Abortion

[Scarlett Dracarys]

One solution is to have capital punishment (preferable stoning) for men who have sex outside of marriage. We did that to women ages ago so its only apt we turn the tables. I bet the need for abortion goes straight down.

This is better than all men having vasectomy (think about the costs)

So they'll be aiming for the nuts during the stoning?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

...

 

[WPMUFC]

 

[nickm]

At the end of the day, there is a big difference between not wanting an abortion because it goes against your religion/personal beliefs and not wanting an abortion because you just suddenly want a kid and you haven't found a man who wants to settle down with you.

Why is it irrational to choose to be a single mother? It's not easy, but it is doable. And it may be a woman's only or best option.

What about the woman who believes she's medically unable to have healthy kids, and accidentally gets pregnant later in life with a viable one, and realises this is her only shot? It's a woman's right to choose.

And you know what, accidents happen. People's views can change when an intellectual position gets tested by reality, especially as they get older.

Paper abortions are a fantasy for men who want freedom without responsibility.

 

[OleBoiii]

Why is it irrational to choose to be a single mother?

I'm not sure if I said that it was irrational? There are plenty of couples that are less suited to have kids than some single mothers, after all.

I was talking about ethics. I find it unethical to completely disregard the man's opinion while also expecting financial support.

This should be the procedure:

Q: Do you want to keep the baby?
Yes -> Continue to the next question.
No -> Abort away!

Q: Does the man want to keep the baby?
Yes -> Congratulations!
No -> Continue to the next question.

Q: Are you against abortions from a religious/idealistic point of view?
Yes -> *sigh* Congratulations..
No -> Continue to the next question.

Q: Do you fear the medical intervention?
Yes -> *sigh* Congratulations...
No -> Congratulations. Enjoy single motherhood, with no financial support from the man.

Legally the above is impossible to ensure, though. Which it's why it's a fantasy to imagine such a solution. Which is why....

Paper abortions are a fantasy for men who want freedom without responsibility.

Sexism aside: I'm not for paper abortions(like I already said 2-3 times in this thread).

 

[nickm]

I was talking about ethics. I find it unethical to completely disregard the man's opinion while also expecting financial support.

The financial support is for the kid. How much more unethical is it to abandon a child, whether arrived at accidentally or not?

Nor am I 100% sure that what you are referring to is "ethics" if I'm being honest. It''s unfair, it's inconvenient, it's hurt feelings, it's a promise broken... but the ethical considerations are around the child's quality of life, rather than the father's convenience.

This should be the procedure:

Q: Do you want to keep the baby?
Yes -> Continue to the next question.
No -> Abort away!

Q: Does the man want to keep the baby?
Yes -> Congratulations!
No -> Continue to the next question.

Q: Are you against abortions from a religious/idealistic point of view?
Yes -> *sigh* Congratulations..
No -> Continue to the next question.

Q: Do you fear the medical intervention?
Yes -> *sigh* Congratulations...
No -> Congratulations. Enjoy single motherhood, with no financial support from the man.

Q: Did you help make this baby, whether intentionally or not?
Yes: pay up.
No: congratulations!

My problem with the above, is it reads like it's written by someone who lacks actual experience of kids and doesn't understand how situations change when you find out you have one. It stops being about you and starts being about the child, and that's the direction the courts take too.

 

[Wibble]

If babies don't develop inside you then you get to have an opinion but no choice about it being born or otherwise. If you don't like that then you should have worn a condom. Shut up, pay us, it sucks to be you.

Paper abortions are a silly fantasy for blokes who wished they had made better choices.

 

[KirkDuyt]

If babies don't develop inside you then you get to have an opinion but no choice about it being born or otherwise. If you don't like that then you should have worn a condom. Shut up, pay us, it sucks to be you.

Paper abortions are a silly fantasy for blokes who wished they had made better choices.

I have a mate who had an unwanted child, because his then girlfriend said she was on the pill but secretly wasn't because she wanted a child. So she got pregnant and him being the softy that he is supports her even though he didn't want a kid, at all (he was 20 at the time). In extreme cases like that I'd say there should be some option to say, erm, I've been conned into getting someone pregnant.

In general though, if you accidentally get someone pregnant, you should "pay / take care of" the price.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I have a mate who had an unwanted child, because his then girlfriend said she was on the pill but secretly wasn't because she wanted a child. So she got pregnant and him being the softy that he is supports her even though he didn't want a kid, at all (he was 20 at the time). In extreme cases like that I'd say there should be some option to say, erm, I've been conned into getting someone pregnant.

In general though, if you accidentally get someone pregnant, you should "pay / take care of" the price.

Should have just worn a condom anyway or abstained totally from sex if he didn't want that to happen, according to most in this thread.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Should have just worn a condom anyway or abstained totally from sex if he didn't want that to happen, according to most in this thread.

