Academy players who don't make it - Tony Pulis argues for a better safety net

[Bastian]

Was listening to a Times podcast with Pulis where he's talking about academy football (which he's super into as his grandson is in an academy). He's arguing for personal tutors for all players from 14-16 to help them with their other strong points, with academies building networks with colleges and universities, and if they're dropped on the eve of their GSCEs (which happens to hundreds of young boys) to help cushion the blow, get them enrolled into colleges where there's also a games-programme playing football regularly which allows them to be looked at by clubs while they prepare for another life direction.

I was a bit surprised to hear that it's not already the case. And then they dished out the stats: 0.5% from u10 make it, 78% of those who are on a scholarship at 18 are no longer in football by the age of 22.

What would the ideal - and realistic - safety net look like?

Paywalled article. Pod.

 

[DJ Jeff]

damn I knew football was selective but 78% out by 22 is insane.

 

[Bastian]

damn I knew football was selective but 78% out by 22 is insane.

Yep. There's only so many clubs and it's the biggest sport there is, but still a very high percentage. And that percentage is just from those who have gotten a youth contract, which has probably filtered out quite a high percentage already.

Pulis was going on about the parents needing support, and I'm sure that's right, but it made me think of the pressure those youngsters will feel directly or indirectly by the family revolving around their schedule and dreams. So much riding on them at such a young age.

 

[calodo2003]

Wow, that is quite the cull.

 

[cj_sparky]

Crystal Palace adopted a 3 year after care programme back in January, for released players between the ages of 18 - 23.

Mainly to offer those players support in finding a new club, education programmes or in finding a new job.

 

[golden_blunder]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

 

[pascell]

Crystal Palace adopted a 3 year after care programme back in January, for released players between the ages of 18 - 23.

Mainly to offer those players support in finding a new club, education programmes or in finding a new job.

Fair play to them but you have to think that the age limit needs to drop from 18 to below the age of GCSE level?

 

[MUW4Eva]

Was listening to a Times podcast with Pulis where he's talking about academy football (which he's super into as his grandson is in an academy). He's arguing for personal tutors for all players from 14-16 to help them with their other strong points, with academies building networks with colleges and universities, and if they're dropped on the eve of their GSCEs (which happens to hundreds of young boys) to help cushion the blow, get them enrolled into colleges where there's also a games-programme playing football regularly which allows them to be looked at by clubs while they prepare for another life direction.

I was a bit surprised to hear that it's not already the case. And then they dished out the stats: 0.5% from u10 make it, 78% of those who are on a scholarship at 18 are no longer in football by the age of 22.

What would the ideal - and realistic - safety net look like?

Paywalled article. Pod.

Let's not pretend or ignore the women's or girls side of things, they get released from academies/developmental programmes as well.

So they will need looking after as well as the young boys, it is a very difficult situation, but help and guidance should be offered without question.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Crystal Palace adopted a 3 year after care programme back in January, for released players between the ages of 18 - 23.

Mainly to offer those players support in finding a new club, education programmes or in finding a new job.

Do they do this for their women's/girls players, or is that just for the boys??

 

[Classical Mechanic]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

It will be a lot less among the top clubs I would've thought.

 

[Bwuk]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

Agreed. I would imagine at academy’s like ours the percentage who are still in the game after leaving United are higher than the norm, but it’s staggering.

My nephew plays in Academy football here in Scotland. A lot of the parents take it far too seriously and put a lot of pressure on the kids. I can see why some of them lose interest to be honest.

 

[arthurka]

78% is crazy.

 

[DannyCAFC]

It will be a lot less among the top clubs I would've thought.

True, but it shows the fall off in predicted quality overall. For top level PL clubs it probably means most of the players you think will make it in the first-team will end up in League One or something.

 

[Spaghetti]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

While this is true, remember that teams down to about division 7 have academies, and I would imagine that more than 22% of Uniteds u18 players are still in football at 22 years old.

Also, it’s nice to get excited about youth players’ potentials. Positivity should be encouraged on here!

 

[DickDastardly]

I was a bit surprised to hear that it's not already the case. And then they dished out the stats: 0.5% from u10 make it, 78% of those who are on a scholarship at 18 are no longer in football by the age of 22.

