Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,596
You're more than entitled to your opinion, but I think that view is shaped by what fullbacks have been asked to do in the last 5-10 years. Gone are the days when someone like Neville - never the most explosive attacker - would be the archetypal fullback. Maybe the game is truly moving toward flair players at outside back, but I would be shocked if we don't see some regression to the mean, where a fullback's defending is prized as highly as attacking ability.
No, I mean as a whole attacking game and ability to go past players and deliver a quality cross is more difficult to learn than vice versa.
That being said AWB is young and raw still so he will develop further.

To your second point: I would consider Lahm as a defender first, who improved in the attack as he got older. Javier Zanetti as well, although he never contributed as much to the attack as many modern defenders. Ashley Cole, from my memory (although it's been a long time since he was relevant, and I only tangentially followed his exploits at Arsenal) started out as a rock solid defender and became more and more of a wing back as he entered his peak.
You couldn't be more wrong on Zanetti tho(and actually on both examples). One of my favorite players and he was fantastic going forward. His game evolved exactly in what I mean - when he lost step or two he developed his defensive game and became more conservative. Ashley was wing back for Arsenal and much more attacking in the beginning of his career. Later under Mourinho he became more conservative.
 

Kearnkoff69

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,685
Location
yank
Bissaka isn't even a technical player to begin with. Lahm was a good passer with good vision.
I sadly have to log off, but you are welcome to your opinion of course. Lahm always was a good passer with vision - I never once argued otherwise - but he was not originally the attacking danger from the fullback position that he blossomed into. He started as a technically gifted but - first and foremost - defensively solid player and later became more attack-minded.
 

JJ12

Predicted Portugal, Italy to win Euro 2016, 2020
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
10,841
Location
Wales
Young English talent eh! For 50 million too. I'd take every France player above England's players but for foden and Madison.
Didn't watch the game eh?

France were shit for the majority of that.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
Yep, and they shipped 38 goals. This year, with VVD, they only let in 24 goals. Makes a big difference come the end of the season.
So? Again, being good in attack is not about getting in attacking position, but about what you do when you're in attack.
 

andersj

Nick Powell Expert
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
4,276
Location
Copenhagen
I was about to voice my opinion. Know it will just look knee-jerk.

I’m very worried about this signing. Good thing is, Laird is almost ready..
 

Irrational.

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
32,823
Location
LVG's notebook
FLASH SALE!

Back 2 Skool 10% off!

AWB was £50 million NOW only £45 million!*

Comes with free defensive errors to slot seamlessly into your back four!

Get them whilst stocks last.

*Terms and Conditions apply. Batteries not included. Player will turn to shit once he signs for United. Crystal Palace and Woy Hodgson accept no responsibility for loss of form, ability or performances. Will offer partial refund of 25% excluding P&P if you wish to return faulty player.
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
7,194
I was about to voice my opinion. Know it will just look knee-jerk.

I’m very worried about this signing. Good thing is, Laird is almost ready..
Man, if only he was another year along. Genuinely think he will be brilliant
 

King Andow

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
1,172
Location
Brazil
No left foot, useless going forward, loves a dangerous tackle, suspect passing, expensive, would block Dalot and Laird, no thanks.
 
Last edited:

Kearnkoff69

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,685
Location
yank
No, I mean as a whole attacking game and ability to go past players and deliver a quality cross is more difficult to learn than vice versa.
That being said AWB is young and raw still so he will develop further.



You couldn't be more wrong on Zanetti tho(and actually on both examples). One of my favorite players and he was fantastic going forward. His game evolved exactly in what I mean - when he lost step or two he developed his defensive game and became more conservative. Ashley was wing back for Arsenal and much more attacking in the beginning of his career. Later under Mourinho he became more conservative.
I may be remembering incorrectly about Zanetti - I remember him being a real "pendulum" type player from the fullback position - always kept the ball moving with smart passes. Inter was a real treat to watch those days - I tried to catch as many games as possible.

RE: the bolded statement. To each his own, and you are welcome to disagree with me. I won't argue that one on one ability is mostly innate and extremely hard to teach, but learning how to cross the ball is, in my opinion, far easier to teach than proper defending. I assume that AWB won't have to do too much of beating his man, and will be relied upon as an outlet where he can put crosses into the box (similar to Young the last couple of seasons). If that turns out to be true, it would be a decent outcome if he improved his crossing even if he never improved his one on one ability - although in my opinion for 50M you'd hope to get someone with the potential to improve his overall attacking game.
 

Celoti23-81

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
396
Didn't watch the game eh?

France were shit for the majority of that.
They dominated! They missed 2 penalties! As I will say again, English players are completely over hyped! That's why I think our strategy of signing young British players to fill voids and take us forward will cost us much more than signing young foreign talent! You could tell that they were technically much superior!
 

Kearnkoff69

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,685
Location
yank
So? Again, being good in attack is not about getting in attacking position, but about what you do when you're in attack.
Right, and my point was that he's more likely to improve his crossing ability (i.e. when he's in attack) than an attacking-minded fullback is to improve his defending. He already has a solid defensive foundation to build on, which is phase one of counter-attacking, and if he can improve his crossing he'd be very well suited to that style of play.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,596
I sadly have to log off, but you are welcome to your opinion of course. Lahm always was a good passer with vision - I never once argued otherwise - but he was not originally the attacking danger from the fullback position that he blossomed into. He started as a technically gifted but - first and foremost - defensively solid player and later became more attack-minded.
Not sure I agree with that either tbh :lol: Lahm has always been excellent on the ball. His attacking game developed but rather than fulfilling his overall potential. Even early in his career he popped with a good goal and was generally well engaged in the attacking contribution.

