Abortion

dinostar77

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Like I said above, I completely understand, and agree with, the theory. But the practicality of implementing it is just impossible in a fair and civilised state. And worse than impossible in a place like the US where you can envisage something stupid like “immigrants don’t have the right to bear a child” kind of nonsense, and even worse. And would end up being the poorest who, again, would suffer the most.
Oh definitely completely impractical for many reasons to implement. Theoretically makes sense.
 

shamans

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Oh… how wrong this post could prove to be.
Today is the seventh anniversary of gay marriage being legal. We just saw a 50 year old right vanish on Friday. Texas just came out with an anti-gay political platform, one I could see others do. I can completely see same sex marriage legality be gone in the next five years.
Well it could but I doubt it. I think it's more established as an issue in society than abortion.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Amazing mate, thanks. It's a horrific state of affairs that a rogue president can stuff a court full of conservative pissbags to poison society for decades to come, but I cling to the hope that young people on the whole are moving away from conservatism (not that women in the US have that kind of time to wait to avoid harm).
The problem is beyond just Trump. Republicans have been building for this for decades and McConnell would have given any Republican President this option and none of Trump's nominations were due to Trump. They were all hand picked for him by the Federalist Society and their allies. I wish we could just blame Trump for this but the reality is much scarier. We have somewhere between 25%-40% that have no problem imposing their minority beliefs on the rest of the nation at all costs through the undemocratic nature of the US government (electoral college, Senate). What the rogue President did do though, was show even less care in outright trying to overturn an election that didn't go his way which is something this new breed of firebrand conservatives seems to have taken and run with.
 

calodo2003

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The problem is beyond just Trump. Republicans have been building for this for decades and McConnell would have given any Republican President this option and none of Trump's nominations were due to Trump. They were all hand picked for him by the Federalist Society and their allies. I wish we could just blame Trump for this but the reality is much scarier. We have somewhere between 25%-40% that have no problem imposing their minority beliefs on the rest of the nation at all costs through the undemocratic nature of the US government (electoral college, Senate). What the rogue President did do though, was show even less care in outright trying to overturn an election that didn't go his way which is something this new breed of firebrand conservatives seems to have taken and run with.
This is spot on, thus it disillusions the feck out of me.
 

Carolina Red

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I don't think anti gay is that big of an issue as anti abortion. Even among most republicans I would say gay marriage is an established right.
Right…

From the Texas GOP Party Platform

317. Homosexual Behavior: We affirm God’s biblical design for marriage and sexual behavior between one biological man and one biological woman, which has proven to be the foundation for all great nations in Western civilization. We oppose homosexual marriage, regardless of state of origin. We urge the Texas Legislature to pass religious liberty protections for individuals, businesses, and government officials who believe marriage is between one man and one woman. We oppose the granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for LGBTQ+ behavior, regardless of state of origin. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.
318. Definition of Marriage: We support the definition of marriage as a God-ordained, legal, and moral commitment only between one natural man and one natural woman.
319. State Authority over Marriage: We support withholding jurisdiction from the federal courts in cases involving family law, especially any changes in the definition of marriage.
322. Overturn Unconstitutional Ruling: We believe the Obergefell v. Hodges decision, overturning the Texas law prohibiting same-sex marriage in Texas, has no basis in the Constitution and should be reversed, returning jurisdiction over the definition of marriage to the states. The Governor and other elected officials of the State of Texas should assert our Tenth Amendment right and reject the Supreme Court ruling.
323. Adoption: We encourage the Texas Legislature to remove as many barriers to adoption as possible and make the process less intrusive while protecting children’s safety and best interests. We urge the Texas Legislature to adopt the following steps to promote adoption:
a. Continue to privatize the process.
b. Continue to allow faith-based agencies to set their own rules and requirements for
adoptions.
c. Change incentives to encourage successful permanent placement of children instead of
continuation of foster care.
d. Remove obstacles to transracial adoptions while continuing to increase the amount of
minority adoptive parents.
e. Enact legislation to permit foster parents to initiate adoption proceedings.
We urge communities and people of faith to promote adoption and for those not called to adopt themselves to offer assistance to families that can. We believe that, in the best interests of the family and child, the State of Texas should allow children to be adopted only by married or single heterosexuals.

