A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

dogwithabone

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Can't think of a worse argument in football than he hasn't won any trophies . I am sure no one is lining up to give Arteta a job now because he won the FA cup. Trophies are nice & good but decisions about managers must be made based on overall performances rather than just winning a random cup competition
I think that’s a fair point but at the end of the day you want a winning manager. The fact that Tottenham gave Leicester a free run to the title doesn’t reflect well on him but equally he unquestionably took Spurs up a level in the most competitive of leagues.

He has plenty of appeal though - good age, attractive football, some astute recruitment and would appear to be low maintenance from a boards perspective.
 

Dr. StrangeHate

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Hope I’m wrong, but I think we’re gonna come to regret not moving on Poch.
We may but after consecutive conservative/counter attacking managers in Jose and Ole, if we move on, I want it to be to an attacking manager. I never wanted to particularly watch Tottenham games under Poch like for example I want to watch Leeds or RBL or Pep teams.
 

lysglimt

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Taking over PSG must be both the easiest and worst managerial job there is.

First of all you can walk to titles, and their squad is so strong that you immediately has a decent chance at winning the Champions League.

But at the same time - Leonardo has a lot of power and he doesn't appear to be the easiest person to cooperate with, and rumours indicated that he decided which players both went in and out without listening to Tuchel - and that for instance Moise Kean was a player Tuchel didnt want.

Not to mention - if you as a manager of PSG don't win the league and do really well in the Champions League, you are a complete failure and will be fired immediately. While if you win - you wont really get much credit because you are expected to win.
 

Ecstatic

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Possibly taking over PSG at the worst time in their recent history.

Neymar looking to leave and join Barcelona in the summer.
Mbappe looking to move to Madrid in the summer.

Who are they going to replace those two with? The PSG project has failed, everyone knows the league is a joke and the club tie good players down to massive contracts so they can’t leave after bottling the CL year after year.

He’ll get sacked from this job within 2 years
Both players leaving next summer is just impossible.

The PSG project works because the only French club that would be part of the future European Premier league will be PSG.
 

RkkMan

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Both players leaving next summer is just impossible.

The PSG project works because the only French club that would be part of the future European Premier league will be PSG.
They`ll both have a year left on their deals next summer. If both refuse to renew(which is a genuine possibility) both could leave
 

Ecstatic

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They`ll both have a year left on their deals next summer. If both refuse to renew(which is a genuine possibility) both could leave
I agree with you.

So many PSG players left the club at the end of the contract: Zlatan, Cavani, Rabiot, Menez, Meunier, Motta, Thiago Silva, Kouassi, Maxwell, etc.

Then, you have several players whose contract ends in 2021 like Di Maria, Bernat, Kaiz, etc.

PSG is not the typical club that would let a player under contract go easily and at any price,

They know that if they lose both players next summer, they will never recover.
 

Mr Smith

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I think that’s a fair point but at the end of the day you want a winning manager. The fact that Tottenham gave Leicester a free run to the title doesn’t reflect well on him but equally he unquestionably took Spurs up a level in the most competitive of leagues.

He has plenty of appeal though - good age, attractive football, some astute recruitment and would appear to be low maintenance from a boards perspective.
I feel judging Poch on Spurs' title collapse in 2016 is very harsh considering he was never expected to challenge at the start of that season. It feels like he is judged on this in hindsight given how good Spurs were in the three years following; it's easily forgotten how young and inexperienced that Spurs side were.
 

crossy1686

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I agree with you.

So many PSG players left the club at the end of the contract: Zlatan, Cavani, Rabiot, Menez, Meunier, Motta, Thiago Silva, Kouassi, Maxwell, etc.

Then, you have several players whose contract ends in 2021 like Di Maria, Bernat, Kaiz, etc.