Not really meant it to antagonize the people arguing against it unequivocally, but I do think it's important to note that a man can be the "victim" in an unwanted pregnancy. I'm quite positive it's often the other way around, but my mate had his young life stolen from him by this nutjob and being the far too nice person he is went along with it and stayed home with his child while we went out.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Not really meant it to antagonize the people arguing against it unequivocally, but I do think it's important to note that a man can be the "victim" in an unwanted pregnancy. I'm quite positive it's often the other way around, but my mate had his young life stolen from him by this nutjob and being the far too nice person he is went along with it and stayed home with his child while we went out.

I agree completely. Men can certainly get the short end of the stick in these situations, and honestly I don't think they are that uncommon. Of course, if you were to make a law to protect against such a situation it may just end up in a 'he said, she said' situation and it would be a nightmare to enforce fairly.

 

[calodo2003]

First lawsuit in the state of Texas. Didn’t take long at all...

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1039122713/doctor-texas-abortion-sued

 

[sebsheep]

First lawsuit in the state of Texas. Didn’t take long at all...

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1039122713/doctor-texas-abortion-sued

Guy filing does say he's done it to lose the case and have the law declared unconstitutional. We'll see how that goes.

 

[calodo2003]

Guy filing does say he's done it to lose the case and have the law declared unconstitutional. We'll see how that goes.

Can’t wait til the citizens’ lawsuits start rolling in.

 

[sebsheep]

Can’t wait til the citizens’ lawsuits start rolling in.

I was watching a lawyer on youtube talk about the law they passed, he said they way they've gone about it is some evil genius type stuff.
Hopefully they find a way to shut it down or at least develop some minority report type of thing to help the governer round up the rapists.

 

[nickm]

Not really meant it to antagonize the people arguing against it unequivocally, but I do think it's important to note that a man can be the "victim" in an unwanted pregnancy. I'm quite positive it's often the other way around, but my mate had his young life stolen from him by this nutjob and being the far too nice person he is went along with it and stayed home with his child while we went out.

I agree, men can be the "victim" but my goodness, a bloke should never rely on the other party to sort out the contraception if they want to be sure especially outside of a committed relationship. It's an expensive lesson to learn that the most important stuff in life can't be left to other people.

 

[calodo2003]

I was watching a lawyer on youtube talk about the law they passed, he said they way they've gone about it is some evil genius type stuff.
Hopefully they find a way to shut it down or at least develop some minority report type of thing to help the governer round up the rapists.

It’s darkly ingenious, the gambit in Texas.

Liberty University’s ‘law school’ has a mock up of the interior of the Supreme Court for a sole course in overturning Roe taught inside it for the express purpose of desensitizing the would be lawyers if they were the one(s) who founded themselves arguing in front of the nine justices. It’s a bit bizarre, the lengths to which the truly militant anti-abortionists go.

To paraphrase the immortal words of Michael Irvin, if only they showed the same intensity to the birthed babies & their mothers / families they show to the non-viable masses of cells while in the womb (in the vast majority of cases), the world would be a far better place for families. My verbiage may irritate some, but my larger truth is impossible to argue.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Her body her choice.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

The Supreme Court Sets A Date For Arguments In Case That Could Challenge Roe V. Wade


https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/dobbs-v-jackson-womens-health-organization/

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1038972266/supreme-court-date-roe-wade-dobbs-jackson-womens

 

[Denis79]

Her body her choice.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[calodo2003]

Her body her choice.

Common sense.

 

[calodo2003]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

The Supreme Court Sets A Date For Arguments In Case That Could Challenge Roe V. Wade


https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/dobbs-v-jackson-womens-health-organization/

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1038972266/supreme-court-date-roe-wade-dobbs-jackson-womens

Best case is that Roe is defeated federally & multiple obvious states become providing locations.

On a tangent, it’s (insert word here) that I opened this thread to an ad discussing seeing Elvis’ bible in the museum dedicated to the book & a Liberty University ad back to back. Algorithms are amazing.

 

[calodo2003]

A ray of sunshine here in the midst of the draconian moves in many states...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...-era-rule-barring-abortion-providers-n1280757

 

[sun_tzu]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

The Supreme Court Sets A Date For Arguments In Case That Could Challenge Roe V. Wade


https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/dobbs-v-jackson-womens-health-organization/

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1038972266/supreme-court-date-roe-wade-dobbs-jackson-womens

How long (approx) will the court take to deliver a ruling?

 

[calodo2003]

How long (approx) will the court take to deliver a ruling?

Quick search gave 2.5 months as the average of a SC ruling after oral arguments were given.

No idea when that specific article from the Duke Law School was published, though.

 

[sun_tzu]

Quick search gave 2.5 months as the average of a SC ruling after oral arguments were given.

No idea when that specific article from the Duke Law School was published, though.

So I guess that would make it around March next year?

Probably feed right into the start of the mid term campaigns?

 

[calodo2003]

So I guess that would make it around March next year?

Probably feed right into the start of the mid term campaigns?

Sounds about right, February or March.

No doubt that the ruling will be trumpeted by both sides.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

So I guess that would make it around March next year?

Probably feed right into the start of the mid-term campaigns?

I'd say March to May, a bigger ruling might take longer.

