Afghanistan

Sultan

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There is plenty out there. Women having rights if inheritance, owning property etc is well documented as something that Islam brought.

With regards to transgender there is also documentation and scholarly articles and fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) around transgender. All the way through to Ottoman times. I believe the word used was mukhanathun (sp).

Im Muslim and enjoy looking at things as they are supposed to be and how they are. There is often a difference based on culture.

Interestingly I'm currently looking at something that came to my attention regarding the welfare state and what it took from Islam and how the 12 person based jury system has its foundations in Islam and specifically Maliki fiqh. Again 2 things we see in the "west" but not so much in "Islamic countries". Which raises the question of why? For me anyway
We have lost our way, bro. That's a simple fact.
 

VorZakone

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Interesting questions.

Transgender and women, Islamically speaking were given rights much quicker under Islam than pretty much anywhere. Yet we hear of and see treatment that basically goes against islamic teaching.
Why is that?
 

Sultan

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Let's get back to Afghanistan/Taliban/USA handling of the country over the last 20 years and not derail the thread further.
 

Roane

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Why is that?
Don't know is the honest answer. However there are "arguments" or "discussions" around why this may have happened.

One of the things that I have seen in my own life is the influence of past culture. So I would argue that Pakistani people still have "beliefs" that are based on their history from the days when it was all India and also the British raaj. A good example is some of the stuff happening during weddings. Islamically a lot of it would be forbidden, or in the case of dowry totally a different/seperate context.

So in Islam a man marries a woman and has to offer a "payment", cash/jewelry or etc. But this is something that is for the woman and he has to fulfil it if he divorces her. Not something the family demand.

Other "reasons" include the lack of education in many parts of the Islamic world. So a reliance on the mullahs etc who are raking it in financially.

I'm some parts the initial "islamacising" was done by sects who were banished from initial muslim lands. So a sort of sectarian version took hold.

Politics. So Islamically a lot of Muslim countries would not be Islamic. I once looked at the constitution of countries who say they are Islamic and they would fail on that basis alone. Pakistan for example is not an Islamic country Islamically and under Islamic jurisprudence a majority Muslim country is not what makes it Islamic. It's ruling system (even if Muslims are the minority) make it Islamic. Even Saudi falls outside with it's constitution.

Influence. So for example as a kid growing up I saw more Muslim men with moustaches than beards. Islam states grow your beard and trim your moustache. But leaders and folk like my dad etc had moustaches in the 70/80s and one theory I read was that in the British army only the officer class could have a moustache and this was in influence.
 

Roane

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Let's get back to Afghanistan/Taliban/USA handling of the country over the last 20 years and not derail the thread further.
Sorry Sultan. I have a interest in some of the things discussed but won't carry on if you think inappropriate here. Maybe another thread?

With regards to Afghanistan, and because you seem to be involved there, can I ask if education was just a thing for women/girls? Or lack of?

Reason I asked is because a long time ago I too was involved and education was bad for all, male or female.

As I understood it, with the Taliban taking over it got worse. The main reason wasn't a ficus in girls education but seperate education (and working environment). This was in some parts exacerbated with huge funding cuts and withdrawal of money from say UNESCO (iirc). This hindered school building for seperate education and everyone suffered regardless of gender.

Also women working was hindered largely because of the seperate work places issue. However I did read that women who were told not to come to work still received payment. Don't know if you had experience to shed light on that.
 

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This video is a great intro into the tribal dynamics in Afghanistan. Some really interesting stuff.

tl;dr Ethnicities exist in Afghanistan. But European-style ethnic divisions don't. The local tribe takes precedence. Hence the difficulty in forging national identities at any level (country-wide or region-wide or ethnicity-wide).
 

2cents

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This video is a great intro into the tribal dynamics in Afghanistan. Some really interesting stuff.

tl;dr Ethnicities exist in Afghanistan. But European-style ethnic divisions don't. The local tribe takes precedence. Hence the difficulty in forging national identities at any level (country-wide or region-wide or ethnicity-wide).
His book is excellent, one of the main sources for some of my longer posts in this thread.
 

Sultan

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Sorry Sultan. I have a interest in some of the things discussed but won't carry on if you think inappropriate here. Maybe another thread?

With regards to Afghanistan, and because you seem to be involved there, can I ask if education was just a thing for women/girls? Or lack of?

Reason I asked is because a long time ago I too was involved and education was bad for all, male or female.

As I understood it, with the Taliban taking over it got worse. The main reason wasn't a ficus in girls education but seperate education (and working environment). This was in some parts exacerbated with huge funding cuts and withdrawal of money from say UNESCO (iirc). This hindered school building for seperate education and everyone suffered regardless of gender.

Also women working was hindered largely because of the seperate work places issue. However I did read that women who were told not to come to work still received payment. Don't know if you had experience to shed light on that.
Bro, it's fine to carry on with answering your questions on Islam.

