Academy minutes: Man Utd lead the way

[Bastian]

• 1. Man Utd - 9334 minutes
• 2. Tottenham - 6887 minutes
• 3. Crystal Palace - 6602 minutes
• 4. West Ham - 6344 minutes
• 5. Southampton - 5866 minutes
• 6. Leicester - 5159 minutes
• 7. Arsenal - 4976 minutes
• 8. Huddersfield - 3771 minutes
• 9. Brighton - 3376 minutes
• 10. Fulham - 3176 minutes
• 11. Newcastle - 2896 minutes
• 12. Liverpool - 2600 minutes
• 13. Chelsea - 2202 minutes
• 14. Cardiff - 2118 minutes
• 15. Watford - 2070 minutes
• 16. Everton - 1959 minutes
• 17. Burnley - 1683 minutes
• 18. Wolves - 766 minutes
• 19. Bournemouth - 654 minutes
• 20. Man City - 371 minutes

Manchester United displaced Arsenal last season as the Premier League team relying most heavily on graduates of their own academy.

United's famed youth system produced the most players across the Premier League as a whole for the third year in succession, but the tally of minutes given to homegrown players has previously been the Gunners' domain.

For the 2018/19 season, however, United's academy did the double as almost a quarter of their playing time went to talent developed in Carrington.

Paul Pogba, Marcus Rashford and Jesse Lingard continued to lead United's graduate contingent, with the former pair increasing their playing time to 3245 and 2494 minutes respectively while Lingard dipped slightly to 1765.

Scott McTominay played 953 minutes and fellow midfielder Andreas Pereira 660 as United gave 9334 minutes of playing time to graduate players - up from 6858 the previous season and accounting for 23 per cent of the club's league season including stoppage time.

Their rise to top spot also stems in part from Arsenal's tally dropping from 7933 minutes to 4976. Injuries roughly halved Hector Bellerin's involvement while Jack Wilshere left the club, along with lesser contributors from 2017/18 in Francis Coquelin and Hoffenheim loanee Reiss Nelson.

That dropped them all the way to seventh in the graduate standings, leaving north London rivals Tottenham to provide the main challenge to United as they did in the league-wide academy study. Harry Kane, Danny Rose and Harry Winks were regulars for Spurs, supplemented by just over 650 minutes shared between Kyle Walker-Peters, Oliver Skipp and Luke Amos.

Crystal Palace ranked third, though their hold on that position looks fragile with Aaron Wan-Bissaka sold to United and Wilfried Zaha also consistently linked with a move away - that would leave only midfielder Luke Dreher's four minutes from the season's tally.

Declan Rice's emergence lifted West Ham to fourth while Southampton and Leicester also surpassed Arsenal. Saints matched United for the most graduate players used - nine.

In contrast to their local rivals, Manchester City trailed the entire league in the use of graduate players.

Despite the significant investment in City's academy facilities adjacent to the Etihad Stadium, Phil Foden was the only in-house graduate to feature for Pep Guardiola's side on their way to the league title.

The talented midfielder played just 371 minutes in 13 league appearances, including only three starts - though his involvement in the Champions League and domestic cup competitions means hopes remain high for the 19-year-old, whom Pep Guardiola recently labelled "the most talented player I have ever seen".

City also won last season's U18 Premier League Cup and reached the FA Youth Cup final - and of course, fans will look at the Premier League table and be happier with their lot than that of United.

There were 66 players in last season's Premier League representing the club which developed them, an increase of four on 2017/18's figures.

Only five clubs had five or more as United and Southampton were joined by Spurs and Arsenal, with six apiece, and Huddersfield.

Town were relegated in ignominious fashion but Phillip Billing, now departed for Bournemouth, and Tommy Smith remained regular first-team contributors while youngsters Matty Daly, Aaron Rowe and Demeaco Duhaney featured late in the season as 9.4 per cent of playing time went to academy graduates.

City were one of half a dozen Premier League teams to use a solitary graduate of their own academy, though many featured far more than Foden.