https://doc-10-b8-docs.googleuserco...386949Z&hash=eir97qf3a2fmaok6c7n9cn9ggon2a7qk
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I don't think anti gay is that big of an issue as anti abortion. Even among most republicans I would say gay marriage is an established right.
I'm going to humbly suggest you really don't have a clue how rabid the current state of conservatives in America are. Just look at what their elected representatives are saying about books in schools and their attempts to ban anything related to LGBT issues, or their response to a very innocuous (and less risque than can be found on network television) drag show during Pride. And that's their elected representatives. You can quite easily find much worse in Youtube comments on Fox News channel, callers to right-wing talk shows (always a very telling data point), and what they post on things like Telegram (or even on Facebook). Hardcore anti-choice might pull in a few more people that might be sorta open to same-sex marriage but its a rounding error and irrelevant since the elected GOP officials will follow that die-hard 25% of far-right extremists.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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He definitely does not. Just look at my post right above yours for proof of what the GOP wants.
Yes, thank you for posting that. I've been hearing about the Texas GOP platform but hadn't looked it up yet. That is truly, truly scary and really should serve as a wake-up call even to the most informed of us of what this iteration of the GOP is willing to do.

This is spot on, thus it disillusions the feck out of me.
I feel you. A lot of things really are disheartening right now.
 

shamans

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I'm going to humbly suggest you really don't have a clue how rabid the current state of conservatives in America are. Just look at what their elected representatives are saying about books in schools and their attempts to ban anything related to LGBT issues, or their response to a very innocuous (and less risque than can be found on network television) drag show during Pride. And that's their elected representatives. You can quite easily find much worse in Youtube comments on Fox News channel, callers to right-wing talk shows (always a very telling data point), and what they post on things like Telegram (or even on Facebook). Hardcore anti-choice might pull in a few more people that might be sorta open to same-sex marriage but its a rounding error and irrelevant since the elected GOP officials will follow that die-hard 25% of far-right extremists.
Right…

From the Texas GOP Party Platform

317. Homosexual Behavior: We affirm God’s biblical design for marriage and sexual behavior between one biological man and one biological woman, which has proven to be the foundation for all great nations in Western civilization. We oppose homosexual marriage, regardless of state of origin. We urge the Texas Legislature to pass religious liberty protections for individuals, businesses, and government officials who believe marriage is between one man and one woman. We oppose the granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for LGBTQ+ behavior, regardless of state of origin. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.
318. Definition of Marriage: We support the definition of marriage as a God-ordained, legal, and moral commitment only between one natural man and one natural woman.
319. State Authority over Marriage: We support withholding jurisdiction from the federal courts in cases involving family law, especially any changes in the definition of marriage.
322. Overturn Unconstitutional Ruling: We believe the Obergefell v. Hodges decision, overturning the Texas law prohibiting same-sex marriage in Texas, has no basis in the Constitution and should be reversed, returning jurisdiction over the definition of marriage to the states. The Governor and other elected officials of the State of Texas should assert our Tenth Amendment right and reject the Supreme Court ruling.
323. Adoption: We encourage the Texas Legislature to remove as many barriers to adoption as possible and make the process less intrusive while protecting children’s safety and best interests. We urge the Texas Legislature to adopt the following steps to promote adoption:
a. Continue to privatize the process.
b. Continue to allow faith-based agencies to set their own rules and requirements for
adoptions.
c. Change incentives to encourage successful permanent placement of children instead of
continuation of foster care.
d. Remove obstacles to transracial adoptions while continuing to increase the amount of
minority adoptive parents.
e. Enact legislation to permit foster parents to initiate adoption proceedings.
We urge communities and people of faith to promote adoption and for those not called to adopt themselves to offer assistance to families that can. We believe that, in the best interests of the family and child, the State of Texas should allow children to be adopted only by married or single heterosexuals.

https://doc-10-b8-docs.googleuserco...386949Z&hash=eir97qf3a2fmaok6c7n9cn9ggon2a7qk
I (obviously) had not read Texas GOP documents and it's a little surprising to see but I'd categorize it as extremist views. Here's a Gallup poll

https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

70 % is a pretty high number especially if you look at the rate of support. Unless there is a reversal of some sort in that I don't see it being overturned.
 

utdalltheway

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Off topic but brought to mind by this latest scotus decision.
We’re now living in two separate countries in some ways. My wife told me that the west coast states (CA, OR WA) governors say they’ll make their states sanctuaries for red state women seeking abortion.