PSG is not the typical club that would let a player under contract go easily and at any price,

They know that if they lose both players next summer, they will never recover.
What’s the motivation for them to stay? The domestic titles mean nothing to the players or anyone outside of France. They won’t win a Ballon d’or playing for PSG.
The quality of opposition they play is mostly poor which means they aren’t developing or being pushed to improve until they play CL games, which historically, they’ve been really poor at when you consider investment.

PSG can want them to stay all they want but if the players don’t want to sign, they’re gone.
 

Ecstatic

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What’s the motivation for them to stay? The domestic titles mean nothing to the players or anyone outside of France. They won’t win a Ballon do’r playing for PSG.
The quality of opposition they play is mostly poor which means they aren’t developing or being pushed to improve until they play CL games, which historically, they’ve been really poor at when you consider investment.

PSG can want them to stay all they want but if the players don’t want to sign, they’re gone.
I have been reading your posts for years and you always write the same things :) The same applies to me to be honest

I would be surprised to see both players gone in 2021 but can be wrong for sure.
 

crossy1686

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I have been reading your posts for years and you always write the same things :) The same applies to me to be honest

I would be surprised to see both players gone in 2021 but can be wrong for sure.
I mean, I wouldn't keep writing the same things about PSG and their players if they didn't keep proving me right.

You're right though, I don't think both will leave, I think Neymar will be tempted to stay once he realises there's not many offers for him and Barcelona can't afford him.
 

cheeky_backheel

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Financial measures like transfer fees, net spend, wages etc are always dubious indirect measures of the quality of players that is avaialble to the manager

The target should be gauging how well the manager has performed given the quality of the squad at his disposal and the opposition that he is up against. Thus (assuming the manager has had enough time to mold the squad to his preferences) one should look to the quality of the squad directly and not focus on how the squad was acquired e.g. Martial earns almost 2x what Son earns - is martial then 2x better than Son? (dont even compare transfer fees). Spurs under Poch, had one of the best squads in the league. (Kudos to their management for acquiring and mainting it under a much lower budget)

During Poch's tenure at Spurs, Chelsea, Leicester, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, and ManUtd, all won one or more domestic silverware.As for getting to the final of cups, its not such a big achievement given that Aston Villa, Crytal Palace, Watford and Southampton, also got to cup finals. Given the quality of players at his disposal, he under perfromed by not winning a single thing.
 

renandstimpyfan83

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He clearly did a good job at Spurs but he absolutely had a team good enough to win the league in 15/16 and 16/17. That he didn't do so doesn't make him an abject failure or anything, but it does mean he's not perfect or even certain to deliver silverware for United in a league I feel is more competitive and at a time where our ability to add talent in the transfer market is more limited.
Spurs had an excellent starting XI (seems weird to say that about a midfield containing Dele, Eriksen and Dier in 2020 but there you go) but their squad depth was pitiful. Their 1-0 loss to West Ham that would have put them level with Leicester saw them start with Chadli, Kevin Wimmer and Ryan Mason. They massively overachieved and it's only the freak Leicester title win that makes it look like a failure.
 

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What’s the motivation for them to stay? The domestic titles mean nothing to the players or anyone outside of France. They won’t win a Ballon d’or playing for PSG.
The quality of opposition they play is mostly poor which means they aren’t developing or being pushed to improve until they play CL games, which historically, they’ve been really poor at when you consider investment.

PSG can want them to stay all they want but if the players don’t want to sign, they’re gone.
Easier league, high salary, great city, life quality? Why these pampered superstars should be bothered at all?
 

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Financial measures like transfer fees, net spend, wages etc are always dubious indirect measures of the quality of players that is avaialble to the manager

The target should be gauging how well the manager has performed given the quality of the squad at his disposal and the opposition that he is up against. Thus (assuming the manager has had enough time to mold the squad to his preferences) one should look to the quality of the squad directly and not focus on how the squad was acquired e.g. Martial earns almost 2x what Son earns - is martial then 2x better than Son? (dont even compare transfer fees). Spurs under Poch, had one of the best squads in the league. (Kudos to their management for acquiring and mainting it under a much lower budget)

During Poch's tenure at Spurs, Chelsea, Leicester, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, and ManUtd, all won one or more domestic silverware.As for getting to the final of cups, its not such a big achievement given that Aston Villa, Crytal Palace, Watford and Southampton, also got to cup finals. Given the quality of players at his disposal, he under perfromed by not winning a single thing.
Spot on.