Lewis Dunk, ever-present the previous season, played 3376 minutes in 2018/19 to single-handedly put Brighton ninth in graduate playing time, while Cardiff's Joe Ralls and Watford's Adrian Mariappa each played over 2000 minutes.

Dwight McNeil is the only graduate player to play for Burnley in the three years of the study but having only made his league debut in the last two minutes of the 2017/18 campaign, he established himself last term with 1683 minutes, three goals and five assists.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

That is embarrassing from Man City.

The FA should change the rules to have a specific amount of academy players in the starting 11.

 

[RedTiger]

We're going to absolutely smash last seasons total.

 

[simonhch]

But, but, all those articles written telling us how far behind we are falling to our rivals in youth development. Specifically losing out on top talent and coaching to our inter city rivals, who are putting us to shame.

Result, United 9,334 academy minutes, City 371.

Just goes to show how much bullshit and PR passes as journalism. Since these articles have come out the club has continued to invest in top coaches, young prospects and infrastructure for youth. Coupled with first team management that prioritises academy development; the future is bright.

feck the haters. Don’t listen to the spin. Either from the club or about the club.

 

[andyox]

That is embarrassing from Man City.

The FA should change the rules to have a specific amount of academy players in the starting 11.

Admittedly City's total isn't great. Certainly Foden should get more minutes this season, and I assume Angelino will get playing time too. It's probably too early still for the likes of Garcia, Harwood-Bellis, and Doyle (except perhaps in the League Cup). At the moment it's fair to say that City's academy is performing better at developing players for re-sale than it is for developing players for the first team.

The circumstances are clearly a bit different though. None of Pogba, Lingard, or Rashford would get into City's starting XI, so yes it's impressive how many minutes they got for United last season, but they would've got significantly less at City.

 

[roonster09]

Admittedly City's total isn't great. Certainly Foden should get more minutes this season, and I assume Angelino will get playing time too. It's probably too early still for the likes of Garcia, Harwood-Bellis, and Doyle (except perhaps in the League Cup). At the moment it's fair to say that City's academy is performing better at developing players for re-sale than it is for developing players for the first team.

The circumstances are clearly a bit different though. None of Pogba, Lingard, or Rashford would get into City's starting XI, so yes it's impressive how many minutes they got for United last season, but they would've got significantly less at City.

That's a very weak excuse. Even when ManUtd was dominating PL, we always had academy players in the team playing significant role and mins.

In any case, Pogba will start for City but that's for another discussion.

 

[roonster09]

I think the total mins will increase a lot this season. Going by what Ole said McTominay and Andreas Pereira will start at least 20 games. McTominay is looking more likely to play many games and then Greenwood will play lot more mins than last season. Rashford will be first choice from first game.

Rashford, Pogba, McTominay, Pereira, Greenwood, Lingard, Tuanzebe (if he stays) should play many games and more than they did last season (except Lingard maybe).

 

[andyox]

That's a very weak excuse. Even when ManUtd was dominating PL, we always had academy players in the team playing significant role and mins.

In any case, Pogba will start for City but that's for another discussion.

Agreed on the top part. Obviously the Class of 92 is honestly just a freak occurrence that I think it's hard to compare to. We may never see that again. But even after that I think United did a great job of integrating decent, but not top, top players into the squad (I'm thinking the likes of O'Shea, Brown, Fabio/Rafael off the top of my head). We haven't done that, instead we've chosen to sell them off. The obvious exception to the sell-off strategy is Sancho, because clearly we didn't want to sell but had no choice.

The general point still stands though -- it's easier to integrate academy players into a poorer team/squad than a team chasing 4 trophies. But yes agreed we need to do better.

Ha yes, we've disagreed over Pogba before, but no need to de-rail thread with it again.

