90+ points....

bosnian_red

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Just focus on ourselves. Still too soon for us for a proper title challenge next year, but we should target 80+ points with a good challenge in the CL as I think we are more set up for cups than we are for year long consistency. Get a comfortable top 4 finish and building and then aim for a challenge in 21/22, as our squad is still very young.
 

Revan

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It's not, United 07/08 was better than any City or Liverpool side in recent years. That was a season where English sides were utterly dominant in the CL (only English sides knocked out English sides that season).
True. At the same time, it was also a time when the bottom 10 was pretty crap, compared to now when they are better than ever (mostly cause of money advantage they have which allow them to sign great players and managers, but recently, also because England is producing good players again).
 

Bojan11

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Read somewhere Liverpool had the record for most games won by a one goal margin. That would be impossible to maintain.


True. At the same time, it was also a time when the bottom 10 was pretty crap, compared to now when they are better than ever (mostly cause of money advantage they have which allow them to sign great players and managers, but recently, also because England is producing good players again).
You could argue the big four games were tougher though and the league was closer. Even though Chelsea were second. Arsenal has that meltdown after Eduardo incident and then we killed their hopes in April with Hargreaves free kick.
 

b82REZ

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On a related note... if we got 76 pts do we think Ole would deserve another shot, lets say if we got 4th or 3rd again?
I think we have to see an improvement in points total, which hopefully translates to a better position overall. We have been lucky to qualify for CL with the points totals we've amassed and I would imagine it'll take more points next season to get fourth.
 

Offside

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Who knows our consistency these past 6 months has been pretty good. Don’t think we will be competing for the Championship just yet though.
 

RazorOz

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True. At the same time, it was also a time when the bottom 10 was pretty crap, compared to now when they are better than ever (mostly cause of money advantage they have which allow them to sign great players and managers, but recently, also because England is producing good players again).
The bottom 10 are still pretty crap, they are no better today than they were in 2008. Teams like Middlesbrough and Fulham were bottom half when they made the UEFA Cup final in the 2000s, hard to imagine the equivalent teams of today getting anywhere near the Europa League final.
 

Crashoutcassius

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76 would be nice IMO, that would actually be measurable progress (unlike this year when IMO it was more other clubs fecking up rather than us improving that much).

I would like to think that we should get 80+ and that should be the target, but 76 points would definitely be a decent improvement.
that's true re: this season, but I do think all 66 point seasons aren't born equal. If we were top at christmas and had 66 points by the end of the year i'd be more disappointed. fact is we were nowhere at christmas and top in the second half of the season - feels better since it is the more recent form I guess, and a season of two halves rather than muddling along with similar momentum all season
 

Spiersey

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I’m not convinced that any team bar City or Liverpool can reach that benchmark regardless of signings.

Ole is way too limited tactically to ever reach that benchmark. He still has zero real game plan for breaking down deep lying teams bar hoping for individual quality. With city it is clear what their plans are as well as Liverpool. Ole isn’t good enough to reach that points total.

I think the same may apply to Lampard also however I won’t state it with confidence until I see how he gets on with players that he has bought. Chelsea do lack any real creativity along with a clinical striker so that could possibly be solved. Jury is still out for me on it though.
 

Crashoutcassius

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I thought it was interesting that Ole highlighted that we will have a more demanding schedule next season after the match today. He didn't say 'so we will sign 5 players' he said he would have higher demands, but good that he is recognising that
 

Bojan11

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With Bruno, Sancho and few others we can reach 80 plus.

Look at the silly losses we had this year.

Watford, Newcastle, West Ham and Bournemouth we lost all without scoring.That’s what happens when you rely on Lingard and Pereira.

We lost to Palace and Burnley at home. We not going to win every home game, but draws to Southampton, Everton and West Ham were disappointing.

