A Foundation has been built

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
18,234
From De gea , Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Mctom and Wout to

Onana, De Light, Martinez, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Zirkzee.

On a technical and footballing level we have improved. Let's not get into bashing the former players (and some still here) but I think when you look at things like passing, close control, football IQ, the second group is clearly better.

Even if ETH gets sacked at the end of the year, we have a decent young team that is headed in the right direction.

This is without mentioning the likes of Amad,Mainoo, Yoro, Rasmus and Garnacho.

A foundation has been built.
 
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(rashford 27) - Hojlund (21)/Zirkzee (23) - Garnacho (20)/Amad (21)
Mainoo (19) - Ugarte (23) - (bruno 30)
Dalot (25) - Martinez (26) - De Ligt (25) - Mazraoui (27)
Onana (28)

I always feel we are just one world class goal scoring CAM and one world class goal scoring LW away from complete building a title challenging possession based team. (contrary to beliefs of many members here, a goalscoring CF is not necessary, only two teams in the world got an insane goalscoring CF).

This season we controlled most games just lacked the cutting edge due to the absence of real world class players.

Add Kvaratskhelia (23) and either Musiala(21)/Wirtz(21) we will back to a top team. - and a young team too!

Bruno loses possessions for fun, rashford is too soft and patchy (his ball retention is poor too)

We should act fast and finish our rebuild next summer, otherwise we will waste the prime years of our back 4.
 
Desert Eagle said:
From De gea , Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Mctom and Wout to

Onana, De Light, Martinez, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Zirkzee.

On a technical and footballing level we have improved. Let's not get into bashing the former players (and some still here) but I think when you look at things like passing, close control, football IQ, the second group is clearly better.

Even if ETH gets sacked at the end of the year, we have a decent young team that is headed in the right direction.

This is without mentioning the likes of Amad,Mainoo, Rasmus and Garnacho.

A foundation has been built.
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I would say the the foundation is being built. Still a few players short. I think next summer will be key. We need to take decisions on some players, namely Maguire, Rashford, Bruno, Shaw, Anthony and Casemiro. All of whom (except Antony) are above 27.
 
I wonder, is it a nine two foundation? :confused:

OP is correct though. Erik has been building for 2 years, clearing out and reshaping the squad - now we can see clearly his vision at last. The football in the first half at Palace was excellent, long may that continue. We need Rasmus up to speed again and add the goals we are missing then you will see us fly once more. The future is bright, the future is bald.
 
You are correct. I’ve felt for awhile that ETH will probably end up missing out on alot of hard work he’s done , he is effectively the man we needed, not the one people wanted. The steward of the club as it slowly , properly turns itself around but he just may run out of time.

As frustrating as things have been you can clearly see the kind of football he wants them playing. The style so many have been calling out for is there and all we have lacked this year is the finishing.
 
Most promising of the summer window just past, seems that Ineos have identified exactly who needs replacing in the squad and then gone on and replaced them with seemingly upgrades in ability and age! Long may that continue.
 
We really cling on to positivity. Yeah the ages look great, but really.... Klopp was playing attractive football with Liverpool in half the time and I'm sure less money spent ffs.
 
JeffFromHK said:
(rashford 27) - Hojlund (21)/Zirkzee (23) - Garnacho (20)/Amad (21)
Mainoo (19) - Ugarte (23) - (bruno 30)
Dalot (25) - Martinez (26) - De Ligt (25) - Mazraoui (27)
Onana (28)

I always feel we are just one world class goal scoring CAM and one world class goal scoring LW away from complete building a title challenging possession based team. (contrary to beliefs of many members here, a goalscoring CF is not necessary, only two teams in the world got an insane goalscoring CF).

This season we controlled most games just lacked the cutting edge due to the absence of real world class players.

Add Kvaratskhelia (23) and either Musiala(21)/Wirtz(21) we will back to a top team. - and a young team too!

Bruno loses possessions for fun, rashford is too soft and patchy (his ball retention is poor too)

We should act fast and finish our rebuild next summer, otherwise we will waste the prime years of our back 4.
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I couldn't agree more. I think we still need another midfielder as well but once we upgrade those two positions we will be so much better.
 
The squad is stronger this season indeed, plenty of options, Eriksen was basically not selected to start for first 3 games and suddenly he is back in the last 2 games, we are still missing Shaw, Malacia & Yoro which will add a lot more depth to the defense, and we have a core of midfielders that we can rotate around (Bruno, Mainoo, Cas, Mount, Ugarte, Eriksen, Collyer) and with Hojlund coming back, we have 5 good to very good forward players in Hojlund, Amad, Rashford, Garnacho, & Zirk.

we might need to let few players go next summer, like Lindelof, Evans, maybe Eriksen and Cas too, Antony is an expensive flop, and I would rather we bring in an experienced left-footed RW (Mbeumo, or Edwards) to compete with Amad and let Antony go.