 

[Ian Reus]

except Lingard maybe

We should maybe look to loan Lingard out to a championship team to gain some valuable experience to help with his growth

 

[roonster09]

Agreed on the top part. Obviously the Class of 92 is honestly just a freak occurrence that I think it's hard to compare to. We may never see that again. But even after that I think United did a great job of integrating decent, but not top, top players into the squad (I'm thinking the likes of O'Shea, Brown, Fabio/Rafael off the top of my head). We haven't done that, instead we've chosen to sell them off. The obvious exception to the sell-off strategy is Sancho, because clearly we didn't want to sell but had no choice.

The general point still stands though -- it's easier to integrate academy players into a poorer team/squad than a team chasing 4 trophies. But yes agreed we need to do better.

Ha yes, we've disagreed over Pogba before, but no need to de-rail thread with it again.

No, it's easier to integrate academy players into fully functioning team than into poor team.

 

[Bullhitter]

But, but, all those articles written telling us how far behind we are falling to our rivals in youth development. Specifically losing out on top talent and coaching to our inter city rivals, who are putting us to shame.

Result, United 9,334 academy minutes, City 371.

Just goes to show how much bullshit and PR passes as journalism. Since these articles have come out the club has continued to invest in top coaches, young prospects and infrastructure for youth. Coupled with first team management that prioritises academy development; the future is bright.

feck the haters. Don’t listen to the spin. Either from the club or about the club.

1. City are arguably the best team in Europe, obviously exponentially more difficult for youth to break into it.

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Admittedly City's total isn't great. Certainly Foden should get more minutes this season, and I assume Angelino will get playing time too. It's probably too early still for the likes of Garcia, Harwood-Bellis, and Doyle (except perhaps in the League Cup). At the moment it's fair to say that City's academy is performing better at developing players for re-sale than it is for developing players for the first team.

The circumstances are clearly a bit different though. None of Pogba, Lingard, or Rashford would get into City's starting XI, so yes it's impressive how many minutes they got for United last season, but they would've got significantly less at City.

The only reason they wouldn't get into the starting 11 is because your club doesn't know how to deal with youth. You have to buy your success. Case in point is Foden and Sancho. At least Sancho got out. Foden's career is likely going to get ruined unless he leaves too...

 

[roonster09]

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

 

[Cloud7]

In before someone comes in and finds a way to spin this as something negative.

 

[andyox]

The only reason they wouldn't get into the starting 11 is because your club doesn't know how to deal with youth. You have to buy your success. Case in point is Foden and Sancho. At least Sancho got out. Foden's career is likely going to get ruined unless he leaves too...

There's a balance to be struck in integrating youth players into the first team squad. As I've said above, City haven't done a good enough job yet.

We've had a few missed opportunities where there seemed an obvious space to push a youth player into a squad position. For example, when we were replacing the four old full backs (Zabaleta, Kolarov, Sagna, Clichy), we obviously needed to buy a couple of quality full backs, which we did with Mendy and Walker (couldn't have predicted Mendy's injury issues at the time). But then why did we need to buy Danilo when we had Pablo Maffeo waiting in the wings (who we subsequently loaned out and then sold)? It didn't make sense. Likewise, last summer I didn't think we should've bought Mahrez as effectively a back-up winger when we had Diaz waiting in the wings (who we subsequently sold).

Having said that, now it'll be interesting to see if City can improve in leaving certain squad positions open for youth players to prove their worth. At left back, we were linked with Chilwell and other big money buys, but we've decided to go with Zinchenko/Angelino. Hopefully that's a good sign. And we have a couple of obvious gaps coming too: 1) it's D. Silva's last season so we should be integrating Foden into eventually taking over that role rather than spending lots of money on a replacement next summer; 2) at centre back, with Kompany moving on we now have 3 senior centre backs (Laporte, Stones, Otamendi). It looks like this season one of Harwood-Bellis or Garcia will take the 4th centre back spot. I'd imagine Otamendi will go next summer if he doesn't this summer, so again, will we buy big to replace him, or push Harwood-Bellis/Garcia further up the pecking order? And then further in the future, when Fernandinho goes, will we leave his spot open for someone like Doyle to compete with Rodri, or will we buy big again? On all of those examples, history says we'll buy big. But I really hope City have learnt the lessons of before.