Are you sure about this number? Seems a bit high.

0,5% out of lets say 10.000 kids under 10 years of age is 50 professional football players that make it. That's a lot.

Well, considering what you mean by "make it".
Play football in life or play football for a living?

I was recently talking to a guy who scouts kids in Croatia, his rough estimate was that maybe 1 out of 30.000 kids would play professional football at the top level, and maybe two to five kids would play second or third tier football for a living.

Football is a percentage play.
No matter how talented your kid is, don't make it a priority.

 

[JPRouve]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

And when they think that players are cuddled, protected and didn't fight to be where they are. Football is probably the most brutal professional sport around.

 

[SilentWitness]

I feel sorry for footballers. Being a child/teen is something you can’t replicate in the future and some of my best memories in life are from that period - silly stuff like going to the woods and running around pretending I was in lord of the rings / random shite at school that happened. There were a few kids in my school that signed up to teams around the area - one of them was my best mate at school and we slowly lost contact because he was barely at school / had time on weekends or weekdays to hangout. It sounded naff. He didn’t make it and had to start courses in his early 20s and is now playing for a highland league side. We got back in touch a bit but it’s not the same really and he missed out on a chunk of life experiences to become a robot for a system that doesn’t care about him as much as an individual as he cared about it.

It is vital to get players who miss out some support in terms of education and social groups. Get them involved in other activities too so if they do get dropped they still have mates or other hobbies to pursue. Get them focused on a plan B so they do have something to fall back on if they don’t make it. Give them better mental support too, I’ve heard a lot how they make you feel like you’re the best player at the club but when you get dropped it goes 100 to 0 and they just don’t give a shite anymore which is vile. I understand that mentality is huge in football and making players feel good can create monsters like C. Ronaldo but it’s time we start caring about those who don’t quite make it too. For too long have we been treating footballers as non-human.

 

[golden_blunder]

While this is true, remember that teams down to about division 7 have academies, and I would imagine that more than 22% of Uniteds u18 players are still in football at 22 years old.

Also, it’s nice to get excited about youth players’ potentials. Positivity should be encouraged on here!

I dont disagree but we’ve had people even months ago calling for us to play Hugill, McNeil, Shoretire etc. i mean they were just kids and it’s nice to have belief but at this level they’d get destroyed by our toxic fans If it doesn’t work out. And of course statistically speaking it won’t work out for most of them at United. As I said in a different t post some will be fortunate and get PL teams, some championship, some lower leagues, and some will disappear from the game

 

[Bebestation]

Football clubs should be linked to Universities and apprentiships.

This will make football improve aswell because more youngsters will take the gamble of joining professional football if they do have a back up plan with it too.

 

[JPRouve]

I dont disagree but we’ve had people even months ago calling for us to play Hugill, McNeil, Shoretire etc. i mean they were just kids and it’s nice to have belief but at this level they’d get destroyed by our toxic fans If it doesn’t work out. And of course statistically speaking it won’t work out for most of them at United. As I said in a different t post some will be fortunate and get PL teams, some championship, some lower leagues, and some will disappear from the game

You have to play them, our fan base is toxic no matter what and starting later won't make it less painful. That's what coaches and dressing room leaders are for, they are supposed to maintain their teammates/players confidence high and that includes the youngest members of the team.

If anything I believe that United should give game time to very young players more often and make it less of an event.

 

[JPRouve]

Football clubs should be linked to Universities and apprentiships.

This will make football improve aswell because more youngsters will take the gamble of joining professional football if they do have a back up plan with it too.

I don't know if it's the case everywhere but in France any minor that is in a professional sport structure between the age of 15 and 18 is an apprentice, in theory clubs have the obligation to provide and monitor their education.

 

[golden_blunder]

You have to play them, our fan base is toxic no matter what and starting later won't make it less painful. That's what coaches and dressing room leaders are for, they are supposed to maintain their teammates/players confidence high and that includes the youngest members of the team.

If anything I believe that United should give game time to very young players more often and make it less of an event.