I don’t have a strong grasp on the situation before the civil war back in the 1850s, early 1860s but it must have felt a bit like this. Except the blue states may split?

I’m glad I’m in CA and not some shithole red state but religious conservatives aka nut jobs are plentiful here too but I hope they’re they’re minority and it stays that way. My wife is very Catholic but not conservative so she’s appalled by this turn of events. She’s now on board (finally) with advising our kids to look to Europe to live in.
 

Fingeredmouse

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I (obviously) had not read Texas GOP documents and it's a little surprising to see but I'd categorize it as extremist views. Here's a Gallup poll

https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

70 % is a pretty high number especially if you look at the rate of support. Unless there is a reversal of some sort in that I don't see it being overturned.
61% support the right to abortion. I'm not sure why you think public opinion will stop these theocratic ideologues.
 

RoadTrip

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I (obviously) had not read Texas GOP documents and it's a little surprising to see but I'd categorize it as extremist views. Here's a Gallup poll

https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

70 % is a pretty high number especially if you look at the rate of support. Unless there is a reversal of some sort in that I don't see it being overturned.
61% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. How has that mattered in the end?
 

Carolina Red

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I (obviously) had not read Texas GOP documents and it's a little surprising to see but I'd categorize it as extremist views. Here's a Gallup poll

https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

70 % is a pretty high number especially if you look at the rate of support. Unless there is a reversal of some sort in that I don't see it being overturned.
Yeah, “extremist views” in the party platform of the largest Republican state… “extremist views” that were literally echoed in Justice Clarence Thomas’ SCOTUS opinion just a couple of days ago.

When are you going to figure it out that the Republican Party IS extremist…?
 

shamans

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61% support the right to abortion. I'm not sure why you think public opinion will stop these theocratic ideologues.
61% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. How has that mattered in the end?
That's fair I suppose. I know personally I have met plenty more pro life folks vs anti gay. I just don't see it as an active topic of conversation so found it hard to believe.
 

KirkDuyt

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I find the "not rooted in tradition" (not the exact wording) part the most insane. Who cares if it's not a human right that's rooted in tradition. Neither is the abolition of slavery. Society evolves (ideally speaking, the opposite is true in the US at the moment).

I suppose next on the GOP hitlist is gay marriage?
 

shamans

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Yeah, “extremist views” in the party platform of the largest Republican state… “extremist views” that were literally echoed in Justice Clarence Thomas’ SCOTUS opinion just a couple of days ago.

When are you going to figure it out that the Republican Party IS extremist…?
They are. As I said I could be wrong and as I posted above, I personally have not encountered the anti gay marriage debate in ages. It's something that I haven't seen come up so pushing for that seems (or seemed) unlikely.
 

calodo2003

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I find the "not rooted in tradition" (not the exact wording) part the most insane. Who cares if it's not a human right that's rooted in tradition. Neither is the abolition of slavery. Society evolves (ideally speaking, the opposite is true in the US at the moment).

I suppose next on the GOP hitlist is gay marriage?
It’s the cruelest move, so I think it’s next.
 

Jericholyte2

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To those so ardently against license to parent, think about the things (in the UK) that you have to have a license for, yet as others have said anyone can bring a child into the world.

You have the recent cases of Star Hobson and many others where parents kill children and wonder how they can be allowed to bring a life into the world.

In personal experience, we had our first child 11 days ago, after a 6yr battle involving fertility screening, testing, treatment and several rounds of IVF. My wife and child were in hospital for several days and EVERY SINGLE TIME both on entry and exit to/from the hospital the same woman, heavily pregnant, was sat outside chain smoking.

How can that woman be allowed to have a child when she clearly (and I fully acknowledge the difficulties of giving up an addiction) doesn’t respect the responsibility of being a parent?
 

Carolina Red

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To those so ardently against license to parent, think about the things (in the UK) that you have to have a license for, yet as others have said anyone can bring a child into the world.