I've said this before, but I genuinely don't think the club did much wrong with Sancho. We had a 17 year old on strike because he wouldn't sign a new contract without guarantees on playing time. Of course we couldn't give that. Even now, would he get ahead of the likes of Sterling, Sane, B. Silva, etc. on the wings for City? Maybe, maybe not. He's been brilliant at Dortmund so fair play to him, he made a great decision for him, but that doesn't mean City messed up.

A final, final point. In some ways, if City do get a transfer ban from FIFA for some irregularities in signing youth players it might actually do us a favour in terms of forcing us to integrate more of the youth players (a bit like Chelsea with CHO).

 

[RedTiger]

In before someone comes in and finds a way to spin this as something negative.

It's already happened.

 

[andyox]

No, it's easier to integrate academy players into fully functioning team than into poor team.

Yes and no. Objectively it's easier for a youth player to break into a poorer team. Go back to the mid-2000s when we last had a decent batch of youth players properly break through -- Richards, Barton, Ireland, Sturridge etc. It was great that they broke into the team, but obviously none of them would get anywhere near our first team now if they were 19 or 20 today. They're just not good enough.

 

[Amadaeus]

Not surprised. However, this may be bad news for fans who think we need to spend. I always believed that we had some great players coming through our academy and if necessary, they are able to step up to first team football. However, if we get Dybala, Maguire, and Bruno, those minutes will most likely drop. I feel like Ole will revert to old ways once season start and we will see less academies players playing.

 

[roonster09]

Yes and no. Objectively it's easier for a youth player to break into a poorer team. Go back to the mid-2000s when we last had a decent batch of youth players properly break through -- Richards, Barton, Ireland, Sturridge etc. It was great that they broke into the team, but obviously none of them would get anywhere near our first team now if they were 19 or 20 today. They're just not good enough.

When you are a big club and have poor squad, option is to spend big and sign players to close the gap quicker. We are not talking about Southampton or City pre take over level teams, we are talking about one of the biggest clubs. It's part of club's DNA, integrating young players from academy.

When you have strong team, carrying younger player alongside senior players is easy as the quality in the side will make it easy for the young player. It all depends on the attitude of the club towards academy. For some clubs it's a money making machine, for some clubs it's part of their culture to promote them to first team.

 

[andyox]

When you are a big club and have poor squad, option is to spend big and sign players to close the gap quicker. We are not talking about Southampton or City pre take over level teams, we are talking about one of the biggest clubs. It's part of club's DNA, integrating young players from academy.

When you have strong team, carrying younger player alongside senior players is easy as the quality in the side will make it easy for the young player. It all depends on the attitude of the club towards academy. For some clubs it's a money making machine, for some clubs it's part of their culture to promote them to first team.

Yea absolutely fair, United have done a far, far better job of integrating players into the team/squad. No argument there. My point was that it's not quite comparing apples with apples at the moment.

City have talked the talk about the academy for a few years now, but we're yet to walk the walk. Like I said, there's a few opportunities opening up now where it's clear we have a youth player capable of filling a squad spot. I hope we take the opportunity.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

There's a balance to be struck in integrating youth players into the first team squad. As I've said above, City haven't done a good enough job yet.

We've had a few missed opportunities where there seemed an obvious space to push a youth player into a squad position. For example, when we were replacing the four old full backs (Zabaleta, Kolarov, Sagna, Clichy), we obviously needed to buy a couple of quality full backs, which we did with Mendy and Walker (couldn't have predicted Mendy's injury issues at the time). But then why did we need to buy Danilo when we had Pablo Maffeo waiting in the wings (who we subsequently loaned out and then sold)? It didn't make sense. Likewise, last summer I didn't think we should've bought Mahrez as effectively a back-up winger when we had Diaz waiting in the wings (who we subsequently sold).