Spend and net spend are really a poor benchmark for quality. Wages even worse

If i am not mistaken, we gave Sanchez twice the wages that Bruno gets, yet the latter has been vastly better for us.

Poch is a good manager, but this narrative that Spurs were some pub team that he single handedly took to glory needs to die.
 

RkkMan

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I agree with you.

So many PSG players left the club at the end of the contract: Zlatan, Cavani, Rabiot, Menez, Meunier, Motta, Thiago Silva, Kouassi, Maxwell, etc.

Then, you have several players whose contract ends in 2021 like Di Maria, Bernat, Kaiz, etc.

PSG is not the typical club that would let a player under contract go easily and at any price,

They know that if they lose both players next summer, they will never recover.
The players you mentioned that left for free were either not good enough or too old. Mbappe is a next generation super star and Neymar is world class player in his prime losing such players for free is ten times worse than the ones you mentioned
 

Nori-

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Now Poch is going to PSG, I feel like our safety net is gone.

Yes, he's not the only manager out there but he was well suited to how we wanted to play, had Prem experience and was out of a club so ready to start straight away.

We desperately need Ole to do well now
 

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Must just be a strange coincidence that the teams who spend the most on fees and wages are generally always at the top then.
Generally speaking, of course the teams with the most resources tend to have the bettet players and tend to win more

As United fans we have seen a feckload of money wasted the last couple of years so its not like you can just throw money around and then expect to win
 

Wilt

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Now Poch is going to PSG, I feel like our safety net is gone.

Yes, he's not the only manager out there but he was well suited to how we wanted to play, had Prem experience and was out of a club so ready to start straight away.

We desperately need Ole to do well now
Agreed, Poch was probably best suited but there are others, depends on how long Ole lasts and who’s available at the time.
 

Ecstatic

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I mean, I wouldn't keep writing the same things about PSG and their players if they didn't keep proving me right.

You're right though, I don't think both will leave, I think Neymar will be tempted to stay once he realises there's not many offers for him and Barcelona can't afford him.
What you write makes sense.

Neymar will be 28 next February and due to covid 19, there isn't a lot of clubs ready to meet his demands and a pay a fee likely to be superior to 100m. Mbappe is 22 since one week and I don't believe he will renew.

I would like Kylian to join MUFC but believe Real Madrid will capture him.

Let's see :)
 

dogwithabone

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I feel judging Poch on Spurs' title collapse in 2016 is very harsh considering he was never expected to challenge at the start of that season. It feels like he is judged on this in hindsight given how good Spurs were in the three years following; it's easily forgotten how young and inexperienced that Spurs side were.
The ill disciplined capitulation at Chelsea has to be in part down to Poch, not totally to blame but I don’t believe that happens under a manager used to winning and dealing with high pressure situations. Stay calm and calculated in that game and Spurs have a great chance. If Spurs were ‘inexperienced’ then bigger fool him for not surrounding himself with more experienced players who can see the job through.
 

cjj

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That's a little misleading though as the net spend only jumped from 0 to 100m in his last window and he left soon after that so it's not like he ever benefited from it. Plus two of those signings(Lo Celso and Sessegnon) were injured whilst Ndombele was struggling for fitness.
Not at all. The 'net spend' that window was roughly 60m, and the overall calculation didn't even include the loan fees or future fee for Lo Celso. As I say, the 'zero net spend' thing is complete fiction and can be proved as such with a minimal amount of research.