You have the recent cases of Star Hobson and many others where parents kill children and wonder how they can be allowed to bring a life into the world.

In personal experience, we had our first child 11 days ago, after a 6yr battle involving fertility screening, testing, treatment and several rounds of IVF. My wife and child were in hospital for several days and EVERY SINGLE TIME both on entry and exit to/from the hospital the same woman, heavily pregnant, was sat outside chain smoking.

How can that woman be allowed to have a child when she clearly (and I fully acknowledge the difficulties of giving up an addiction) doesn’t respect the responsibility of being a parent?
People in the US would use that kind of system to reduce the population of ethnic minorities.
 

Carolina Red

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So likely Charlotte or inside the Research Triangle… you aren’t gonna be likely to hear the anti-gay marriage stuff there.

Meanwhile, the North Carolina GOP still has this in their 2022 platform…

“2. Traditional marriage and family, based on marriage between one man and one woman, is the foundation for a civil society. The success of marriage may impact the economic well-being of individuals. Furthermore, we support actions to return marriage laws to the states; therefore, we support the marriage amendment as part of the North Carolina constitution and encourage all efforts to defend it.”

That amendment it references is the one where the NC GOP had it added to the NC Constitution that the only marriage that’s acceptable in NC is between a man and a woman.
 

RoadTrip

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To those so ardently against license to parent, think about the things (in the UK) that you have to have a license for, yet as others have said anyone can bring a child into the world.

You have the recent cases of Star Hobson and many others where parents kill children and wonder how they can be allowed to bring a life into the world.

In personal experience, we had our first child 11 days ago, after a 6yr battle involving fertility screening, testing, treatment and several rounds of IVF. My wife and child were in hospital for several days and EVERY SINGLE TIME both on entry and exit to/from the hospital the same woman, heavily pregnant, was sat outside chain smoking.

How can that woman be allowed to have a child when she clearly (and I fully acknowledge the difficulties of giving up an addiction) doesn’t respect the responsibility of being a parent?
It’s the practicality of enforcing it that’s the issue. Surely you can understand how something like this, as good as it sounds with good intentions, would be very, very problematic if people with bad intentions are allowed to set the rules. And as you can see, there are many people with bad intentions.
 

phelans shorts

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To those so ardently against license to parent, think about the things (in the UK) that you have to have a license for, yet as others have said anyone can bring a child into the world.

You have the recent cases of Star Hobson and many others where parents kill children and wonder how they can be allowed to bring a life into the world.

In personal experience, we had our first child 11 days ago, after a 6yr battle involving fertility screening, testing, treatment and several rounds of IVF. My wife and child were in hospital for several days and EVERY SINGLE TIME both on entry and exit to/from the hospital the same woman, heavily pregnant, was sat outside chain smoking.

How can that woman be allowed to have a child when she clearly (and I fully acknowledge the difficulties of giving up an addiction) doesn’t respect the responsibility of being a parent?
Given the systemic racism and classism in place in the UK, do you really think this would end well? I don’t see any way in which it wouldn’t descend into massive difficulties for the poor and essentially a degree of ethnic cleansing.

Of course what you’ve had to go through sounds awful, and I’m glad to hear that all sounds to be better now (congrats on the little one!) and I can very much understand why such a sight would be massively upsetting to somebody in your position, but I fail to see any way in which practically implementing what is in theory a perfectly reasonable idea works unfortunately.
 

Jericholyte2

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It’s the practicality of enforcing it that’s the issue. Surely you can understand how something like this, as good as it sounds with good intentions, would be very, very problematic if people with bad intentions are allowed to set the rules. And as you can see, there are many people with bad intentions.

Given the systemic racism and classism in place in the UK, do you really think this would end well? I don’t see any way in which it wouldn’t descend into massive difficulties for the poor and essentially a degree of ethnic cleansing.

Of course what you’ve had to go through sounds awful, and I’m glad to hear that all sounds to be better now (congrats on the little one!) and I can very much understand why such a sight would be massively upsetting to somebody in your position, but I fail to see any way in which practically implementing what is in theory a perfectly reasonable idea works unfortunately.
I don’t for a second underestimate the issues with the practicality of enforcing such a system, but the system is broken right now and children are facing ruined lives and death because of it.
 