Having said that, now it'll be interesting to see if City can improve in leaving certain squad positions open for youth players to prove their worth. At left back, we were linked with Chilwell and other big money buys, but we've decided to go with Zinchenko/Angelino. Hopefully that's a good sign. And we have a couple of obvious gaps coming too: 1) it's D. Silva's last season so we should be integrating Foden into eventually taking over that role rather than spending lots of money on a replacement next summer; 2) at centre back, with Kompany moving on we now have 3 senior centre backs (Laporte, Stones, Otamendi). It looks like this season one of Harwood-Bellis or Garcia will take the 4th centre back spot. I'd imagine Otamendi will go next summer if he doesn't this summer, so again, will we buy big to replace him, or push Harwood-Bellis/Garcia further up the pecking order? And then further in the future, when Fernandinho goes, will we leave his spot open for someone like Doyle to compete with Rodri, or will we buy big again? On all of those examples, history says we'll buy big. But I really hope City have learnt the lessons of before.

I've said this before, but I genuinely don't think the club did much wrong with Sancho. We had a 17 year old on strike because he wouldn't sign a new contract without guarantees on playing time. Of course we couldn't give that. Even now, would he get ahead of the likes of Sterling, Sane, B. Silva, etc. on the wings for City? Maybe, maybe not. He's been brilliant at Dortmund so fair play to him, he made a great decision for him, but that doesn't mean City messed up.

A final, final point. In some ways, if City do get a transfer ban from FIFA for some irregularities in signing youth players it might actually do us a favour in terms of forcing us to integrate more of the youth players (a bit like Chelsea with CHO).

Integrating youth into the team isn't about "being ahead" of someone in the starting 11. It's about squad rotation and giving young talented players minutes to learn. And these young players are only going to get better by playing with better players. From what I have seen of Foden he is already good enough to be getting a solid 20 starts in the league. Again, that wouldn't make him first choice, but it would give him the feeling that he will be one day. Same could have been done with Sancho. I don't know the ins and outs of his situation, but I can pretty much guarantee that Pep would have picked his players he bought over giving him minutes to develop. Same goes with Diaz (why he choose Real Madrid is a head scratcher though because he's not going to get many minutes there either). I'm not saying to start them in a match against the top 6 sides. But they can certainly get plenty of starts against the bottom half of the table teams...

 

[andyox]

Integrating youth into the team isn't about "being ahead" of someone in the starting 11. It's about squad rotation and giving young talented players minutes to learn. And these young players are only going to get better by playing with better players. From what I have seen of Foden he is already good enough to be getting a solid 20 starts in the league. Again, that wouldn't make him first choice, but it would give him the feeling that he will be one day. Same could have been done with Sancho. I don't know the ins and outs of his situation, but I can pretty much guarantee that Pep would have picked his players he bought over giving him minutes to develop. Same goes with Diaz (why he choose Real Madrid is a head scratcher though because he's not going to get many minutes there either). I'm not saying to start them in a match against the top 6 sides. But they can certainly get plenty of starts against the bottom half of the table teams...

I don't think we disagree at all. I'll be disappointed if Foden gets less than 10-15 starts this season, but obviously we've got to take into account that he's effectively competing with KDB, B. Silva, and D. Silva for two starting spots, so it won't be easy. Pep started him against Spurs and Leicester at the end of last season (two huge games at the time), so it's clear he trusts him. It's on Foden now to prove himself when he gets the chance. On squad rotation, that's definitely applicable to the centre back role this season. Laporte is a nailed on starter, but Stones has had injury/form issues, and Otamendi is getting on, so there really should be a chance for the odd start for Garcia/Harwood-Bellis. Fingers crossed.

Agreed on Diaz. If I were him, quite honestly I'd have left when we signed Mahrez too. Real Madrid was a strange choice though!

 

[Bullhitter]

I've said this before, but I genuinely don't think the club did much wrong with Sancho. We had a 17 year old on strike because he wouldn't sign a new contract without guarantees on playing time. Of course we couldn't give that. Even now, would he get ahead of the likes of Sterling, Sane, B. Silva, etc. on the wings for City? Maybe, maybe not. He's been brilliant at Dortmund so fair play to him, he made a great decision for him, but that doesn't mean City messed up.