Still a lot closer than Zanetti and Cole, that's for sure.

This is young Pupi against Bologna for example:

 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,596
I may be remembering incorrectly about Zanetti - I remember him being a real "pendulum" type player from the fullback position - always kept the ball moving with smart passes. Inter was a real treat to watch those days - I tried to catch as many games as possible.

RE: the bolded statement. To each his own, and you are welcome to disagree with me. I won't argue that one on one ability is mostly innate and extremely hard to teach, but learning how to cross the ball is, in my opinion, far easier to teach than proper defending. I assume that AWB won't have to do too much of beating his man, and will be relied upon as an outlet where he can put crosses into the box (similar to Young the last couple of seasons). If that turns out to be true, it would be a decent outcome if he improved his crossing even if he never improved his one on one ability - although in my opinion for 50M you'd hope to get someone with the potential to improve his overall attacking game.
Yeah we can agree to disagree on the first notion, mate, no issues. You are definitely wrong about Pupi though, you can search for highlights in the 90's it will be well worth it I promise :)

I'm not against signing AWB, just feel we would definitely need to sign a RW as well if we are to ease him in and develop his game. Also in this way we wouldn't be dependent on him creating in attack, whilst solidifying our back line.

Despite tonight showing (just one off game) we could definitely use him and will improve our backline.
 

Jordan_mufc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2016
Messages
461
CL Final?

And what does it have to do with fullbacks being good in attack?
Before VVD? I don't think so.

The point being when you have two clowns as centre backs, your Full backs have to be able to defend primarily.

Liverpool still let their full backs bomb.forward and they would concede at a rate of knots
 

DownRiver

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
708
How can Liverpool find two nobody fullbacks and become two best fullbacks in the PL?

Why are we buying a fullback that is at BEST good defensively? I really can see Wan Bissaka being sold in three seasons w(Jones and Smalling still being here).
 

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
29,263
Location
Birmingham
Before VVD? I don't think so.

The point being when you have two clowns as centre backs, your Full backs have to be able to defend primarily.

Liverpool still let their full backs bomb.forward and they would concede at a rate of knots
Don't forget their three centre midfielders who are primarily there to defend and cover the wide areas, allowing the full backs to bomb on.
 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
35,216
Location
xG Zombie Nation
They dominated! They missed 2 penalties! As I will say again, English players are completely over hyped! That's why I think our strategy of signing young British players to fill voids and take us forward will cost us much more than signing young foreign talent! You could tell that they were technically much superior!
I think it is pretty absurd to say France were technically superior. England created the best chances with slick play and good movement. Most of their chances before the red came from jumping on defensive mistakes and countering. France looked like a team of athletes out there.
 

sp_107

New Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,367
Location
Yorkshire
Heard UTD fans started an online petition requesting board to get rid of Young, Jones and Smalling. I am afraid they might add AWB to that list I guess after this show ;)
 

Wal2Fra

Full Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
622
Location
Paris
They dominated! They missed 2 penalties! As I will say again, English players are completely over hyped! That's why I think our strategy of signing young British players to fill voids and take us forward will cost us much more than signing young foreign talent! You could tell that they were technically much superior!
Both penalties came against the run of play. England had a goal disallowed and wasted a few good chances before France woke up for the final 10 minutes. The only French player who had a decent game was Ikone, who looked dangerous on the right.

As for AWB, made a couple of decent challenges and looks strong and of course is still young. A few seasons ago we would laugh off his OG at the end but the problem is that we have had error after error for the past few seasons so it is more highlited for us and more of a concern.
 

Wheato

Full Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
1,473
Location
Manchester
Give over, you muppets. AWB is class. A sliced clearance in the 94th min after being battered for 25 mins isn't going to change a thing. This kid is going to be a top player. And if we don't buy him, City or Spurs will.

*Also, nobody is signing him until this tournament is over. Same goes for Maddison and Dembele.*
 

Celoti23-81

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
396
Both penalties came against the run of play. England had a goal disallowed and wasted a few good chances before France woke up for the final 10 minutes. The only French player who had a decent game was Ikone, who looked dangerous on the right.

As for AWB, made a couple of decent challenges and looks strong and of course is still young. A few seasons ago we would laugh off his OG at the end but the problem is that we have had error after error for the past few seasons so it is more highlited for us and more of a concern.
If we don't sign a right winger, and persist with Mata and Lingard there all season and we do eventually sign AWB, he will only get exposed and look like 50 million down the drain! Crystal Palace play with a low 2 back of fours, so he is not as exposed! People underestimate how much work Andros Townsend does defensively
 

Celoti23-81

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
396
If we don't sign a right winger, and persist with Mata and Lingard there all season and we do eventually sign AWB, he will only get exposed and look like 50 million down the drain! Crystal Palace play with a low block of fours, so he is not as exposed! People underestimate how much work Andros Townsend does defensively
 

Dec9003

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
8,922
Young English talent eh! For 50 million too. I'd take every France player above England's players but for foden and Madison.
I take it you're hoping we move on Henderson then?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.