Abortion

DiceRoller

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
 

VorZakone

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
And what exactly is the problem there? Do you prefer their lives to be disrupted by an unwanted child?
 

RacingClub

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
I think the easy option is to keep your nose out of everyone's elses business.
 

rpitchfo

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Im pro choice in any circumstance. I don’t wrap my particular moral compass on what I consider an absolute freedom in this area. The right of a woman to choose. How they enact that is non of my business.

can somebody tell me whether the judgement is antiabortion or more around a states individual right to make a decision in this area.

it’s difficult through a European lens but America really is a collection of many countries tied together mainly for security purposes.
 

DiceRoller

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And what exactly is the problem there? Do you prefer their lives to be disrupted by an unwanted child?
I can’t think of many things bigger than choosing to terminate something with a heartbeat.
“because it doesn’t really suit me right now” just seems off in ratio to the magnitude of the action.
 

MarylandMUFan

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I’m a genuine idiot for thinking I’d get any level of genuine open discourse and discussion on an Internet forum.
Maybe because your example case for abortion was a college student doing it because it's not convenient. Each woman has their own story as to why they would want an abortion and it's not up to me to judge what is legitimate and what is frivolous.
 

harshad

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Im pro choice in any circumstance. I don’t wrap my particular moral compass on what I consider an absolute freedom in this area. The right of a woman to choose. How they enact that is non of my business.

can somebody tell me whether the judgement is antiabortion or more around a states individual right to make a decision in this area.

it’s difficult through a European lens but America really is a collection of many countries tied together mainly for security purposes.
The judgement declares that Roe v Wade was wrongly decided and overrules it. The effect of the judgement is that it puts the ball back in the hands of each State to regulate abortion the way they want to.

What I do not understand is how can the court overrule Roe v Wade when R v W was decided by a bench of 9 judges with 7 in favour and 2 dissenting and Dobbs has been decided by a bench of 9 judges with 6 in favour and 3 dissenting.
 

VorZakone

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I can’t think of many things bigger than choosing to terminate something with a heartbeat.
“because it doesn’t really suit me right now” just seems off in ratio to the magnitude of the action.
And because of that 'casualness', you might be open to making abortion illegal? As you seem genuinely torn by abortion?

It would be different if you had said "I have no problem with abortion being legal but some folks might wanna be more responsible with their sex life".

The way you framed it seems like women may have to be 'punished' for casual sex.
 

rpitchfo

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I’m a genuine idiot for thinking I’d get any level of genuine open discourse and discussion on an Internet forum.
there is a difference between a freedom and morality.

morality is in the eye of the beholder and as you know religions love it.
 

DiceRoller

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Maybe because your example case for abortion was a college student doing it because it's not convenient. Each woman has their own story as to why they would want an abortion and it's not up to me to judge what is legitimate and what is frivolous.
And what’s wrong with giving that example exactly, it’s one of the instances I’ve seen.

you did see the bit in my post where I said I don’t have a fixed opinion right? That I understand the side of the argument of women having the right to do what they want with their body?

But then struggling with the impact of terminating a heartbeat in the face of attitudes that seem incongruent with the magnitude of the decision.

It’s the leftist shoutdown tactics that make this so hard to discuss with people.
 

DiceRoller

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And because of that 'casualness', you might be open to making abortion illegal? As you seem genuinely torn by abortion?

It would be different if you had said "I have no problem with abortion being legal but some folks might wanna be more responsible with their sex life".

The way you framed it seems like women may have to be 'punished' for casual sex.
Jump to conclusions much? Christ on a bike. Women may have to be punished for casual sex? What the f are you actually taking about.
 

Rado_N

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
A woman’s right to decide what happens with her body is where it begins and ends.

Not to mention that if a woman doesn’t feel she’s able to bring a child into the world then she shouldn’t be made to do so just because you think she should change her priorities.

Men have no right to tell women how to live their lives and what they should do with their bodies.

Well, they shouldn’t have any right. Sadly it seems in the US they do.
 

RacingClub

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I’m a genuine idiot for thinking I’d get any level of genuine open discourse and discussion on an Internet forum.
You may be a genuine idiot but not necessarily for the reasons described.

How about noboby else tells you or your wife what she should be able to do with her body, and you don't tell anyone else what they should be able to do with theirs.