What remains to be seen is for EtH to build a style that suits the team, the Palace game showed us how this team can dominate and even introduce subs that can affect the game (not saying Hojlund & Rashford had a positive impact as subs vs Palace but the fact that they were options on the bench means there is a potential in the bench options).

Early days but let's see how this develops game on game.
 
I'd like to think we've to an extent decided to build from back to front given the focus was clearly given to the defence in the transfer window just past. Ugarte has come in as well as a mobile defensive midfielder so we're well covered there.

I'm actually a bit surprised that generally the midfield has looked decent the last few games with Eriksen and Mainoo. They are both good technically and can take care of the ball. Remains to be seen whether they'll get overrun by better teams though. My guess would be they will so we could do with another couple of midfielders who are good on the ball but strong physically too.

The attack is a big problem, our most dangerous wingers being Garnacho and Diallo at the minute. Hojlund and Zirkzee so inexperienced as well, that's essentially why there will be a lack of goals. The likes of Rashford, Antony and Sancho when he was here just don't deliver to the required level, they should have and then the youngsters would have been the talented impact subs, Ten Hag is pretty much forced to play them though because at least they put themselves about and can make something happen.

I think we have plenty youngsters now and need to bring in a few more high quality, more experienced players into the midfield and attack over the next two seasons, the young players will be maturing then and we should be in a strong position.
 
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We can only hope at this point that it is a step forward this time. We have been creaming our pants over a bunch of additions over the years without really taking the big step forward we expected initially.
I do feel confident however that the days of signing washed up players for big money because of their name and previous highs is over. Also, offering money well over a players actual value is probably a thing of the past. And i also don`t think we will offer silly contract extensions to players not really adding much to the team anymore.

So, things will most likely improve over time.
 
I like to think we have built a good solid foundation to build on but i am not going to get carried away as we have been here before.
I remember when our squad had the like of Shaw, Martial, Depay, Schneiderlin, De Gea, Rojo, Januzaj....... This was supposed to be a young nucleus to build around and we all know how that turned out.
 
SungSam7 said:
We really cling on to positivity. Yeah the ages look great, but really.... Klopp was playing attractive football with Liverpool in half the time and I'm sure less money spent ffs.
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False equivalence. Our squad was in far worse shape when ETH started, and Klopp didn’t have the Glazers and their cronies to deal with.

Also your point is irrelevant in the context of the OP. Regardless of how long it’s taken we HAVE built a foundation for future success.

Finally, of course we cling to positivity. After all we all want the club to succeed and progress, don’t we?
 
I agree with this, I really think people have ignored the job ETH has done with clearing out absolute years of deadwood. The squad is in so much better a place now, especially if a couple of our left backs manage to play football one day.

There are questions for sure, largely around Bruno, Casemiro and Rashford, but we can still do well with this squad now.

We should be top 4 this year.
 
It's certainly a good, pretty young base that we're building.

We still need some more 'higher levels' to start challenging for the highest honours, but we've definitely raised the bottom and middle levels of the squad in general.

The fact that our 'deadwood' to be cleared out next summer is now the likes of Casemiro, Antony, Maguire, Lindelof is a good example of how we've raised the lower level. That's really quite good level deadwood compared to past years.

Still plenty of work to do - especially that tricky balance of how to improve our goal scoring without losing the improved solid base we seem to have developed defensively. It's quite easy to do one or the other - tighten defensively (at the cost of attacking threat), or go much more attacking (but at the cost of being more exposed defensively).

Becoming that all round team that is effective going forward while being pretty solid defensively is always the toughest balance to strike.
 
You can forgive people for not getting too excited about a foundation being built 11 years on and £1.3bn+ from SAF.
 
Wolfbot said:
I'd like to think we've to an extent decided to build from back to front given the focus was clearly given to the defence in the transfer window just past. Ugarte has come in as well as a mobile defensive midfielder so we're well covered there.

I'm actually a bit surprised that generally the midfield has looked decent the last few games with Eriksen and Mainoo. They are both good technically and can take care of the ball. Remains to be seen whether they'll get overrun by better teams though. My guess would be they will so we could do with another couple of midfielders who are good on the ball but strong physically too.

The attack is a big problem, our most dangerous wingers being Garnacho and Diallo at the minute. Hojlund and Zirkzee so inexperienced as well, that's essentially why there will be a lack of goals. The likes of Rashford, Antony and Sancho when he was here just don't deliver to the required level, they should have and then the youngsters would have been the talented impact subs, Ten Hag is pretty much forced to play them though because at least they put themselves about and can make something happen.

I think we have plenty youngsters now and need to bring in a few more high quality, more experienced players into the midfield and attack over the next two seasons, the young players will be maturing then and we shouldn't be in a strong position.
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The Eriksen example baffles me tbh.

