A look at the players.

[USREDEVIL]

Ok Ole hasn't been as good a manager as needed. But the players have often been terrible individually, not just because of the system. Which players are also to blame in large part for the state of United? Forget about how much they are on, whether they have "united DNA" or are big names. Call them out.

Maguire has been shite. Looks drunk sometimes.
Shaw hasn't been great, not sure why he's so off form.
Fred is shite.
McTominay is shite.
With Pogba and Ronaldo, I have mixed feelings. They are quality but are they also creating an imbalance? But is the imbalance more to do with Fred/McT? It's like complaining about the steering when the tires are flat.

 

[Hammondo]

Ok Ole hasn't been as good a manager as needed. But the players have often been terrible individually, not just because of the system. Which players are also to blame in large part for the state of United? Forget about how much they are on, whether they have "united DNA" or are big names. Call them out.

Maguire has been shite. Looks drunk sometimes.
Shaw hasn't been great, not sure why he's so off form.
Fred is shite.
McTominay is shite.
With Pogba and Ronaldo, I have mixed feelings. They are quality but are they also creating an imbalance. But is the imbalance more to do with Fred/McT? It's like complaining about a steering when the tires are flat.

Funny how we are not critical with other players.

 

[VanDeBank]

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

 

[Flytan]

Ok Ole hasn't been as good a manager as needed. But the players have often been terrible individually, not just because of the system. Which players are also to blame in large part for the state of United? Forget about how much they are on, whether they have "united DNA" or are big names. Call them out.

Maguire has been shite. Looks drunk sometimes.
Shaw hasn't been great, not sure why he's so off form.
Fred is shite.
McTominay is shite.
With Pogba and Ronaldo, I have mixed feelings. They are quality but are they also creating an imbalance. But is the imbalance more to do with Fred/McT? It's like complaining about a steering when the tires are flat.

Maguire - Playing unfit, Ole is too much of a coward to play Bailly despite giving him a new contract. Maguire is not the best CB but he's adequate but he's completely shot of any confidence because he isn't captain material and Ole won't give him time to get match fit
Shaw - Ole keeps playing him despite buying a backup who's entire existence was to play when Luke Shaw was injured/not in form. Looks like he's back to his lazy ways multiple previous managers called him out on.
Fred - Mediocre, but other managers would use his strengths in a functioning team. We are not
McTominay - Regressed a lot, used to be mediocre, don't know why or how.

Basically every player has been marginalized by our coaching setup in some way and outside of Shaw (who's a recurring problem under all managers) and Pogba (foot out the door) should have the benefit of the doubt until a competent coaching staff is assembled.

 

[Amadaeus]

when we get a competent manager, you will be surprised how well these players you think are shite will perform. We need to focus on trimming the squad and blooding in some youth. i don’t think no other managers has been backed as much as Ole when you consider how we have multiple world class or top professional warming the bench. Even ferguson didn’t have such a squad. I often see complete deadwood on our bench during the ferguson era, now we can’t even afford to have one on our bench.

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

he is a scapegoat. Fred seems like the only one that was pressing properly against liverpool with little support.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Maguire - Playing unfit, Ole is too much of a coward to play Bailly despite giving him a new contract. Maguire is not the best CB but he's adequate but he's completely shot of any confidence because he isn't captain material and Ole won't give him time to get match fit
Shaw - Ole keeps playing him despite buying a backup who's entire existence was to play when Luke Shaw was injured/not in form. Looks like he's back to his lazy ways multiple previous managers called him out on.
Fred - Mediocre, but other managers would use his strengths in a functioning team. We are not
McTominay - Regressed a lot, used to be mediocre, don't know why or how.

Basically every player has been marginalized by our coaching setup in some way and outside of Shaw (who's a recurring problem under all managers) and Pogba (foot out the door) should have the benefit of the doubt until a competent coaching staff is assembled.

I really started liking McTominay. Was making good runs, pretty good tackler and aggressive like Herrera. Then he started to become anonymous. I'm just curious how much of this is tactics versus their quality/form.

 

[Loony BoB]

Same, @USREDEVIL McTominay was awesome before his injury, I wonder if it's impeding him still?

when we get a competent manager, you will be surprised how well these players you think are shite will perform.

So basically what happened when Ole took over from Jose?