It's simple.
 
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sullydnl

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
All you need to decide is who you think the best person to be making the decision is. The woman and their doctors, or random unconnected strangers.

You're not obliged to have a take on individual abortion decisons and I don't know why you'd want to given it's impossible for you to know the personal circumstances involved. If you're struggling to wrap your head around it, leave it to the people involved to figure out for themselves.
 

MarylandMUFan

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And what’s wrong with giving that example exactly, it’s one of the instances I’ve seen.

you did see the bit in my post where I said I don’t have a fixed opinion right? That I understand the side of the argument of women having the right to do what they want with their body?

But then struggling with the impact of terminating a heartbeat in the face of attitudes that seem incongruent with the magnitude of the decision.

It’s the leftist shoutdown tactics that make this so hard to discuss with people.
What if they don't have a heartbeat yet? What if it's a clump of cells (blastocyst)? I am not saying you should be able to abort a child that's viable, I am saying it should be up to a women to choose up to a certain point of fetal development, and that point should be decided by scientists, not religious clerics.
 

VorZakone

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Jump to conclusions much? Christ on a bike. Women may have to be punished for casual sex? What the f are you actually taking about.
I mean, why did you say this? Why only in certain instances? Why not full legalization? Because women might be too casual about it?
Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.
 

Withnail

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I’m a genuine idiot for thinking I’d get any level of genuine open discourse and discussion on an Internet forum.
Well you either believe they have right to choose what to do with their body or you don't, I suppose. Once you start getting into the area of questioning someone's motives it all gets a bit murky and becomes an over-reach in my eyes.

When you and your partner hear a heartbeat you're celebrating the potential life that you both want to bring into the world. You know at that point there's still a long road to go and most people won't tell their family til three months in. I don't see how that is relevant to someone who doesn't want to continue their pregnancy to term.
 

GDaly95

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Did the constitution not (rightly) put forth the idea of set terms for President's / members of the house so that no one individual could exercise power over a sustained period of time and to ensure that elected officials were held accountable for their actions?

If so, why would the same idea not also apply to the SCOTUS?
 

DiceRoller

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You may be a genuine idiot but not necessarily for the reasons described.

How about noboby else tells you or your your wife what she should be able to do with her body, and you don't tell anyone else what they should be able to do with theirs.

It's simple.
1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
 

MarylandMUFan

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1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
In many cases, abortion is not terminating a heartbeat, so your premise is nonsense. In addition, why is a heartbeat the litmus test when brain development is they key factor? The heart is no different than the liver, or kidney.
 

Superden

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1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
hearbeat = consciousness ?
 

Superden

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@DiceRoller youve made a flippant point without thinking it through, and then have used all the usual tropes to deflect any criticism, ending with an attempt to add some pseudo-scientific cover for your arguments, but all thats done has exposed your point for the nonsense it was.
 

RacingClub

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1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
Yes it's simple, as I said it's not really my business what other people do.

If a woman wants to get an abortion I would just support her ability to make the right choice for her.

I don't care if it's for health reasons, economic reasons or because she just doesn't want a baby because the timing is wrong.

If your wife doesn't want to get one I wouldnt force her to either.
 

harshad

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1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
Are you Vegan/Vegetarian by any chance?
 

Superden

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@DiceRoller - It’s the leftist shoutdown tactics that make this so hard to discuss with people.
what you mean to say its the leftist tactics of exposing these 'truths' as nothing more than frivolous opinions which people holding them refuse to come to terms with
 

WI_Red

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1) we’re talking about terminating a heartbeat and it has wider societal implications than just me and my wife
2) why not apply that logic you’ve laid forth to every area in life then. It’s my body which contains my brain which means I can think and do whatever I want because it’s my brain and body.

It’s such an overly and simplistic statement you make that covers none of the nuances of consciousness.
Your second point is exactly how we should approach a persons autonomy, with the caveat that said actions do not infringe on the rights of others.
 

Wolverine

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I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.
Im not and thats after having two kids. Its hard, you need to be in a secure financial place and even then its stressful.

thats not even going into the fact pregnancy literally is lethal in many cases for women. With ecoptics, antenatal, labour and post partum complications.