Ole will also need to use the squad. In the Europa league group stages you can rest players. But champions league you cannot do that.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Ole is way too limited tactically to ever reach that benchmark. He still has zero real game plan for breaking down deep lying teams bar hoping for individual quality. With city it is clear what their plans are as well as Liverpool. Ole isn’t good enough to reach that points total.
It's hard to agree just because we broke teams down very consistently in the second half of the season and with players that were previously called not good enough over 2-5 seasons at the club. If we could just rely on individual magic, why didn't that work for Jose
 

Crashoutcassius

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With Bruno, Sancho and few others we can reach 80 plus.

Look at the silly losses we had this year.

Watford, Newcastle, West Ham and Bournemouth we lost all without scoring.That’s what happens when you rely on Lingard and Pereira.

We lost to Palace and Burnley at home. We not going to win every home game, but draws to Southampton, Everton and West Ham were disappointing.
jesus CHRIST i read sanchez the first five times
 

Revan

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that's true re: this season, but I do think all 66 point seasons aren't born equal. If we were top at christmas and had 66 points by the end of the year i'd be more disappointed. fact is we were nowhere at christmas and top in the second half of the season - feels better since it is the more recent form I guess, and a season of two halves rather than muddling along with similar momentum all season
Sure, our second half of the season was very good, would have given us possibly second if we played the entire season like that. Every game matters though, all 38 of them, and we finished with the same points as last season.

While it is nice to pretend that points matter and we improved so much, we are doing ourselves a disservice if we don't consider that we are in UCL cause other teams fecked up. And well, they probably won't feck up again, so I would be very uncomfortable on reaching 4th next season with points in the sixties. We need 75 points to be comfortable.
 

Crustanoid

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Its down to Ed and the Glazers to put their hands in their pocket. Otherwise no chance. Given our stature we should have regularly been hitting over 90 past few seasons but instead those that run the club buried their heads in the hands whilst lining their pockets
 

Cal?

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True. At the same time, it was also a time when the bottom 10 was pretty crap, compared to now when they are better than ever (mostly cause of money advantage they have which allow them to sign great players and managers, but recently, also because England is producing good players again).
The point of the league is always to finish top, not to amass the highest number of points possible. Until any team wins the PL and CL in the same season like we did in 99 and 08, there's no comparison to be had.
 

Revan

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The point of the league is always to finish top, not to amass the highest number of points possible. Until any team wins the PL and CL in the same season like we did in 99 and 08, there's no comparison to be had.
Thank you for the valuable insight, I would have never guessed it.

It also has not much to do with what we are discussing here.
 

humdinger

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We did absolutely brilliantly to finish 3rd. But we’re miles off seriously challenging and mounting 90 odd points.

I’ll be really happy if we finish 3rd again next season.
 

Revan

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Its down to Ed and the Glazers to put their hands in their pocket. Otherwise no chance. Given our stature we should have regularly been hitting over 90 past few seasons but instead those that run the club buried their heads in the hands whilst lining their pockets
Money was spent. Only Barca and City (not sure for the later) outspent us. The problem was that we wasted too much money on average players, and that resulted with a team of misfits brought for different systems that cannot play with each other.
 

wolvored

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This is a bit much to think about at the moment. Get close to 80 points and finish comfortably third, being close to second and this will be a good season next year.
Agree. our aim must be to get 80+ points next term, then think of winning it the season after.
 

Cal?

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Thank you for the valuable insight, I would have never guessed it.

It also has not much to do with what we are discussing here.
How is it not relevant to the original point you made? :confused:
I know that it is blasphemy to say that, but it is perfectly possible that Pep's CIty and Klopp's Liverpool are better than any United side.

I mean, in one hand we have the 'EPL is stronger than ever brigade' backed by the insane level of spending. Midtable clubs can outspend any non-English club except 7-10 teams or so. In the other hand, we have record-breaking points from City/Liverpool but yet we don't give them credit for being better than United of the past. Both of these things cannot be true, right?

