Abortion

[Carolina Red]

That's shocking but is there any hope that their gerrymandering and attempts to force a minority view through the courts will cause such a backlash that it ends up blowing up in their faces at some point down the line and people realise the system need to fundamentally change?

Who though?

Those who support the GOP aren’t going to flip sides because of this.

 

[Withnail]

Don’t hold your breath.

Well I don't mean in the short-term. But I'd expect this type of stuff along with the mass shootings and refusal to implement anything approaching gun control to galvanise people a bit.

Who though?

Those who support the GOP aren’t going to flip sides because of this.

Won't they lose their more moderate support by rolling back Roe vs Wade, Marriage equality and the rights of non-heterosexuals to adopt etc?

 

[shamans]

Who though?

Those who support the GOP aren’t going to flip sides because of this.

Well I know one conservative in Rural NC who has now distanced even more from the republican party, though they did vote Biden but not democrat at heart.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Well I don't mean in the short-term. But I'd expect this type of stuff along with the mass shootings and refusal to implement anything approaching gun control to galvanise people a bit.



Won't they lose their more moderate support by rolling back Roe vs Wade, Marriage equality and the rights of non-heterosexuals to adopt etc?

None of this will happen. American moderates vacillates between 'I'm alright Jack' and 'tax cuts' in election season.

The only way to rouse them will be for things to become much worse than this, just like many Northerners who didn't back the abolitionists until the South's brazen attempts to subvert the Union and expand slavery make them want to punish the South. The driver of US politics is punishment.

 

[Carolina Red]

Won't they lose their more moderate support by rolling back Roe vs Wade, Marriage equality and the rights of non-heterosexuals to adopt etc?

If you ask me, the moderates are already out of the GOP.

 

[Carolina Red]

Well I know one conservative in Rural NC who has now distanced even more from the republican party, though they did vote Biden but not democrat at heart.

Well, I look forward to his single vote… that the Democratic candidate already got from him before any of this happened.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Am I going crazy or are the people who think republicans are turning America into a Handmaid Tale nightmare, also the same people arguing that the state should means test citizens to see if they should have kids ?

Yup. People are not thinking things through before they post them because I assume they are emotional about this subject.

People who think there should be limits on who should have babies should look at the history of eugenics, between the end of the 19th century, right up to the holocaust.

That is the path of "let's decide who should have babies", everything from the Kansas experiment, Henry Goddard, right the way through to the holocaust and our current white supremacy..

 

[calodo2003]

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[Blackwidow]

Yup. People are not thinking things through before they post them because I assume they are emotional about this subject.

People who think there should be limits on who should have babies should look at the history of eugenics, between the end of the 19th century, right up to the holocaust.

That is the path of "let's decide who should have babies", everything from the Kansas experiment, Henry Goddard, right the way through to the holocaust and our current white supremacy..

Do not stop with the holocaust. It happened later, too...
I read a newspaper article about this 20 years ago when I was in North Carolina. But Wikipedia has something about it, too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Board_of_North_Carolina

(Aargh, probably have read that in the Winston-Salem journal as I was there in 2002/03)

 

[calodo2003]

Speaking of anti-gay rhetoric…

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[Jericholyte2]

Yup. People are not thinking things through before they post them because I assume they are emotional about this subject.

People who think there should be limits on who should have babies should look at the history of eugenics, between the end of the 19th century, right up to the holocaust.

That is the path of "let's decide who should have babies", everything from the Kansas experiment, Henry Goddard, right the way through to the holocaust and our current white supremacy..

I’m currently feeding my 11 day old daughter after our six year battle to have her, and I fully believe that people should have to prove that they can be parents. I read stories on a weekly basis about parents killing their babies and toddlers because they had no idea what they were getting in to. These people do not (at the very best, yet) deserve to have this amazing miracle of a child.

Those suggesting that I and others are fans of eugenics are way off the mark, as that was based on selective breading based on the viability of the offspring, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Speaking of anti-gay rhetoric…

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For anyone who doesn't know, Huntington Beach was one of the two biggest strongholds of the KKK in Southern California back ~100 years ago (the other being the former sundown town, Glendale).

 

[NotThatSoph]

Do not stop with the holocaust. It happened later, too...
I read a newspaper article about this 20 years ago when I was in North Carolina. But Wikipedia has something about it, too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Board_of_North_Carolina

(Aargh, probably have read that in the Winston-Salem journal as I was there in 2002/03)

Here in Norway we used to sterilize travelers, usually Romani, until at least the 50s I believe, but it may have continued into the 70s. Also poor people, criminals, prostitutes and other "undesirables".

 

[Withnail]

I’m currently feeding my 11 day old daughter after our six year battle to have her, and I fully believe that people should have to prove that they can be parents. I read stories on a weekly basis about parents killing their babies and toddlers because they had no idea what they were getting in to. These people do not (at the very best, yet) deserve to have this amazing miracle of a child.