The biggest issue with any argument that a 'net spend' had any impact on his ability is that his success rate and effect has always appeared to be far higher on the cheaper/less reputable players in every role he's had. He's not yet proved that he is an effective coach of big name/big money signings. There are a number of them which were bought for him that regressed under his coaching, but people tend to only take note of the successes and make other excuses for the failures.
 

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What you write makes sense.

Neymar will be 28 next February and due to covid 19, there isn't a lot of clubs ready to meet his demands and a pay a fee likely to be superior to 100m. Mbappe is 22 since one week and I don't believe he will renew.

I would like Kylian to join MUFC but believe Real Madrid will capture him.

Let's see :)
I thought Mbappe wanted to play CF? Not sure if United can offer him that. RW is our priority.

And I’m not even talking about the fact that as a French player he must be dreaming about Zidane... so it would be really surprising.
 

Ecstatic

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I thought Mbappe wanted to play CF? Not sure if United can offer him that. RW is our priority.

And I’m not even talking about the fact that as a French player he must be dreaming about Zidane... so it would be really surprising.
I prefer him as a kind of support striker / forward:
- deployed on the wing in a 433 system: see PSG in the past
- as a support striker in a 442 system: see Monaco with a duo Mbappe-Falcao

If he wants to be a typical CF, then he will have to adjust his game, which may require time
 

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The ill disciplined capitulation at Chelsea has to be in part down to Poch, not totally to blame but I don’t believe that happens under a manager used to winning and dealing with high pressure situations. Stay calm and calculated in that game and Spurs have a great chance. If Spurs were ‘inexperienced’ then bigger fool him for not surrounding himself with more experienced players who can see the job through.
Again, that's very harsh considering no one would have been expecting him to challenge for the title that season. He was building a team for the future, so of course they weren't ready; Poch himself was very new to the job. I don't really understand using that capitulation as a stick to beat him with when it was something he sorted out in subsequent years.
 

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Again, that's very harsh considering no one would have been expecting him to challenge for the title that season. He was building a team for the future, so of course they weren't ready; Poch himself was very new to the job. I don't really understand using that capitulation as a stick to beat him with when it was something he sorted out in subsequent years.
Did he sort it out? How, when? Poch's career is a story of punching above his weight but never actually delivering on the ultimate prizes.
 

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Did he sort it out? How, when? Poch's career is a story of punching above his weight but never actually delivering on the ultimate prizes.
I would agree with you, but I think it's hard to argue he didn't improve his team's maturity over the course of his time there.

I know in football winning is the be all and end all, and that's fair, but I think sometimes we have to acknowledge that as only one team wins, good teams that have done everything right still often miss out. I honestly feel that without a bigger budget, there's really not much more Poch could have done to win titles over a period that saw some of the highest points totals in league history. Is it really Poch's fault he didn't win the league during a period when the teams who did won on 93, 100, and 98 points respectively? Sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and acknowledge that the winners were better.
 

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I would agree with you, but I think it's hard to argue he didn't improve his team's maturity over the course of his time there.

I know in football winning is the be all and end all, and that's fair, but I think sometimes we have to acknowledge that as only one team wins, good teams that have done everything right still often miss out. I honestly feel that without a bigger budget, there's really not much more Poch could have done to win titles over a period that saw some of the highest points totals in league history. Is it really Poch's fault he didn't win the league during a period when the teams who did won on 93, 100, and 98 points respectively? Sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and acknowledge that the winners were better.
I agree, it's unfair that most people only rate the winners. I think there are plenty of great accomplishments that do not end up with a trophy. And he did better than people expected with Spurs but couldn't add a trophy to take the team to another level, have them believe they can actually be a force.

I agree about City's title season but then he completely lost it and it was a spectacular failure that the media decided not to go after. Check his record in the last 12 months of his stint at Tottenham. The CL run did a great job at masking the glaring issues they had. And that run was incredibly lucky (which, admittedly, is something every club needs for success in that tournament) to begin with.
 

Mr Smith

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I agree, it's unfair that most people only rate the winners. I think there are plenty of great accomplishments that do not end up with a trophy. And he did better than people expected with Spurs but couldn't add a trophy to take the team to another level, have them believe they can actually be a force.

