cause - it happens based on religion, colour, sex, nationality and more and to varying extents all across the globe.

It's just that some feel it doesn't have to be part of a PL initiative given the multiplicity of problems right now in the world and the difficulty to 'prioritise' them. For you this is THE issue that matters. For someone else, there might be others. So that opens up a Pandora's box for me. But it's always good to see players speak up and spread awareness though their own initiative.

Also, the 8 minute thing is just absurd and unecessary, even if it were to happen. A minute would suffice.

Either way, there's no real reason for there to be ONE answer to this question with nothing else making any sense. It can go either way. It's subjective. And there can be multiple.

I'd be enraged if someone didn't actually support the cause not whether they think footballers shouldn't spend 8 minutes kneeling on the pitch
 

amolbhatia50k

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You compared kneeling for 9 minutes with fascism and complained it would be institutionalized (and you spelling it wrong) yet you‘re giving me a lecture on the English language. Rich.
It's more a lesson in comprehension.

I compared being unable to deal with anybody disagreeing with you, as fascist. It's a common trait in those governments but that's fairly off topic, really.
 

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I get your frustration but please lay off with the condescending tone. Thanks.

The effects of racism on society are not exclusive to black people or men of colour in general. I'm a white guy and I despise the concept of racism and the complete and utter ignorance of the fools who peddle it.
If you honestly feel that’s condescending then I don’t know what to tell you. I merely explained the reasons for my tone. Never said I was going to change my tone.

Also I never said the racism was exclusive to black people and that isn’t a relevant to the current discussion. In fact, I‘ve argued that it‘s not even exclusive to black Americans (which is why the PL showing a gesture of support is a good thing). The only thing I‘ve highlighted is the hypocrisy and inconsistent reasoning being parroted by a minority of people in this thread.
 

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It's more a lesson in comprehension.

I compared being unable to deal with anybody disagreeing with you, as fascist. It's a common trait in those governments but that's fairly off topic, really.
That isn’t the definition of fascism either but I digress and don’t care anyone
 

Deery

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Thanks.

And that's fine but not everyone would agree. Protesting against racism will not be controversial because everyone who is right thinking will agree, but other issues are far less clear cut. I think we'd probably agree that it's unacceptable for Di Canio to run to the fans (as he did in Italy) raising a fascist salute. Again, for most probably fairly clear cut, but on other issues, not so much.

Some clubs (including United) have supported this across social media and good on them for it. Any players who want to, likewise. I just don't agree with making football overtly political and mandating people to get involved.
Fair enough...

But the point of protest is to give a minority a platform for the world to see and there is few bigger platforms than the premier league.
 

Tel074

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What happened to that fella was a shame & disgrace. But terrible things happen every day all over the world.

Imo sport should stick with sport & not make political statements regardless of how well intended they are. I go to football to forget about life for a few hours.

Individuals within sport can lend their support outside of the game & any right minded person would support them in doing that.

Just my 2 cents

I agree and for me the whole poppy thing should never have been introduced into football either
 

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We are all very welcome to take a stand against racism any time. That doesn't mean it has to permeate everything. Anti-racism campaigns do actually already permeate football.


Tiananmen Square? I think a lot of people will struggle to remember the poor man's name in a year. I think of Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing. That was a mark in the sand too. And it's 30 years ago. The vast majority of people said "No more" longly and loudly a long time ago. And yet more continues to happen. This thre


There are many things which you can do which do not involve a football match to make a difference to this. I do not wish British sporting events to sway with commemorations for each major tragic event which hits the media. It is ignorant of the nature of the world, and the terrible things which happen in it, everywhere, all the time. In a year's time, most people will not remember this man's name, as they have forgotten Oscar Grant's name and many others'. That is life. I very clearly stated that the anti-racism message should be a constant, and not tied to specific events, and also that my concern was that many would think racism was something which took people's lives in other countries and ignore the millions of smaller issues of racism which tie into systemic racism right here in Britain. Your response to all this is a real lashing out that probably comes from a feeling of powerlessness in the face of awful tragedy. Well, that is the world, I'm afraid.
Defeatist attitude, if it were not for the many struggles and decades of fighting for a more equal world we would have black people sitting on the back of the bus and working separately from White people.

Thankfully there are many with a backbone to fight for what is right even if it means they don’t reap the benefit in their own lifetime it has an accumulative effect. It’s a progression that is painfully slow and made all the more harder and more difficult by people with your apathetic outlook.
 

VP

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You first. Racial discrimination isn't only a US issue. It's a worldwide issue (as we've seen in football). Your comment is still tone-deaf and silly.
I said there's racism in the UK and implied that should be the focus of a UK-based organization like the Premier League.

This is a global issue and global awareness is important but this is also an issue that manifests itself differently in different places so needs to be addressed locally. I fear that a protest at the global level may be less powerful than local protests since no one is held accountable in the UK for this.
 

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I think a minutes silence or something would be in order, but 9 minutes of kneeling seems a bit over the top. Or maybe something like we've seen on twitter with all the players kneeling down to have a team photo or something.
 

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And I am sick of everyone jumping the gun and encouraging what's happening blatantly cherrypicking certain details to fit their agenda. George Floyd is being painted as some sort of Saint right now but the reality is that he was far from it. How about the cop who was shot by protesters? Nobody is talking about it because they are too busy "protesting". Footballers just like many other athletes and professionals do a lot of anti-racism campaigns and they should stick to doing that but they should not be involved in individual accidents like this.
I'm not sure anyone is advocating he was a saint. He did not deserve to have his life taken in such circumstances. The protests are not just about George Floyd, but the oppression of many centuries encountered by our black brothers and sisters. Basically, enough is enough! They are no lesser human beings than everybody else on earth.

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."

Martin L King Junior
 

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This is an unbelievable post, no one is cherrypicking to fit agendas, this isn't about agendas it's about human rights, that's not politics, or agenda - it's the right to go about your business without being murdered by the state.

"George Floyd is being painted as some sort of Saint right now but the reality is that he was far from it" George Floyd probably wasn't a saint, who the feck is. But he was a man who possibly used a fake $20 note to buy some ciggies and he was murdered by the police for it. If you think standing against that is cherry picking to fit an agenda then fair enough.

"How about the cop who was shot by protesters?" Yes one policeman was shot and killed and his colleague injured, but using that as a reason why people can not protest for basic human rights is frankly ridiculous. If you want to go down the "how about" route, how about Michael Brown, how about Freddie Gray, how about Philando Castlie, Eric Garner, Jamar Clarke the list goes on and on and on as one protestor put it yesterday, "the names change but the co,our of their skin doesn't". The rate for black men being killed by police is on average 3-5 times higher per year than white men.

This is no "individual accident" and it's appalling that you would describe it as that. A policeman knelt on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds and carried for at least 2 minutes after they couldn't find a pulse. That's not an accident it's fecking murder.

And as for footballers, they can do or protest what they want, if they want to kneel for for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, then good on them, it doesn't need the likes of you telling them what they should and shouldn't be involved in. Should Colin Kaepernick have just got on with it and ignored the police brutality and the Black Lives Matter movement, because the incidents were "individual accidents" that they shouldn't get involved with?

A fecking appalling post
I hope some of what he posted was due to English not being his main language. If he meant what we've all understood then it's a despicable post.
 

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Mar 19, 2007
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8,299
Fair enough...

But the point of protest is to give a minority a platform for the world to see and there is few bigger platforms than the premier league.
That's true. As I say, no issue with players on a personal level using their popularity to do so. It no doubt has an impact.