For what is worth, I think the main reason is that football has become more attacking, and this means top clubs have a higher chance of finishing the other clubs. You have good attackers, you win the match.
 

DRJosh

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. A top 3 finish next season (with Sancho and a CB) and a decent run into the quarter finals of the Champion's League would be a monumental achievement.

I really think that the points total for any given season is poor metric to measure team progress given the vast amount of variables involved.

Consistency on the other hand is a better measure. We've had some consistency since the restart but our current backline doesn't always inspire confidence. Maguire needs a good rest and Lindelof has had patches of good form but nothing more.
 

Revan

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How is it not relevant to the original point you made? :confused:
Because having better achievements does not make something better. Newton has bigger achievements than any modern physicist, but if you telentransport him in modern era, he would look like a total idiot even compared to undergraduate students.

Luka Modric has better individual achievements than Xavi, and Owen won a Ballon D'Or that Henry was unable to do. I guess Owen > Henry.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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If we extrapolate our 2nd half form, we'd get 76 points in the season. Still ways to go before 90+.

I think the above 2 images also illustrate just how bad we were in the 1st half and Leicester's incredible collapse.

Still need to turn some of those draws into wins. Won't be easy at all.
 

Cal?

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Because having better achievements does not make something better. Newton has bigger achievements than any modern physicist, but if you telentransport him in modern era, he would look like a total idiot even compared to undergraduate students.

Luka Modric has better individual achievements than Xavi, and Owen won a Ballon D'Or that Henry was unable to do. I guess Owen > Henry.
2008 wasn't that long ago, I'd wager most people will argue the Barca 09 side will be able to take on any team in the current era.

I'm arguing that United 2008, if they time travelled to these few years, would be better than City or Liverpool's 100/99 point sides.
 

Revan

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2008 wasn't that long ago, I'd wager most people will argue the Barca 09 side will be able to take on any team in the current era.

I'm arguing that United 2008, if they time travelled to these few years, would be better than City or Liverpool's 100/99 point sides.
Liverpool missed for a point last year doing the double. And even in the case of United, it is very hard to argue that we were better in 2007-2008 than the following season. The only difference that we did the double in one but not the other season, was that we faced Riijkard's Barca, nor Pep's Barca in 2008. If Terry didn't miss, would that team had become weaker? Was Chelsea in 2012 the best team in Europe?

Yes, achievements matter and definitely they are important. A team that wins titles is greater than one who doesn't. But it is necessarily better? I don't think so. Similarly, I don't think that United in 2008 was as consistent than Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool, so I don't think they would have won the league against these teams. And United in 99 would have finished 15 points below or so. Put this City on the nineties, and it takes the piss out of the league, most clubs would look amateurs in comparison and would struggle to get 20% possession.
 

Cal?

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Liverpool missed for a point last year doing the double. And even in the case of United, it is very hard to argue that we were better in 2007-2008 than the following season. The only difference that we did the double in one but not the other season, was that we faced Riijkard's Barca, nor Pep's Barca in 2008. If Terry didn't miss, would that team had become weaker? Was Chelsea in 2012 the best team in Europe?

Yes, achievements matter and definitely they are important. A team that wins titles is greater than one who doesn't. But it is necessarily better? I don't think so. Similarly, I don't think that United in 2008 was as consistent than Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool, so I don't think they would have won the league against these teams. And United in 99 would have finished 15 points below or so. Put this City on the nineties, and it takes the piss out of the league, most clubs would look amateurs in comparison and would struggle to get 20% possession.
The main reason for not doing the double in 2009 was the utter incompetence of one Ovebro. :mad:

I'd wager United 08 wins more often than not in one-off games against these City or Liverpool sides.

Anyway, the game changed a lot since the 90s, but I'm not sure if it's changed that much from late 00s.

Barcelona 12/13 got more points than their 2009 side and that MSN side, were they the best out of the 3 Barca sides?