 

[lex talionis]

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

You're a top poster, VDB, but it's out of bounds to associate Fred with Zidane in any way.

 

[Vidyoyo]

when we get a competent manager, you will be surprised how well these players you think are shite will perform. We need to focus on trimming the squad and blooding in some youth. i don’t think no other managers has been backed as much as Ole when you consider how we have multiple world class or top professional warming the bench. Even ferguson didn’t have such a squad. I often see complete deadwood on our bench during the ferguson era, now we can’t even afford to have one on our bench.



he is a scapegoat. Fred seems like the only one that was pressing properly against liverpool with little support.

Good post.

Out of interest, if you could choose any manager in the world - and I mean having absolute free choice on the decision - which one would you pick to replace Ole?

 

[Tomuś]

Maguire and Shaw have both still been probably wanking themselves over the Euros, McT is not good enough and Pogba just can't be trusted week in week out.

I haven’t got too many problems with the rest of regular first teamers.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

Fred will undergo the Jordan Henderson effect under a competent manager.

 

[largelyworried]

When you get a situation like this, where the club is in a doom spiral and the manager is obviously on the way out, there's no point looking at the form of individuals. As we saw when Ole came in, short term form of players can turn around real quick under a new manager. Over time we'll see who's actually good enough and who isn't.

 

[RepardReece]

When you get a situation like this, where the club is in a doom spiral and the manager is obviously on the way out, there's no point looking at the form of individuals. As we saw when Ole came in, short term form of players can turn around real quick under a new manager. Over time we'll see who's actually good enough and who isn't.

Thank you, some intelligence on here at least. Quit whining about the players until we actually have some competence in the coaching roles.

There's a reason why almost every player looks better in internationals (and also at their previous clubs).

 

[DWelbz19]

It’s a good side. It’s pretty imbalanced — we have about 8 wide forwards/attackers and no defensive midfielders — but the quality of this side is enough to be up there.

 

[Amadaeus]

Same, @USREDEVIL McTominay was awesome before his injury, I wonder if it's impeding him still?


So basically what happened when Ole took over from Jose?

The players was fed up of mourinho antics. The players transformation had more to do with having a better environment and morale, rather than anything tactical or philosophical.

Good post.

Out of interest, if you could choose any manager in the world - and I mean having absolute free choice on the decision - which one would you pick to replace Ole?

Klopp is ideal, but is not attainable. The closest would be Pochettino as he has that aura of a more modern ferguson about him. His spurs team revolutionized the pressing system in the premier league and he has good man management capabilities. We need a manager that is tactical well sounds and has good emotional intelligence. Pochettino fits that and I have been saying that for awhile. I feel that Pochettino and bringing Kane to United would have equated to the glory days of United. But unfortunately, we consistently made the wrong choices.

 

[eire-red]

The entire team is playing poor. Some are playing worse than others for sure, but that's just short term form.

But if those you mentioned were having shockers, while the rest of the team was performing then that's a different story.

When an entire team doesn't seem to function, I don't think there's anywhere else you can look other than management and coaches.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'm willing to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt and suggest he looks shit at the moment because he's constantly trying to cover for Maguire's inadequacy.

 

[CallyRed]

Good post.

Out of interest, if you could choose any manager in the world - and I mean having absolute free choice on the decision - which one would you pick to replace Ole?

 

[Vidyoyo]

Klopp is ideal, but is not attainable. The closest would be Pochettino as he has that aura of a more modern ferguson about him. His spurs team revolutionized the pressing system in the premier league and he has good man management capabilities. We need a manager that is tactical well sounds and has good emotional intelligence. Pochettino fits that and I have been saying that for awhile. I feel that Pochettino and bringing Kane to United would have equated to the glory days of United. But unfortunately, we consistently made the wrong choices.

Spoiler

 

[Dobba]

World class to a man.

Until the new guy is announced and then 4-5 of the first eleven will need replacing and we can't judge him until they all are.

 

[USREDEVIL]

When you get a situation like this, where the club is in a doom spiral and the manager is obviously on the way out, there's no point looking at the form of individuals. As we saw when Ole came in, short term form of players can turn around real quick under a new manager. Over time we'll see who's actually good enough and who isn't.

Good point. Not sure we have much time though as we're dangerously dropping down the table.