Our charity works on the border of Afghanistan (KPK). We have had a mixture of Pakistani and displaced Afghan kids over the last 20 years. We originally started working with the refugees who were displaced during the US bombing in October 2001. We then moved on to education because we decided losing generations of kids to illiteracy was unhealthy and the kids would never get their childhood back. The Pakistani Taliban has never interfered or stopped us from educating girls. We have now nearly 1000 kids and built schools by collecting money from locals. We also provide them lunch on a daily basis.

Anyway, the stories we heard first-hand of the Taliban rule was lack of finances and qualified teachers. The girls were allowed to go to school but segregated once they reached the age of puberty. It was also the parents who typically sent boys to school. Thinking behind this any small amounts of money they could afford on education is better spent on boys as girls will be married and not benefit the family in the future. Therefore the girls from poorer families ended up helping in the kitchen and the ladies of the house in the fields. This is not too dissimilar to parts of Pakistan.

If you want to check out our work please PM and I will send a link.
 

Foxbatt

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Don't know is the honest answer. However there are "arguments" or "discussions" around why this may have happened.

One of the things that I have seen in my own life is the influence of past culture. So I would argue that Pakistani people still have "beliefs" that are based on their history from the days when it was all India and also the British raaj. A good example is some of the stuff happening during weddings. Islamically a lot of it would be forbidden, or in the case of dowry totally a different/seperate context.

So in Islam a man marries a woman and has to offer a "payment", cash/jewelry or etc. But this is something that is for the woman and he has to fulfil it if he divorces her. Not something the family demand.

Other "reasons" include the lack of education in many parts of the Islamic world. So a reliance on the mullahs etc who are raking it in financially.

I'm some parts the initial "islamacising" was done by sects who were banished from initial muslim lands. So a sort of sectarian version took hold.

Politics. So Islamically a lot of Muslim countries would not be Islamic. I once looked at the constitution of countries who say they are Islamic and they would fail on that basis alone. Pakistan for example is not an Islamic country Islamically and under Islamic jurisprudence a majority Muslim country is not what makes it Islamic. It's ruling system (even if Muslims are the minority) make it Islamic. Even Saudi falls outside with it's constitution.

Influence. So for example as a kid growing up I saw more Muslim men with moustaches than beards. Islam states grow your beard and trim your moustache. But leaders and folk like my dad etc had moustaches in the 70/80s and one theory I read was that in the British army only the officer class could have a moustache and this was in influence.
Power. Simple. They use religion to hold on to power over the masses. One of the most important fact of Islam is Justice. There is no real honest Justice in most Muslim countries. Criticizing the ruler is now banned. As if it is a divine right to be the ruler. If they combine religion and ruling then criticizing the ruler is same as criticizing Islam. This is how they hold onto power.
 

Roane

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Power. Simple. They use religion to hold on to power over the masses. One of the most important fact of Islam is Justice. There is no real honest Justice in most Muslim countries. Criticizing the ruler is now banned. As if it is a divine right to be the ruler. If they combine religion and ruling then criticizing the ruler is same as criticizing Islam. This is how they hold onto power.
No doubt. Power from rulers but also powers from outside entities who realise that suppression of a people is in taking away knowledge and leaving an illiterate population.

It's interesting when you start delving deep into issues where they may lead. For example there were some discussing with @Sultan about LGBT rights and treatments in Pakistan. The notion is always to associate Pakistan with Islam yet the rights and punishments administered in Pakistan against LGBT community are based on ex colonial laws not Islamic laws. Don't want to write an essay but Islamic laws against LGBT in the past were mainly when rape etc was committed. I mean in times of the first 4 generations. In fact I believe that the Ottamans decriminalized homosexuality in the 1800s. As part of their reforms or tanzit (sp).
 

2cents

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In fact I believe that the Ottamans decriminalized homosexuality in the 1800s. As part of their reforms or tanzit (sp).
It’s a bit more complicated than that (thread):

 

Roane

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It’s a bit more complicated than that (thread):

Homosexuality as we know it and define it today didn't exist back then. The laws were around sodomy and this was decriminalized.

I don't have the link but there is an article that goes into depth and it states that although cases were bought forward they usually had other factors that lead to any punishment. So an example of a boy who bought men to his house for his mother was never punished for sodomy rather it was she who was punished for prostitution.

However legalising something and what happens to people can be two different things. You only have to see the rise in attacks in LGBTQ community here in England to see that law is one thing and reality can be something else.
 

Foxbatt

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No doubt. Power from rulers but also powers from outside entities who realise that suppression of a people is in taking away knowledge and leaving an illiterate population.

It's interesting when you start delving deep into issues where they may lead. For example there were some discussing with @Sultan about LGBT rights and treatments in Pakistan. The notion is always to associate Pakistan with Islam yet the rights and punishments administered in Pakistan against LGBT community are based on ex colonial laws not Islamic laws. Don't want to write an essay but Islamic laws against LGBT in the past were mainly when rape etc was committed. I mean in times of the first 4 generations. In fact I believe that the Ottamans decriminalized homosexuality in the 1800s. As part of their reforms or tanzit (sp).
The LGBTQ is the least of the worries. Without justice for everyone there is nothing. They don't want to question anything. As if only some people have the knowledge. Islam don't have any priests for the reason that there is no intermediary between God and humans. But these so called Mullahs or Sheikhs think they are the only people who have the right to decide what is right and wrong.
 