People are well within their rights to think that a foetus in first trimester that wouldnt even survive with intubating and lines has rights. But to impose that view on others who differ through legislation is one of the most utterly morally bankrupt and sociopathic ideological positions. Especially for a man.
 
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RoadTrip

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I’m a genuine idiot for thinking I’d get any level of genuine open discourse and discussion on an Internet forum.
Sadly, this is precisely how you’re behaving. You don’t quite understand what this ruling is. If you want to engage in an open discussion, you should be willing to objectively assess other peoples opinions. You’ve conveniently ignored a post by @sullydnl which hits the nail on the head.

Having the right to have an abortion doesn’t force it upon anyone. Me, personally, I don’t like the idea of an abortion. I would struggle with it morally. But the point is that 1) as a man it isn’t my choice and 2) it should be a decision for the person in question. Just because I don’t agree with it, I should not force it upon everyone else. Hence this “pro-life” title is such bollocks. Because it isn’t about life. It’s about who has the right to choose.

And that’s where your argument falls to pieces in your very first post. Because what YOU think is irrelevant. And what anyone thinks about abortion should be irrelevant. It should be the between the woman and her medical counsel.
 

RoadTrip

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A woman’s right to decide what happens with her body is where it begins and ends.

Not to mention that if a woman doesn’t feel she’s able to bring a child into the world then she shouldn’t be made to do so just because you think she should change her priorities.

Men have no right to tell women how to live their lives and what they should do with their bodies.

Well, they shouldn’t have any right. Sadly it seems in the US they do.
And just to be clear, women also have no right to decide what other women should do with their bodies.
 

RoadTrip

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Im not and thats after having two kids. Its hard, you need to be in a secure financial place and even then its stressful.

thats not even going into the fact pregnancy literally is lethal in many cases for women. With ecoptics, antenatal, labour and post partum complications.

People are well within their rights to think that a foetus in first trimester that wouldnt even survive with intubating and lines. But to impose that view on others who differ through legislation is one of the most utterly morally bankrupt and sociopathic ideological positions. Especially for a man.
Precisely. And when you look at how red states have jumped on this, with a complete ban on abortion even in cases of rape, tells you what the real basis for this decision is. To many it is about protecting the rights of an unborn child, but to others, it really stems from an attack on a woman’s rights. And when you dig deeper into who is impacted most by this, it goes even deeper then that.
 

VanDeBank

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thats not even going into the fact pregnancy literally is lethal in many cases for women. With ecoptics, antenatal, labour and post partum complications.
We'll be seeing higher rates of mortality during childbirth. Exceptions such as "when the mother's life is in danger" are a fantasy.

A doctor rarely knows with near 100% certainty that is the case. He'll be weighing a % chance of the mother dying vs time in prison and the end of his career (and possibly bankruptcy due to not being able to pay off med school loans)

Short term I'm honestly hoping rich democratic donors will pony up the money to help women get across state lines.

Long term we need a left (not democrat) leaning congress and president that'll appoint additional pro choice supreme court justices. We can't afford to wait 30 years for Cavanaugh & co to bite the dust.
 

choccy77

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No one should be in a position to dictate or oppress how someone lives or the decisions they make that are the best for themselves or their wellbeing.

Unfortunately, in all walks of life and especially online, many people feel they are the power to judge or dictate what other people should do or say rather than look at their own behaviours, actions or words.

Sadly, despite many progresses, we live in a world of self importance and the need to control how others live their lives and now more than ever, people all over the world need to become more compassionate and accepting of others and we will all begin to live in a happier world.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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And what’s wrong with giving that example exactly, it’s one of the instances I’ve seen.

you did see the bit in my post where I said I don’t have a fixed opinion right? That I understand the side of the argument of women having the right to do what they want with their body?

But then struggling with the impact of terminating a heartbeat in the face of attitudes that seem incongruent with the magnitude of the decision.

It’s the leftist shoutdown tactics that make this so hard to discuss with people.
Why does a heartbeat matter? It’s an organ. Not sentience.

By your logic, everyone should be kept on life support until their heart gives up?

I appreciate you being brave enough to speak up in open forum. Too few are willing.

Women should choose though. 100% of the time, with zero restrictions. The world would be a better place if it were that way. That it’s even a question is a black mark on society.