Penna

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My own take on this very polarising and difficult situation is that before anyone decided to ban anything, a huge raft of measures should have been put in place by the states who have implemented abortion bans.

These should have included financial support (proper support, not a few hundred dollars) for any woman who is below a certain income level and pregnant, meaningful periods of paid maternity and paternity leave (at least 6 months for the woman), fully-funded and plentiful nurseries which would allow a woman to return to work promptly after having a child, tax incentives for parents, counselling and advice centres .... there must be lots more that might help those whose primary incentive to have an abortion is practical and financial.

Then they should have reviewed that after a few years and seen what impact it had had on abortion rates. However, some states have been simply waiting for the Supreme Court to give its ruling and have pressed the button. What have they been doing to build up a raft of support for women and families who will be affected by this? Nothing, it appears.

As it is, they've done something which removes a safety net for a lot of women, and they're allowing the women to just fall. If you're going to protect the life of an unborn child, you need to protect the lives of the child's parents, too.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I (obviously) had not read Texas GOP documents and it's a little surprising to see but I'd categorize it as extremist views. Here's a Gallup poll

https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

70 % is a pretty high number especially if you look at the rate of support. Unless there is a reversal of some sort in that I don't see it being overturned.
And the support for abortion rights is somewhere around 60%-65% as the links I posted earlier.

Our point is that the current GOP have no intention of following the views of the majority of the country but the extreme far-right morality of the core far-right base that have no problem imposing their views on the rest of the society.
Off topic but brought to mind by this latest scotus decision.
We’re now living in two separate countries in some ways. My wife told me that the west coast states (CA, OR WA) governors say they’ll make their states sanctuaries for red state women seeking abortion.

I don’t have a strong grasp on the situation before the civil war back in the 1850s, early 1860s but it must have felt a bit like this. Except the blue states may split?

I’m glad I’m in CA and not some shithole red state but religious conservatives aka nut jobs are plentiful here too but I hope they’re they’re minority and it stays that way. My wife is very Catholic but not conservative so she’s appalled by this turn of events. She’s now on board (finally) with advising our kids to look to Europe to live in.
This is a great article on exactly that issue by Ronald Brownstein, who has been studying/following this angle for years (he wrote the Second Civil War back in 2006-07):
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-growing-michael-podhorzer-newsletter/661377/
Definitely worth a read:

Brownstein said:
To Podhorzer, the growing separation means that after the period of fading distinctions, bedrock differences dating back to the country’s founding are resurfacing. And one crucial element of that, he argues, is the return of what he calls “one-party rule in the red nation...
...
It seems unlikely that the Trump-era Republicans installing the policy priorities of their preponderantly white and Christian coalition across the red states will be satisfied just setting the rules in the places now under their control. Podhorzer, like Mason and Grumbach, believes that the MAGA movement’s long-term goal is to tilt the electoral rules in enough states to make winning Congress or the White House almost impossible for Democrats. Then, with support from the GOP-appointed majority on the Supreme Court, Republicans could impose red-state values and programs nationwide, even if most Americans oppose them. The “MAGA movement is not stopping at the borders of the states it already controls,” Podhorzer writes. “It seeks to conquer as much territory as possible by any means possible.”

The Trump model, in other words, is more the South in 1850 than the South in 1950, more John Calhoun than Richard Russell. (Some red-state Republicans are even distantly echoing Calhoun in promising to nullify—that is, defy—federal laws with which they disagree.)
 
Last edited:

Fingeredmouse

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To those so ardently against license to parent, think about the things (in the UK) that you have to have a license for, yet as others have said anyone can bring a child into the world.

You have the recent cases of Star Hobson and many others where parents kill children and wonder how they can be allowed to bring a life into the world.

In personal experience, we had our first child 11 days ago, after a 6yr battle involving fertility screening, testing, treatment and several rounds of IVF. My wife and child were in hospital for several days and EVERY SINGLE TIME both on entry and exit to/from the hospital the same woman, heavily pregnant, was sat outside chain smoking.