For every Sancho there are ten Solanke's. Chelsea were highly criticised for not giving him an opportunity at the time of him joining Liverpool. Granted Sancho is and always was a far greater talent but on the same scale at the time of things City were a much better standard of a side than Chelsea. A lot thought Liverpool had stolen one when they signed Solanke though.

 

[Wedge]

We should maybe look to loan Lingard out to a championship team to gain some valuable experience to help with his growth

He's young and still learning his trade.

 

[Brightonian]

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

Firstly worth noting that there were at least two draws between the sides at youth level last season. But if every side played ten games and took an average result I'd concede that right now City are certainly capable of winning at every level.

But that's part of the problem. City's academy has been set up to build winning youth teams to show everyone how good their academy is. It's a perversion of purpose, with no route being constructed through to the first team, despite a manager who is famous (rightly or wrongly) for developing young talents.

Under every single manager post-Fergie, with all their disparate styles and preferences, we've given dramatically more time to academy graduates than City. And we're talking about youngsters who came up through the system when City had already started spending big on youth development. So yes, although these things obviously take time to come to fruition, there is clearly a systematic failure of purpose in City's academy strategy as it stands.

 

[KM]

1. City are arguably the best team in Europe, obviously exponentially more difficult for youth to break into it.

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

What a pointless and patronizing retort.

 

[Red00012]

I’ll take 2nd next year if it means Lingard gets a lot less minutes

 

[Adisa]

Should increase this season as well. Culture has a lot to do with it. City simply don't have that culture. It is just not that important to them.

 

[simonhch]

1. City are arguably the best team in Europe, obviously exponentially more difficult for youth to break into it.

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

One of the worst posts I have ever read on here. Weapons grade level of stupidity. Congratulations.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

1. City are arguably the best team in Europe, obviously exponentially more difficult for youth to break into it.

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Those minutes will definitely increase again this season with McTominay probably being in our starting 11 and the likes of Greenwood, Chong, Gomes and Tuanzebe ready to play a lot more.

 

[SirAnderson]

Is it just me or does adding Poba as academy player skew the results. Yes he may have come through our academy, but he comes back from Juve, feels more like outside that shaped his football more, even though the academy built the foundation. But guess on technicality, he should be added, just doesn't feel like he should for me.

 

[duffer]

Is it just me or does adding Poba as academy player skew the results. Yes he may have come through our academy, but he comes back from Juve, feels more like outside that shaped his football more, even though the academy built the foundation. But guess on technicality, he should be added, just doesn't feel like he should for me.

He was 16 when you signed him from Lille and he was at the club for 3 years before going to Juve. I'd count him as a academy product just about.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We have something of a golden generation at present of players between 17 and 22. Previous excellent generation was pogba lingard and ravel. If he find spots for this group the numbers above could easily double... even if ddg leaves Henderson could prove himself this year and play 3000 to 4000 mins a season

 

[SirAnderson]

He was 16 when you signed him from Lille and he was at the club for 3 years before going to Juve. I'd count him as a academy product just about.

Yes that's why I say technically he is, but come on, most of his actual football molding into what he has become was from his time at Juve. Sure he could have stayed and maybe developed into a better player, but for me, and I stress that part again, for me, he left (not to go into the background of why he did) and that makes me see him more as outside product that an academy product.

 

[golden_blunder]

Champions! Get in!

 

[Red_Beans]

Firstly worth noting that there were at least two draws between the sides at youth level last season. But if every side played ten games and took an average result I'd concede that right now City are certainly capable of winning at every level.

But that's part of the problem. City's academy has been set up to build winning youth teams to show everyone how good their academy is. It's a perversion of purpose, with no route being constructed through to the first team, despite a manager who is famous (rightly or wrongly) for developing young talents.