 

[united_99]

Spoiler

 

[Tom Cato]

Every time we have this discussion I just enjoy the implication that the players don't matter and they will all perform well if given the right manager.

So I suppose now would be a great time to get someone new in and stop spending money.

 

[VanDeBank]

This thread is silly. The manager picks underperforming or half fit favorites despite having an absolutely massive squad. I'll reserve judgement on them once they've worked with a better coach. Goes for everyone, even players I don't particularly like (McTominay and AWB).

You're a top poster, VDB, but it's out of bounds to associate Fred with Zidane in any way.

I wonder where all those posters are that laid into me for daring to criticize Maguire's ability on the ball 3 months ago. I've actually stayed away from criticizing his recent shit show. We're clearly poorly organized and he shouldn't be picked when this out of form or barely fit.

 

[tomaldinho1]

No one on here can claim to know how players would perform under any other managers, what is rational to think is that they could perform at a much better collective level under another coach. Then you can assess where the team can be improved by a select one or two signings.

 

[Irwin99]

AWB has to be added to that list sadly. I don't think he's been a bad signing at all and on his day and doing what he's good at he's fine (getting tight to a tricky winger-e.g., Sterling) but i'm not sure he's a United level fullback the likes of Irwin, Evra, Neville etc. Time is on his side though and he has potential but i'm not sure that was 50 million well spent.

 

[golden_blunder]

The players was fed up of mourinho antics. The players transformation had more to do with having a better environment and morale, rather than anything tactical or philosophical.



Klopp is ideal, but is not attainable. The closest would be Pochettino as he has that aura of a more modern ferguson about him. His spurs team revolutionized the pressing system in the premier league and he has good man management capabilities. We need a manager that is tactical well sounds and has good emotional intelligence. Pochettino fits that and I have been saying that for awhile. I feel that Pochettino and bringing Kane to United would have equated to the glory days of United. But unfortunately, we consistently made the wrong choices.

Kane is playing like injuries are fast catching up and Poch has proven nothing

 

[House Mkhitaryan]

Nearly everyone mentioned has recently been performing at much higher levels with their national team(s) or elsewhere.

• Maguire and Shaw were 2 of the best players at the Euros
• Pogba integral and seemingly the only undroppable player on a loaded France side that just won the Nations Cup
• Ronaldo leading scorer in Serie A and the Euros
• Fred (!) starting for Brazil (where Neymar calls him "World Class" )
• Sancho tearing it up at Dortmund for the last 2-3 years

But now they are all shite? When literally everyone is underperforming, there has to be something wrong with the system.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

That alone is a scary thought.
He's not shit shit but by the standards that you'd expect for a title winning midfielder then yes he's not good enough

 

[VanDeBank]

That alone is a scary thought.
He's not shit shit but by the standards that you'd expect for a title winning midfielder then yes he's not good enough

Long term probably not, but for now the reality is that he's the first name on the team sheet. We're unlikely to buy 2 starting midfielders in the summer, let alone in the winter, and even then he'd be an important squad player.

 

[Amadaeus]

Kane is playing like injuries are fast catching up and Poch has proven nothing

Nuno Santos is a awful manager for spurs at the moment(not getting the best out of kane), and Kane is also have psychological issue from having his move to city scrapped. Kane before this season had one of his best season. He still has a lot to offer and can follow Lewandowski career. Poch got to the final of the champion league with spurs. That achievement is underrated as club who spends billions struggle to make it that far. Moreover, at his first stint at psg(half season, he already won two domestic cup). Let see how he does in his full season at a top club like psg. I feel like he started well, only 1 loss and already beaten one of the best team in Europe.

 

[MadDogg]

That alone is a scary thought.
He's not shit shit but by the standards that you'd expect for a title winning midfielder then yes he's not good enough

Fred is obviously not good enough to be the main man that a title-winning midfield is built around, but he can probably play his part in that midfield. Well, if he can get back into form anyway. He's been quite inconsistent since January so he'd have to get back into the form that he showed for the 18 months before that.

 

[el3mel]

Shaw is Ole's problem. Another manager would have kicked his arse because he feels he has done it all. Ole's way of man management is the reason Shaw is getting worse and worse after just one good season.

 

[Witchking]

Fred is vastly underrated by some "calling him shit". Prime Zidane would look shit if he was a one man midfield. He's easily our best midfielder.