Sounds about right, February or March.

No doubt that the ruling will be trumpeted by both sides.

That probably depends on what the ruling is. It could be heavily damned by the right and feed into a "must retake the legislature" narratives or it could actually be a major shift and be completely attacked by liberals. With this court I wouldn't automatically assume a Sandra Day O'Connor era minimalist ruling. I think it's in hope for the best but better prepare for the worst territory.

 

[calodo2003]

I'd say March to May, a bigger ruling might take longer.



That probably depends on what the ruling is. It could be heavily damned by the right and feed into a "must retake the legislature" narratives or it could actually be a major shift and be completely attacked by liberals. With this court I wouldn't automatically assume a Sandra Day O'Connor era minimalist ruling. I think it's in hope for the best but better prepare for the worst territory.

'Trumpeted' in the sense that both sides will use any ruling as motivation for their base. No matter what the ruling will be, we will see ads out for political donations within the hour of it. It's just too hot button of a cultural touchstone not to rile up the base on either side.

Does the SC have a time limit after oral arguments to issue a written decision? I know that some courts have a 90 day time frame, but I am unclear about SCOTUS.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

'Trumpeted' in the sense that both sides will use any ruling as motivation for their base. No matter what the ruling will be, we will see ads out for political donations within the hour of it. It's just too hot button of a cultural touchstone not to rile up the base on either side.

Does the SC have a time limit after oral arguments to issue a written decision? I know that some courts have a 90 day time frame, but I am unclear about SCOTUS.

Ah, gotcha. I think the limit would be the end of the term so they could hold off until the first week of October 2022. I think usually though June is the typical limit for when they release their verdicts.

 

[calodo2003]

Ah, gotcha. I think the limit would be the end of the term so they could hold off until the first week of October 2022. I think usually though June is the typical limit for when they release their verdicts.

That could be quite the political claymore if they waited til October 2022 to deliver a decision. June sounds more appropriate like you say.

 

[calodo2003]

More common sense rulings...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58824668

 

[Winrar]

I feel that the real debate should be about effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, something that's not discussed as often as it should be on this issue, considering that pregnancy is a direct result of sex. Don't want to be pregnant or don't want to have to pay child support for 18 years? Abstain, wear a condom, take birth control, get vasetomy if you don't want to be emotionally and financially burdened with any unwanted kids, etc.

Now in the case of rape or mother's life in danger then that's where I would take exception. (incest too, but that's another different topic)

I don't take issue with people who disagree with my view, but I do with weirdos who take pride in abortions.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I feel that the real debate should be about effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, something that's not discussed as often as it should be on this issue, considering that pregnancy is a direct result of sex. Don't want to be pregnant or don't want to have to pay child support for 18 years? Abstain, wear a condom, take birth control, get vasetomy if you don't want to be emotionally and financially burdened with any unwanted kids, etc.

Now in the case of rape or mother's life in danger then that's where I would take exception. (incest too, but that's another different topic)

I don't take issue with people who disagree with my view, but I do with weirdos who take pride in abortions.

Who the feck takes pride in having abortions. The biggest victim of having an abortion is the person having one.

 

[Heardy]

I feel that the real debate should be about effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, something that's not discussed as often as it should be on this issue, considering that pregnancy is a direct result of sex. Don't want to be pregnant or don't want to have to pay child support for 18 years? Abstain, wear a condom, take birth control, get vasetomy if you don't want to be emotionally and financially burdened with any unwanted kids, etc.

Now in the case of rape or mother's life in danger then that's where I would take exception. (incest too, but that's another different topic)

I don't take issue with people who disagree with my view, but I do with weirdos who take pride in abortions.

Nobody takes pride in it mate. You talk like people utilise abortion as birth control.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Also, I think the whole Catholic Church thing is kind of a good argument against abstinence. Men should empty their balls periodically or they go nuts (ha).

 

[calodo2003]

I feel that the real debate should be about effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, something that's not discussed as often as it should be on this issue, considering that pregnancy is a direct result of sex. Don't want to be pregnant or don't want to have to pay child support for 18 years? Abstain, wear a condom, take birth control, get vasetomy if you don't want to be emotionally and financially burdened with any unwanted kids, etc.

Now in the case of rape or mother's life in danger then that's where I would take exception. (incest too, but that's another different topic)

I don't take issue with people who disagree with my view, but I do with weirdos who take pride in abortions.

Please elaborate on this 'pride in having abortions' take.

One can employ all those measures (although some are more easily obtained by those with means), but abortion should be an option as well.

 

[Kinsella]

Nobody takes pride in it mate. You talk like people utilise abortion as birth control.

Many do just that.

It's become a kind of backstop.

 

[0le]

For what it is worth, a close relative recently had an abortion and they have been distraught about it. They feel that they have killed a child even though it was so early on in the pregnancy. I was always pro abortion, but it really opened my eyes to how difficult it is to first of all have an abortion and secondly recover from one - both physically and mentally.

 

[Wibble]

Many do just that.

It's become a kind of backstop.

Do they really?