Under every single manager post-Fergie, with all their disparate styles and preferences, we've given dramatically more time to academy graduates than City. And we're talking about youngsters who came up through the system when City had already started spending big on youth development. So yes, although these things obviously take time to come to fruition, there is clearly a systematic failure of purpose in City's academy strategy as it stands.

Precisely. The measure of an academy should be how many players it produces for the first team, not how many age group games it wins

 

[Red_Beans]

1. City are arguably the best team in Europe, obviously exponentially more difficult for youth to break into it.

2. Youth development takes time to come to fruition, can take up to a decade before even starting to see green shoots. You don't just start firing out elite talents once you build an elite academy. I'd wager if you put every age category in a match against each other City would win the vast majority of the games very comfortably over United.

I mean just take the "win" where you can get it, i'd advise against delving into the detail because all it will do is tarnish that "win".

This is such a poor post

 

[duffer]

Will be nice to see Chelsea move up this league at the end of the season.

 

[Bullhitter]

Firstly worth noting that there were at least two draws between the sides at youth level last season. But if every side played ten games and took an average result I'd concede that right now City are certainly capable of winning at every level.

But that's part of the problem. City's academy has been set up to build winning youth teams to show everyone how good their academy is. It's a perversion of purpose, with no route being constructed through to the first team, despite a manager who is famous (rightly or wrongly) for developing young talents.

Under every single manager post-Fergie, with all their disparate styles and preferences, we've given dramatically more time to academy graduates than City. And we're talking about youngsters who came up through the system when City had already started spending big on youth development. So yes, although these things obviously take time to come to fruition, there is clearly a systematic failure of purpose in City's academy strategy as it stands.

Undoubtedly United have more of a culture for want of a better word of integrating youth than City. The climate has changed a lot though since United were last doing that and were at the same time successful while doing so. There are fewer and fewer academy products getting minutes at the elite level clubs across Europe while they are winning things. Surely you must agree that this tally of minutes at United would be greatly reduced if there were the likes of Aguero, de Bruyne, Mahrez, Fernandinho etc at the club? So is this current minutes total more a result of club culture or the senior squad lacking in quality?

Other than Foden, who is seemingly happy there biding his time (if he hadn't just had a kid that may be different who knows), and Sancho who thought he was deserving of opportunities earlier than the manager did, I don't see or hear of any cases where they have overlooked a talent of a good enough standard to compete for a spot in favour of a big or established name. (let's ignore Gunn as goalkeeper is a special position where substitute and or rotational minutes are limited).

I would say Guardiola does have an inflated reputation of integrating youth simply based on his time at Barcelona where he had arguably the best ever batch of academy products through at the same time and centered around one of them being probably the best player ever.

What a pointless and patronizing retort.

It wasn't intended as such. Everybody knows that United are off the pace of the elite clubs in the last handful of years. A negative tone only arrived in this thread as a result of a positive thing to arrive from the diversity of recent years being needlessly compared to another club (City) who are currently operating at a different level. You can tell people you ahev a beautiful girlfriend and they may agree with you and say well done mate you're right you've got a cracker there, tell them you have a beautiful girlfriend who's better looking than Margot Robbie and the tone of their response will change to yeah she's not that good looking mate.

We have something of a golden generation at present of players between 17 and 22. Previous excellent generation was pogba lingard and ravel. If he find spots for this group the numbers above could easily double... even if ddg leaves Henderson could prove himself this year and play 3000 to 4000 mins a season

I think golden generation may be a stretch but some good talents no doubt. United are clearly aware they have took their eye off the ball when it comes to the academy and seemingly think they have a gap where there should be the next group coming through behind your Greenwood's etc as they have been on a recruitment drive of youngsters from across the continent. Mistakes of the last few years in the academy area, be it coaching or recruitment, can be remedied sharply and "save" current groups down to say the u-12 or 13's but for the 15's and 16's it is probably too late which is why the recruitment drive mentioned earlier is happening. This is what I mean with it takes time, mistakes as well as good work at academy level both usually only show themselves a handful if not more years after the work has been put in.