He's been a good signing and filled a role well which absolutely everything about Eric's football suggests is what you need. It's also been clear since the first season that he doesn't have the legs to do it against everybody, nor to play week in week out.

So how on earth are we still in a position where Eriksen is the only player who can actually do it? Yes it was well publicised we wanted De Jong in the first season, but since there it's either been no 10s or holders with nothing in between. It's genuinely bizarre to me that 3rd season and the best option is still a signing who probably also is better off playing as a 10 further forward.
 
Plant0x84 said:
False equivalence. Our squad was in far worse shape when ETH started, and Klopp didn’t have the Glazers and their cronies to deal with.

Also your point is irrelevant in the context of the OP. Regardless of how long it’s taken we HAVE built a foundation for future success.

Finally, of course we cling to positivity. After all we all want the club to succeed and progress, don’t we?
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Well said. Plenty of reasons to look forward to the future with the rebuilding that has occurred

I've been looking forward to our next match every week to see how the squad is progressing and of course, the result. It has been a long time since I've felt like this about football .
 
Jippy said:
You can forgive people for not getting too excited about a foundation being built 11 years on and £1.3bn+ from SAF.
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It only really started getting built from about 4 or so years ago if we're being honest.

Yes, the cumulative time since SAF left is longer, but whatever we were doing before was not building foundations (even if that's what Ed might have thought).
 
I like this way of positive thinking but Ugarte and Zirkzee still need to be tested (Mazra looks great already). Serious question marks on Hojlund.

Actually the biggest worry now is how to move out highest paid players in Casemiro, Bruno Rashford, or what to do with them.
 
Plant0x84 said:
False equivalence. Our squad was in far worse shape when ETH started, and Klopp didn’t have the Glazers and their cronies to deal with.

Also your point is irrelevant in the context of the OP. Regardless of how long it’s taken we HAVE built a foundation for future success.

Finally, of course we cling to positivity. After all we all want the club to succeed and progress, don’t we?
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Does not give an excuse that after 3 years, the team tactically hasn't moved forward. Last season was a disaster and any manager worth their salt is able to make do with the cards he is dealt with.
 
Against Palace, I found the disintegration of control once Zirkzee, then Amad, the Eriksen (?) left extremely alarming. It took us back to last season levels basically.

It just exposes the issues we've had. Going forward we must find ways to balance the calm controlling options with the direct, risky ones.
 
Borys said:
I like this way of positive thinking but Ugarte and Zirkzee still need to be tested (Mazra looks great already). Serious question marks on Hojlund.

Actually the biggest worry now is how to move out highest paid players in Casemiro, Bruno Rashford, or what to do with them.
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I don't think Bruno is going anywhere.
Casemiro - likely with us until his Contract expires summer '26. But will now be a bench / rotation option.
Rashford - might be for sale next summer unless he can push on and get back in form.
 
SungSam7 said:
Does not give an excuse that after 3 years, the team tactically hasn't moved forward. Last season was a disaster and any manager worth their salt is able to make do with the cards he is dealt with.
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Overly harsh, the team has changed massively in the last 3 years and how they play has definitely changed as well, it developed massively in that first season, you must be able to see the difference between the team that lost 4-0 to us in his first league game to the team that drew 0-0 with Palace on Saturday.

As for "any manager worth their salt should make do" you're taking last season out of context massively. It was a poor season by United standards, but set against the backdrop of the club possibly being sold, no one knowing their future at Man Utd from the tea ladies to the manager, that has a huge effect.

On top of that an unnaturally large injury list, no manager just sails through that and makes do, they all struggle, we saw the same for RDZ, for Klopp in fact I can't think of one manager that just carries on despite injuries to key players. Half of the football world thinks Arsenal will win the premier league now because of Rodri's injury, but no one is saying that despite his huge squad and unlimited funds Pep is suddenly a shite manager. Losing key players means results suffer.

ETH has certainly made some bad decisions and mistakes along the way, but he's also made good ones that are often ignored. He's not the shit manager a lot of posters here seem to think he is, though he hasn't shown himself to be one of the all time best either.
 
Desert Eagle said:
From De gea , Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Mctom and Wout to

Onana, De Light, Martinez, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Zirkzee.

On a technical and footballing level we have improved. Let's not get into bashing the former players (and some still here) but I think when you look at things like passing, close control, football IQ, the second group is clearly better.

Even if ETH gets sacked at the end of the year, we have a decent young team that is headed in the right direction.

This is without mentioning the likes of Amad,Mainoo, Yoro, Rasmus and Garnacho.