Those suggesting that I and others are fans of eugenics are way off the mark, as that was based on selective breading based on the viability of the offspring, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

And by what mechanism would you go about implementing your idea?

 

[TwoSheds]

I’m currently feeding my 11 day old daughter after our six year battle to have her, and I fully believe that people should have to prove that they can be parents. I read stories on a weekly basis about parents killing their babies and toddlers because they had no idea what they were getting in to. These people do not (at the very best, yet) deserve to have this amazing miracle of a child.

Those suggesting that I and others are fans of eugenics are way off the mark, as that was based on selective breading based on the viability of the offspring, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

Do you think maybe a lot of those stories are bullshit? And even if they're not, do you think the proportion of people it applies to is minimal so the harm prevented with your idea would be easily counterbalanced by the problems associated with a biased, racist, sexist state overreaching into people's lives?

Crazy idea, fund social services better to protect at risk babies.

 

[calodo2003]

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[Fridge chutney]

This is such a horrific backward step for the USA. I feel like that freedom and human rights are being eroded, which is ironic coming from the party that claims to support individual freedoms.

 

[calodo2003]

This is such a horrific backward step for the USA. I feel like that freedom and human rights are being eroded, which is ironic coming from the party that claims to support individual freedoms.

And smaller government.

 

[e.cantona]

I’m currently feeding my 11 day old daughter after our six year battle to have her, and I fully believe that people should have to prove that they can be parents. I read stories on a weekly basis about parents killing their babies and toddlers because they had no idea what they were getting in to. These people do not (at the very best, yet) deserve to have this amazing miracle of a child.

Those suggesting that I and others are fans of eugenics are way off the mark, as that was based on selective breading based on the viability of the offspring, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

Want to drive a car? First try learning how to do it safely. Want to be a parent? First try learing how to do it safely! This shouldn't be controversial. Me and mine went through similar as you to have our little one. I'm not going to pass judgment on ourselves, but some people really should be parents, as should some people obviously not be parents.

 

[RedTiger]

, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

What constitutes "unfit" though?

Someone will have to define the parameters of "unfit" if society wants to regulate breeding, when that time comes the defining of the parameters will be done on ideological grounds. We're humans, we've been judging others since the dawn of history. If you allow humanity to decide who gets to breed I assure you that it'll get really fecked really quick.

I fully understand the sentiments of your thinking because I've thought the same, but still best not to do it as I don't trust my fellow humans judgement of character.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

What constitutes "unfit" though?

Someone will have to define the parameters of "unfit" if society wants to regulate breeding, when that time comes the defining of the parameters will be done on ideological grounds. We're humans, we've been judging others since the dawn of history. If you allow humanity to decide who gets to breed I assure you that it'll get really fecked really quick.

I fully understand the sentiments of your thinking because I've thought the same, but still best not to do it as I don't trust my fellow humans judgement of character.

Exactly. I would rather run the risk of an Idiocracy situation than have some sort of authority define who is fit to have kids and who isn't.

 

[shamans]

Want to drive a car? First try learning how to do it safely. Want to be a parent? First try learing how to do it safely! This shouldn't be controversial. Me and mine went through similar as you to have our little one. I'm not going to pass judgment on ourselves, but some people really should be parents, as should some people obviously not be parents.

Some of you really want to live in a dystopian police authority state.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Want to drive a car? First try learning how to do it safely. Want to be a parent? First try learing how to do it safely! This shouldn't be controversial. Me and mine went through similar as you to have our little one. I'm not going to pass judgment on ourselves, but some people really should be parents, as should some people obviously not be parents.

Are you really not able to see how driving a car and having a child are incomparable?

Allowing people to have or not have children based on the discretion of others is...well, fascist.

 

[Eyepopper]

My own take on this very polarising and difficult situation is that before anyone decided to ban anything, a huge raft of measures should have been put in place by the states who have implemented abortion bans.

These should have included financial support (proper support, not a few hundred dollars) for any woman who is below a certain income level and pregnant, meaningful periods of paid maternity and paternity leave (at least 6 months for the woman), fully-funded and plentiful nurseries which would allow a woman to return to work promptly after having a child, tax incentives for parents, counselling and advice centres .... there must be lots more that might help those whose primary incentive to have an abortion is practical and financial.

Then they should have reviewed that after a few years and seen what impact it had had on abortion rates. However, some states have been simply waiting for the Supreme Court to give its ruling and have pressed the button. What have they been doing to build up a raft of support for women and families who will be affected by this? Nothing, it appears.

As it is, they've done something which removes a safety net for a lot of women, and they're allowing the women to just fall. If you're going to protect the life of an unborn child, you need to protect the lives of the child's parents, too.

Really good post, but unfortunately you and I both know, that in the US, these decisions and rulings have nothing to do with doing the right thing, or the thing that produces the most successful outcomes.