I agree about City's title season but then he completely lost it and it was a spectacular failure that the media decided not to go after. Check his record in the last 12 months of his stint at Tottenham. The CL run did a great job at masking the glaring issues they had. And that run was incredibly lucky (which, admittedly, is something every club needs for success in that tournament) to begin with.
That is true, it is hard to argue that things fell apart for him in the last 12 months, the CL run notwithstanding. To me it seemed like the team burnt out due to the intensity fo his methods, actually quite similar to the way Klopp's Dortmund had a massive dip towards the end of his tenure and almost got relegated. I think it will be something to watch with interest in Poch's next job (at this stage likely with PSG), to see if he learns the way Klopp did and moderates his methods so his team doesn't get so burnt out. I think one of the most important modern qualities in a coach is being able to adapt, so I'm really curious to see if he does.
 

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That is true, it is hard to argue that things fell apart for him in the last 12 months, the CL run notwithstanding. To me it seemed like the team burnt out due to the intensity fo his methods, actually quite similar to the way Klopp's Dortmund had a massive dip towards the end of his tenure and almost got relegated. I think it will be something to watch with interest in Poch's next job (at this stage likely with PSG), to see if he learns the way Klopp did and moderates his methods so his team doesn't get so burnt out. I think one of the most important modern qualities in a coach is being able to adapt, so I'm really curious to see if he does.
I doubt he will get PSG to play with the same intensity as he did with Spurs. But let's see. If he gets the job he will add trophies to his resume, surely. Then if he manages to win the CL with them, his stock will jump through the roof.
 

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I agree, it's unfair that most people only rate the winners. I think there are plenty of great accomplishments that do not end up with a trophy. And he did better than people expected with Spurs but couldn't add a trophy to take the team to another level, have them believe they can actually be a force.

I agree about City's title season but then he completely lost it and it was a spectacular failure that the media decided not to go after. Check his record in the last 12 months of his stint at Tottenham. The CL run did a great job at masking the glaring issues they had. And that run was incredibly lucky (which, admittedly, is something every club needs for success in that tournament) to begin with.
Well, no... all the fuss is only about his supposed suitability for tier-1 clubs, the ones that start any given season really expecting to win trophies (the league, domestic cups, a deep run in the european cups). An argument might be made about United not being tier-1 anymore since Ferguson retired, but Mourinho proved a top coach can always get a trophy or two out of a good squad and, more importantly, imho United now has a tier-1 squad again for quality and depth, that making Poch even more unsuitable to their managerial role right now, in case Solskjaer fails.
 

Mr H

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Thank god PSG are gonna hire him. At least we won't hear Poch left and right when the team does not win.
 

Pep's Suit

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Transfer fee+agent fee+wages... Which clubs can afford Neymar or Mbappe this summer? Highly doubt PSG would accept less than £80-90m for each.
 

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Thank god PSG are gonna hire him. At least we won't hear Poch left and right when the team does not win.
I don’t think you have a realistic understanding of United fans and pundits. Instead of ‘we SHOULD get Poch’, it will now be ‘we should HAVE gone for Poch’.
 

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Their collective XI was the strongest of all teams that year. There's a reason why City had to spend a load on FBs following the season and why Chelsea dropped off when they didn't strengthen effectively in the transfer window and had more fixtures with CL.

Wanyama was excellent that season before he became a permacrock. Same for Dembele, who also was excellent before age and injuries impacted his performance.

Kane won Golden Boot, and Alli and Son had 20 plus goals in all comps. Kane, Alli, Walker, and Rose were all in the PFA Team of the Year, joint most with Chelsea.

This is from a Spurs blog itself in their season review:

"The general consensus was that, despite Chelsea winning the title, Tottenham Hotspur were the best team in English football since the start of 2017."

https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnati...30/tottenham-hotspur-2016-17-season-in-review

It absolutely was thought by many they were the strongest team in England that season.