How can that woman be allowed to have a child when she clearly (and I fully acknowledge the difficulties of giving up an addiction) doesn’t respect the responsibility of being a parent?
Because you cannot have state control over who can or can't have a child. On what criteria do we judge this? Who gets to choose who can and can't? You?
 

RoadTrip

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I don’t for a second underestimate the issues with the practicality of enforcing such a system, but the system is broken right now and children are facing ruined lives and death because of it.
If there was ever a system which could be implemented which addressed the issues I’d back it in a heartbeat. I’m just skeptical that such a viable system exists.
 

RoadTrip

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My own take on this very polarising and difficult situation is that before anyone decided to ban anything, a huge raft of measures should have been put in place by the states who have implemented abortion bans.

These should have included financial support (proper support, not a few hundred dollars) for any woman who is below a certain income level and pregnant, meaningful periods of paid maternity and paternity leave (at least 6 months for the woman), fully-funded and plentiful nurseries which would allow a woman to return to work promptly after having a child, tax incentives for parents, counselling and advice centres .... there must be lots more that might help those whose primary incentive to have an abortion is practical and financial.

Then they should have reviewed that after a few years and seen what impact it had had on abortion rates. However, some states have been simply waiting for the Supreme Court to give its ruling and have pressed the button. What have they been doing to build up a raft of support for women and families who will be affected by this? Nothing, it appears.

As it is, they've done something which removes a safety net for a lot of women, and they're allowing the women to just fall. If you're going to protect the life of an unborn child, you need to protect the lives of the child's parents, too.
And the life of that child once it’s born. It’s so contradictory as it is.
 

Withnail

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Right…

From the Texas GOP Party Platform

317. Homosexual Behavior: We affirm God’s biblical design for marriage and sexual behavior between one biological man and one biological woman, which has proven to be the foundation for all great nations in Western civilization. We oppose homosexual marriage, regardless of state of origin. We urge the Texas Legislature to pass religious liberty protections for individuals, businesses, and government officials who believe marriage is between one man and one woman. We oppose the granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for LGBTQ+ behavior, regardless of state of origin. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.
318. Definition of Marriage: We support the definition of marriage as a God-ordained, legal, and moral commitment only between one natural man and one natural woman.
319. State Authority over Marriage: We support withholding jurisdiction from the federal courts in cases involving family law, especially any changes in the definition of marriage.
322. Overturn Unconstitutional Ruling: We believe the Obergefell v. Hodges decision, overturning the Texas law prohibiting same-sex marriage in Texas, has no basis in the Constitution and should be reversed, returning jurisdiction over the definition of marriage to the states. The Governor and other elected officials of the State of Texas should assert our Tenth Amendment right and reject the Supreme Court ruling.
323. Adoption: We encourage the Texas Legislature to remove as many barriers to adoption as possible and make the process less intrusive while protecting children’s safety and best interests. We urge the Texas Legislature to adopt the following steps to promote adoption:
a. Continue to privatize the process.
b. Continue to allow faith-based agencies to set their own rules and requirements for
adoptions.
c. Change incentives to encourage successful permanent placement of children instead of
continuation of foster care.
d. Remove obstacles to transracial adoptions while continuing to increase the amount of
minority adoptive parents.
e. Enact legislation to permit foster parents to initiate adoption proceedings.
We urge communities and people of faith to promote adoption and for those not called to adopt themselves to offer assistance to families that can. We believe that, in the best interests of the family and child, the State of Texas should allow children to be adopted only by married or single heterosexuals.

https://doc-10-b8-docs.googleuserco...386949Z&hash=eir97qf3a2fmaok6c7n9cn9ggon2a7qk
That's shocking but is there any hope that their gerrymandering and attempts to force a minority view through the courts will cause such a backlash that it ends up blowing up in their faces at some point down the line and people realise the system need to fundamentally change?
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,573
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Florida
That's shocking but is there any hope that their gerrymandering and attempts to force a minority view through the courts will cause such a backlash that it ends up blowing up in their faces at some point down the line and people realise the system need to fundamentally change?
Don’t hold your breath.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
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Jun 6, 2013
Messages
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The Zone
Am I going crazy or are the people who think republicans are turning America into a Handmaid Tale nightmare, also the same people arguing that the state should means test citizens to see if they should have kids ?