As an Irishman in my 40s its mad to me, I spent my child and young adulthood viewing America as the bastion of where I'd like to raise my own kids, rather than the regressive religiously shit hole I grew up in myself. Less than 25 years later my opinion now is a complete 180.

 

[e.cantona]

Are you really not able to see how driving a car and having a child are incomparable?

Allowing people to have or not have children based on the discretion of others is...well, fascist.

feck sake..

 

[Fingeredmouse]

feck sake..

feck sake what?

 

[ExoduS]

Why would anyone engage with you in debate after that fecking post yesterday?

Cause I'm so fun to talk to.

 

[adexkola]

When I seize power, I will move to legalize abortion worldwide, and sterilize people who drive in the fast lane at the speed limit

 

[calodo2003]

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[Withnail]

feck sake..

Well they're right.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I’m currently feeding my 11 day old daughter after our six year battle to have her, and I fully believe that people should have to prove that they can be parents. I read stories on a weekly basis about parents killing their babies and toddlers because they had no idea what they were getting in to. These people do not (at the very best, yet) deserve to have this amazing miracle of a child.

Those suggesting that I and others are fans of eugenics are way off the mark, as that was based on selective breading based on the viability of the offspring, I am suggesting limiting procreation due to the unfit nature of the potential parents.

Were every single one of your beautiful daughter's ancestors better than shite parents? All the way back to prehistory?

I understand your struggle, my sister has recently understood that her chance is finished. Thousands of pounds to get nowhere, I understand your anger too, even though you got through it and were blessed.

Edit: I don't know if your religious or atheist, but maybe your's and my sister's struggles are because you aren't "fit for procreation"? Who said your genes are the ones we need in the future?

 

[Sweet Square]

Yup. People are not thinking things through before they post them because I assume they are emotional about this subject.

People who think there should be limits on who should have babies should look at the history of eugenics, between the end of the 19th century, right up to the holocaust.

That is the path of "let's decide who should have babies", everything from the Kansas experiment, Henry Goddard, right the way through to the holocaust and our current white supremacy..

Yep well said.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Children are not a facsimile of a mixture of their parents, the nurture we provide around them is as equal to the nature they are born with.

Imagine the potential Mozarts, Einsteins and da Vincis we would have missed out on if we "limited procreation"

Sometimes you lot make me think Voldemorte is real!

 

[Blackwidow]

I jobbed some time after school in a laundry and dry cleaning - a small family company in which most employees were mothers with children that only worked part time in the morning. In the afternoon it was only me, an older man named Ernst and my boss and her husband. Ernst was a nice old man with an occasional alcohol problem that the family of my boss has taken under their wing. During Nazi time his parents have given him away into a children home because of a harelip - one of the criterias that qualified him into the Euthanasia programme. A lot of this kids got killed or sterilized (or their parents... but his siblings were fine). He survived, but never got ordinary school education and never learned to read or write. My bosses' father did all of his paperwork for him...

Never let a state or organs of a state have that influence...

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I jobbed some time after school in a laundry and dry cleaning - a small family company in which most employees were mothers with children that only worked part time in the morning. In the afternoon it was only me, an older man named Ernst and my boss and her husband. Ernst was a nice old man with an occasional alcohol problem that the family of my boss has taken under their wing. During Nazi time his parents have given him away into a children home because of a harelip - one of the criterias that qualified him into the Euthanasia programme. A lot of this kids got killed or sterilized (or their parents... but his siblings were fine). He survived, but never got ordinary school education and never learned to read or write. My bosses' father did all of his paperwork for him...

Never let a state or organs of a state have that influence...

People with empathy are shocked when they realise that a lot of people don't act with empathy.

Then they react in a way that is unempathatic because empathy is a slow emotion and reactions are fast.

 

[Halftrack]

I am grappling with the idea that woman should have a sole right to decide what to do with her body in case of a pregnancy. If two people have consensual sex and potential father wants to be a father, I find it extremely cruel that the mother solely can decide to terminate the pregnancy. I get it - my body, my choice, but when does the choice starts? If the sex was consenual, there was always a choice not to have sex or have romantic experience without penis into vagina action (there has to be a better term for vaginal sex than what I just said?).

Fecking hell.

How have so many convinced themselves that the impregnator has any say? In what world is expecting a woman to put her own life, health and career on the line because some dude accidentally knocked her up and has decided he wants the baby a sensible view to have?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Fecking hell.

How have so many convinced themselves that the impregnator has any say? In what world is expecting a woman to put her own life, health and career on the line because some dude accidentally knocked her up and has decided he wants the baby a sensible view to have?

He only gets to be a father at the point when he has a baby, before that he's just a man.

 

[adexkola]

He only gets to be a father at the point when he has a baby, before that he's just a man.

18 years, 18 years...

 

[Peter van der Gea]

18 years, 18 years...

Are you quoting Kanye at me? I was paraphrasing Kate Bush...

 

[Carolina Red]

18 years, 18 years...

And on the 18th birthday?