Again, not a massive failure in my eyes they didn't win, but they definitely had more than just a chance for 2 seasons running. After that with City and Liverpool strengthening as they had, and even United performing better in 17/18, I understand the drop off in form in the league to an extent even though there were elements of it I think were concerning.
City spent on FBs because they still had Sagna and Clichy but so what? They were better everywhere else. Who in Spurs team would replace City players then? Chelsea went wrong when they dissed Costa and replaced him with Morata. Near enough every season Costa played he won a title here and in Spain.
Wanyaama has never been excellent and always the most basic of player who you allow to have the ball.

Delle Alli that season was him at 130% and not a true reflection of his talent hence why he is nobody now as he has regressed to the mean. Rose is nobody now also. The point is many of these players had to play above their normal ability (i.e. 130% just to get to 2nd place) they simply were not better players than City or Chelsea but played to their upper limit that year. Look where most of them are 2-3 years later. Rose was dropped, Walker has been promoted, Alli can't get a game and neither can Erikson. Only Kane and Son were truly that great. compare this to Citehs players and where they at now (the ones that were there in 2017).

Spurs fans are known to be delusional so I am not surprised if some of them thought they were the best but it was certainly not the general consensus. Never heard this before ever. They were a team whose early season predictions was always top 4 at best and that was justified. were they ever a bookie favourite for the title?
 

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City spent on FBs because they still had Sagna and Clichy but so what? They were better everywhere else. Who in Spurs team would replace City players then? Chelsea went wrong when they dissed Costa and replaced him with Morata. Near enough every season Costa played he won a title here and in Spain.
They weren't nearly better everywhere else and they certainly didn't play that way that season. Quite literally Spurs entire back 4 and GK was better than City's by a significant margin in that season. Kane was also better than Aguero, so that's 6 positions right there where Spurs had superior talent.

Delle Alli that season was him at 130% and not a true reflection of his talent hence why he is nobody now as he has regressed to the mean. Rose is nobody now also. The point is many of these players had to play above their normal ability (i.e. 130% just to get to 2nd place) they simply were not better players than City or Chelsea but played to their upper limit that year.
Who cares? They played to that ability in that season which is what matters. That team absolutely was every bit good enough to win the title that year and they didn't. The fact that those players have regressed since doesn't change what they were in THAT season which is the original argument, not whether or not what they produced was sustainable beyond that point in time.

Never heard this before ever.
I had and did hear it that season, and for good reason. That Spurs XI was excellent and by every metric they were absolute contenders that season who fell short.
 

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They weren't nearly better everywhere else and they certainly didn't play that way that season. Quite literally Spurs entire back 4 and GK was better than City's by a significant margin in that season. Kane was also better than Aguero, so that's 6 positions right there where Spurs had superior talent.
are any of their defenders better than Kompany? If you were Pep would you have sold Kompany and bought a Spurs CB? Kompany is the best CB between the 2 teams.
If you were Pep and you had the chance, would you have sold Kane and replaced him with Kun? The superior talent point doesn't hold up. Kane is not superior in talent to Kun.


Who cares? They played to that ability in that season which is what matters. That team absolutely was every bit good enough to win the title that year and they didn't. The fact that those players have regressed since doesn't change what they were in THAT season which is the original argument, not whether or not what they produced was sustainable beyond that point in time.



I had and did hear it that season, and for good reason. That Spurs XI was excellent and by every metric they were absolute contenders that season who fell short.
It does matter. Its like Leicester won the league on 82 pts with all their players playing above themselves and at 130%. If thats not their normal standard them how the hell can you expect them to get 94-95 points. Thats basically Spurs. That group of players were never capable of reaching 94-95 pts in a million years. Players rose above their normal level got them 2nd or the 86 pts so everything else is out of reach. You can see where many of the players are at today to get an idea of how good they really are/were. They just rose their game that year like Leicester did. still never a 95 point team.