Yeah but I’m talking about 16 and 17 year olds.once they start getting known the fans expectations go into overdrive. It’s not good for the kids that age to be carrying the weight of expectations. They should just be going out and enjoying football. We as a fanbase need to temper our expectations more.
I don’t disagree about creating more chances as part of a development plan for individuals who are nearly ready for some first team minutes

 

[do.ob]

Is it really such a big problem?
As far as I know German clubs have to make sure kids in their academy get a proper education, to the point where kids who are too bad at school get ejected from the academy. Some of the brighter ones (Draxler, Wirtz and Goretzka are examples I remember) even finish their "Abitur", the highest possible school diploma, that allows them to go straight to university.

I assume the same applies to English footbal?! Though I guess it wouldn't hurt to also give those that don't make it access to some therapy or life coach sessions, to deal with their new reality.

 

[DickDastardly]

I feel sorry for footballers. Being a child/teen is something you can’t replicate in the future and some of my best memories in life are from that period - silly stuff like going to the woods and running around pretending I was in lord of the rings / random shite at school that happened. There were a few kids in my school that signed up to teams around the area - one of them was my best mate at school and we slowly lost contact because he was barely at school / had time on weekends or weekdays to hangout. It sounded naff. He didn’t make it and had to start courses in his early 20s and is now playing for a highland league side. We got back in touch a bit but it’s not the same really and he missed out on a chunk of life experiences to become a robot for a system that doesn’t care about him as much as an individual as he cared about it.

It is vital to get players who miss out some support in terms of education and social groups. Get them involved in other activities too so if they do get dropped they still have mates or other hobbies to pursue. Get them focused on a plan B so they do have something to fall back on if they don’t make it. Give them better mental support too, I’ve heard a lot how they make you feel like you’re the best player at the club but when you get dropped it goes 100 to 0 and they just don’t give a shite anymore which is vile. I understand that mentality is huge in football and making players feel good can create monsters like C. Ronaldo but it’s time we start caring about those who don’t quite make it too. For too long have we been treating footballers as non-human.

It's the same in any "professional" sports or music that starts from the young age.

I had a friend from kindergarden and school who's parents were musicians, so he had to play the french horn.

While we were out in the open playing like kids, he was carrying a huge horn on his back twice a day to and from practice.

He now plays for the Vienna Philharmonic.

The problem with football is that it's relentless. If you're not good enough, you can't survive.
And let's not get into injuries....

 

[Bebestation]

I don't know if it's the case everywhere but in France any minor that is in a professional sport structure between the age of 15 and 18 is an apprentice, in theory clubs have the obligation to provide and monitor their education.

Well this might be one of the reasons that France are producing quality after quality inside their country.

Whilst im not sure what it is like in England, I have a feeling its quite seperate with the maximum a club doing is to potentislly get in contact with parents and the school with their interest on the child and the childs interest in a football career.

I just feel that even if I was good enough for professional football - my family wouldnt have let me take a gamble to potentially have my career finished by the age of 22 either.

Having that back up plan may see more people take that jump anyway.

 

[Conor]

Let's not pretend or ignore the women's or girls side of things, they get released from academies/developmental programmes as well.

So they will need looking after as well as the young boys, it is a very difficult situation, but help and guidance should be offered without question.

I genuinely think you mention women's football in every single post you make

 

[Rob]

Agreed. I would imagine at academy’s like ours the percentage who are still in the game after leaving United are higher than the norm, but it’s staggering.

My nephew plays in Academy football here in Scotland. A lot of the parents take it far too seriously and put a lot of pressure on the kids. I can see why some of them lose interest to be honest.

That reminds me of when I went and saw my friend's 13-year old son a while back, who plays at a rather decent level. I was completely blown away with how the parents' behavior had changed since I played as a boy. Some of them almost took turns hurling abuse at the ref or screamed "advise" at their sons and his teammates.

 

[redmeister]

I know this will be a hugely unpopular thing to ask, given the cultrue we live in, but has anyone actually looked to see if the average drop out footballer does any worse than than average kid their age? Before handing out any money for this, shouldn't we compare these ex footballers life trajectory's with kids from similar backgrounds and academic capabilities?

 

[cj_sparky]

Fair play to them but you have to think that the age limit needs to drop from 18 to below the age of GCSE level?

I think the 18 - 23 part is more to cover those leaving their academy or system who most likely don't end up finding a new club.