A foundation has been built.
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I would agree as long as we remind ourselves that "the team" isn't just the names on the team sheet but also what their plan is, how they have their roles defined and understood and which level of synergies has been achieved. I am still a bit worried, whether we are still more or less the same team from two years ago just with a few exchanged players that actually "do their job". I'd also say that those developments seem very delicate right now, seeing how quickly we seem to revert back to old habits. obviously that is going to be expected but there is still a long way to go to really challenge.
 
Desert Eagle said:
From De gea , Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Mctom and Wout to

Onana, De Light, Martinez, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Zirkzee.
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This feels a bit disingenuous, no? Especially including a loan signing like Wout.

We went from:
De Gea, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, Ronaldo
to
Onana, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Dalot, Ugarte and Zirkzee

The players have gone younger, but I'm not convinced they're better. Not yet at least. Overall I feel that we're an immature side and it especially shows in attack, but progress in football is not linear and not every sub 23yo player will develop into a top talent. In fact we've gotten so many over the years that just turn into deadwood before they enter their peak years. You don't need to look any further than Rashford and Martial who were once the up and coming guys but most supporters couldn't wait to see their backs off right now.
 
NZT-One said:
I would agree as long as we remind ourselves that "the team" isn't just the names on the team sheet but also what their plan is, how they have their roles defined and understood and which level of synergies has been achieved. I am still a bit worried, whether we are still more or less the same team from two years ago just with a few exchanged players that actually "do their job". I'd also say that those developments seem very delicate right now, seeing how quickly we seem to revert back to old habits. obviously that is going to be expected but there is still a long way to go to really challenge.
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I mean Onana is a disaster waiting to happen..we are surprised when he makes a save
Licha is Ok.
The others have just arrived ...
Let's wait
 
The Boy said:
Overly harsh, the team has changed massively in the last 3 years and how they play has definitely changed as well, it developed massively in that first season, you must be able to see the difference between the team that lost 4-0 to us in his first league game to the team that drew 0-0 with Palace on Saturday.

As for "any manager worth their salt should make do" you're taking last season out of context massively. It was a poor season by United standards, but set against the backdrop of the club possibly being sold, no one knowing their future at Man Utd from the tea ladies to the manager, that has a huge effect.

On top of that an unnaturally large injury list, no manager just sails through that and makes do, they all struggle, we saw the same for RDZ, for Klopp in fact I can't think of one manager that just carries on despite injuries to key players. Half of the football world thinks Arsenal will win the premier league now because of Rodri's injury, but no one is saying that despite his huge squad and unlimited funds Pep is suddenly a shite manager. Losing key players means results suffer.

ETH has certainly made some bad decisions and mistakes along the way, but he's also made good ones that are often ignored. He's not the shit manager a lot of posters here seem to think he is, though he hasn't shown himself to be one of the all time best either.
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Holy shit!! Are you sure you're a Brighton fan?? Talking that much sense in this place. :nervous:
 
Desert Eagle said:
From De gea , Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Mctom and Wout to

Onana, De Light, Martinez, Mazraoui, Ugarte and Zirkzee.

On a technical and footballing level we have improved. Let's not get into bashing the former players (and some still here) but I think when you look at things like passing, close control, football IQ, the second group is clearly better.

Even if ETH gets sacked at the end of the year, we have a decent young team that is headed in the right direction.

This is without mentioning the likes of Amad,Mainoo, Yoro, Rasmus and Garnacho.

A foundation has been built.
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I feel like we wrote these posts when we got Bailly, Matic, Lukaku and Pogba. This club has been such a disappointment for so long its hard to be optimistic about anything.
 
I'm reminded of one of my favourite lyrics:

When the house was standing
You'd never have believed it
When the house was standing
You'd never have believed
That gaping hole was once a foundation
Where you stand now were tools in the basement
How can you say forever is at your command?
How can you say the future's in the palm, in the palm of your hand?
 
SungSam7 said:
We really cling on to positivity. Yeah the ages look great, but really.... Klopp was playing attractive football with Liverpool in half the time and I'm sure less money spent ffs.
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Sure, cause a 1:1 comparison not taking club structure, culture and recent history into account is very reasonable… ffs indeed
 
DJ Jeff said:
I feel like we wrote these posts when we got Bailly, Matic, Lukaku and Pogba. This club has been such a disappointment for so long its hard to be optimistic about anything.
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The difference is now we have a proper people running the footballing side. Back then we rewarded huge contracts to players who were either half the time injured or were hyped up. I feel the current regime will be more ruthless and will look to scout good players rather than overpaying for average to semi decent players like Maguire or awb or Antony.
 
People thought there were foundations under LVG, then same was said about Ole. We’ve pissed away fortunes under ETH and not got any better.

The biggest change is that there is now a plan above the manager. There is a clear intent to get rid of players and rebuild the squad, that plan will go ahead with or without ETH.

The manager has to improve massively, for vast majority of last season he was inept, he surely is better than last season suggests but running out of time to show it.
 
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