Leave it, redcafe has made their minds. Fred has been a good player for United. Keeps running alone and gets exposed every game. Any midfielder for example Pogba, if asked be the lone box to box, will make mistakes every game. As you say Zidane too.

 

[Blood Mage]

McTominay and Lingard aren't good enough and need to be banished from the first team. Other than those two I'm happy with our squad. Maguire and Wan Bissaka can be upgraded but will start to look decent again under a good coach who can organise our defence.

 

[lex talionis]

I wonder where all those posters are that laid into me for daring to criticize Maguire's ability on the ball 3 months ago. I've actually stayed away from criticizing his recent shit show. We're clearly poorly organized and he shouldn't be picked when this out of form or barely fit.

Your broader point about certain players underperforming -- and others being overly abused -- is well taken, but it's just too much to bear to read Fred being compared to Zidane. Prime Zidane never played, at least not that I know if, even at Fred's peak.

 

[VanDeBank]

Your broader point about certain players underperforming -- and others being overly abused -- is well taken, but it's just too much to bear to read Fred being compared to Zidane. Prime Zidane never played, at least not that I know if, even at Fred's peak.

My point wasn't to compare the two, it was to say that the best midfielder in the world wouldn't look good playing in a one man midfield. Kante would get tiki taka'd to death as well were he surrounded by 3 Liverpool players as if doing a rondo in training.

 

[lex talionis]

My point wasn't to compare the two, it was to say that the best midfielder in the world wouldn't look good playing in a one man midfield. Kante would get tiki taka'd to death as well were he surrounded by 3 Liverpool players as if doing a rondo in training.

That would be a comparison. Prime Zidane would be a massive -- make that existential -- upgrade over Prime Fred and would improve the midfielder substantially over its current decrepit state. Fred -- who's really neither an attacking nor a defensive midfielder, isn't much of a passer or defender. He does bring energy, but to little effect. We saw the energy he brought against Wolves and Everton, admittedly not his finest days, and he got slaughtered as a result. Zidane, on the other hand, was magnificent working out of tight spaces in the middle third and creating chances in the final third. I don't recall much of Zidane in his own third, but surely Prime Zidane could not have been as shambolic as Fred, who's a frightening spectacle to watch in his own third. I can't imagine Zidane every being made by Barcelona to look like a whirligig the way Fred does more often than not.

Fred can be given credit as a decent ball winner, but his distribution is horrendous. Zidane was the antithesis of Fred, perhaps not much of a ball winner but he was one of the greatest ball-playing midfielders. There's no way to prove it, but I suspect Prime Zidane wouldn't have had much trouble with Henderson and Milner, with or without Matic and Pogba alongside him.

 

[Will Singh]

When you’ve not been coached properly then you will make individual errors. I can’t talk for every single player but I’d like to use Maguire and Shaw as an example. For England they knew there job because the coaches nailed it into them and they were fantastic. Now look at them for United…

 

[VanDeBank]

That would be a comparison. Prime Zidane would be a massive -- make that existential -- upgrade over Prime Fred and would improve the midfielder substantially over its current decrepit state. Fred -- who's really neither an attacking nor a defensive midfielder, isn't much of a passer or defender. He does bring energy, but to little effect. We saw the energy he brought against Wolves and Everton, admittedly not his finest days, and he got slaughtered as a result. Zidane, on the other hand, was magnificent working out of tight spaces in the middle third and creating chances in the final third. I don't recall much of Zidane in his own third, but surely Prime Zidane could not have been as shambolic as Fred, who's a frightening spectacle to watch in his own third. I can't imagine Zidane every being made by Barcelona to look like a whirligig the way Fred does more often than not.

Fred can be given credit as a decent ball winner, but his distribution is horrendous. Zidane was the antithesis of Fred, perhaps not much of a ball winner but he was one of the greatest ball-playing midfielders. There's no way to prove it, but I suspect Prime Zidane wouldn't have had much trouble with Henderson and Milner, with or without Matic and Pogba alongside him.

I know how great he was, he was one of my idols growing up.

But my point still stands that if you put Zidane in the middle of 3 bang average opposition players, he can't do feck all. Even if the 3 players include James fecking Milner.
Again I too doubt that Fred is MU starting XI quality, I do however think he is the best in a bad bunch.