From a glance at articles on it, they mention the education of full time players and a hybrid education model for other players in there academy.

I know it wasn't uncommon for clubs to form links with schools, not sure if it is still a thing. I'd imagine with kids needing to be within the education system until 18 (unless going into an apprenticeship/traineeship), that clubs would have to provide some sort of 16-18 education.

 

[NicolaSacco]

People should bare that 78% in mind when making wild predictions

Exactly, and of that 22% who make it how many would be in the Prem, or in Utd’s case, good enough for a champions league team. It’s depressingly small how few will achieve that.

 

[cj_sparky]

Do they do this for their women's/girls players, or is that just for the boys??

My only experience with Crystal Palace's girls sides is from when my cousin played for them around a decade ago. She played through the age groups, until it got to a point in time she found herself having to make the choice between more hours at work to pay her rent/bills or going to training.

Onto now, my niece plays for the U14's in an academy set up of a WSL 2 side. The young ladies who got told they would be released this year or have to retrial for their places, all had other trials sorted out for them at academies that play in the same league set up. Although their links with WSL sides aren't the same, with no direct affiliation. I know one has loose links to a women's team who play in the 3rd or 4th level of the Women's game.

I don't see why things wouldn't be put in place for the girls over time, but I not sure how to compare the men's and women's game when a number of women in the WSL will already be in employment alongside playing football.

 

[rooney2009]

Football clubs should be linked to Universities and apprentiships.

This will make football improve aswell because more youngsters will take the gamble of joining professional football if they do have a back up plan with it too.

This is the way forward
I don't understand why it is taking so long to adopt this approach
The American collegiate system is based on something like this

 

[golden_blunder]

I genuinely think you mention women's football in every single post you make

Yes and usually in the wrong forum

 

[MUW4Eva]

I genuinely think you mention women's football in every single post you make

It is something that I am genuinely interested in that is all.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Yes and usually in the wrong forum

Huh??

I am just curious how was merely asking if this situation here also applied to the women's section, the wrong place to do so?

I thought that it was on topic, was I mistaken, if so, then I do of course apologise.

 

[golden_blunder]

Huh??

I am just curious how was merely asking if this situation here also applied to the women's section, the wrong place to do so?

I thought that it was on topic, was I mistaken, if so, then I do of course apologise.

The way I’d go about it is create a thread in the womens forum and say “this info is available for the mens game, is similar available for the womens game?”
Though I suspect it’s not, as yet anyway. It’s still reasonably new so much catching up to do.
you can assume that things posted in the mains are to do with the existing male teams.
should you need assistance in the womens forum the best person to reach out to is @jojojo

 

[MUW4Eva]

The way I’d go about it is create a thread in the womens forum and say “this info is available for the mens game, is similar available for the womens game?”
Though I suspect it’s not, as yet anyway. It’s still reasonably new so much catching up to do.
you can assume that things posted in the mains are to do with the existing male teams.
should you need assistance in the womens forum the best person to reach out to is @jojojo

I was trying to keep it on topic, rather than creating multiple threads for the same topic in different places, surely it is best to just keep the one, and just ask a simple question here, where the topic is already established?

 

[golden_blunder]

I was trying to keep it on topic, rather than creating multiple threads for the same topic in different places, surely it is best to just keep the one, and just ask a simple question here, where the topic is already established?

Then it’s opening up the thread to discussing the womens game, taking this thread off topic. Otherwise we may as well let the transfer forum include the womens game etc.
The other forum is for all discussion regarding the womens game.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Then it’s opening up the thread to discussing the womens game, taking this thread off topic. Otherwise we may as well let the transfer forum include the womens game etc.
The other forum is for all discussion regarding the womens game.

This thread was talking about what happens to youth players and their well being, why should that mean only discussion about one gender is allowed, when girls and boys are in academies/youth teams, and suffer similar fates when released or if they don't "make it"??

No malice here, just genuinely curious as to why the need to make a new thread elsewhere, when it is merely asking a question, or staying on topic within the thread?

 

[TwoSheds]

I genuinely think you mention women's football in every single post you make

In fairness I think their username is ManUnitedWomen4eva so it's hardly a surprise!