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Cheimoon

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"it was a mistake and I offer my sincere apology,"

He makes it sound like he bumped into someone's car. Also; who's he apologising to, because there's not many family members left alive to hear it...
His own government for not covering this up better and letting it get out.
 

Cheimoon

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I dont think USA is part of the hague deal. They never join officially. Correct me if im wrong
Don't they rather have a law permitting them to invade The Hague if ever an American would be on trial at the International Court of Justice?
 
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"it was a mistake and I offer my sincere apology,"

He makes it sound like he bumped into someone's car. Also; who's he apologising to, because there's not many family members left alive to hear it...
All are equal but some are more equal than others

Also where’s all the concern for Afghans gone now that civilians going about their business are getting blown to bits. I’d assume anyone who is genuinely concerned about women’s education etc would be even more concerned about civilians and children getting blown up by air strikes.

Or maybe that’s just me reading to much into Maslow hierarchy of needs and assuming the need for not dying is the most basic and essential need and right
 

Brwned

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All are equal but some are more equal than others

Also where’s all the concern for Afghans gone now that civilians going about their business are getting blown to bits. I’d assume anyone who is genuinely concerned about women’s education etc would be even more concerned about civilians and children getting blown up by air strikes.

Or maybe that’s just me reading to much into Maslow hierarchy of needs and assuming the need for not dying is the most basic and essential need and right
It’s tragic that they were killed. It’s a good thing that the US have pulled themselves out of Afghanistan as it’ll make them less likely to kill more innocent people. Unfortunately it’ll probably still happen. I hope the backlash against this attack will limit their “targeted attacks”. I hope if it does happen again there will be moral outrage in America. Unfortunately I think the majority of people in the US are ambivalent about it, which has been one of their issues for years. Their sense of morality in war

It’s a different kind of problem to women’s education, though, in two pretty important ways. Women’s education is getting worse, and it’s getting worse under the explicit direction of the people in charge. They have started mapping out a path for stripping away those rights. The US have explicitly said they are pulling back on their engagement with Afghanistan, while trying Taliban have explicitly said they are moving forward with plans to remove women’s access to education. It’s about change and growth.

Put another way, the reason the bombing didn’t get much attention in here is because it had happened many times before, been said before, and it all still applies. It was a disgusting act, if you think people not saying that equals people not thinking it then you’re just mistaken.

Caring about women’s rights doesn’t mean you don’t care about murder. Talking about one and not talking about the other isn’t an indication of priorities it’s just an indication of a focus point of a conversation. Amazingly enough, people are able to care about multiple human rights among multiple societies all at once. They don’t need to be spoken about simultaneously to verify that.
 

Agent Red

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All are equal but some are more equal than others

Also where’s all the concern for Afghans gone now that civilians going about their business are getting blown to bits. I’d assume anyone who is genuinely concerned about women’s education etc would be even more concerned about civilians and children getting blown up by air strikes.

Or maybe that’s just me reading to much into Maslow hierarchy of needs and assuming the need for not dying is the most basic and essential need and right
Pretty much as Brnwed says. People can care about both things and we don’t need to compete for what’s worse.

I haven’t seen anyone arguing it is anything other than abhorrent and tragic which also inherently means less is said on it. I wouldn’t mistake that for not caring.
 

Gehrman

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Imagine if Russia or the UK blew up a truck near New York for 'protecting their interests', killed 10 with 7 children, and then offered their apology for their mistake afterwards.
The US would probably invade the UK to install democracy and Boris would go into hiding.
 
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Mihai

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Taliban 2.0

The Taliban is bringing back executions and cutting off hands as punishment after retaking control of Afghanistan

The Taliban will bring back executions and the amputation of hands as a form of punishment, one of the militant group's founders Mullah Nooruddin Turabi told the Associated Press in an interview published Thursday.

The grisly reprisals won't always take place in public, but Turabi cautioned the world against interference with Afghanistan's new governing force.
"Cutting off of hands is very necessary for security," he said.
 

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Gehrman

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dont they still cut off hands in saudi?
take eyes in Iran?

And over 50 countries still actively use capital punishment... among them USA, China, Saudi, Japan, Singapore so yeah it would seem bit hypocritical to condemn the Taliban for it
You can condemn them all for it. I don't know if you feel that cutting the hands off for theft is the correct way to go.
 

Roane

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You can condemn them all for it. I don't know if you feel that cutting the hands off for theft is the correct way to go.
The cutting off of hands is a hudood issue and has very strict criteria to it. The wider discussion would be should it be done at all. However the big issue in some of these countries like Saudi is that it's done on a whim without adhering to the strict criteria.

I read that when the criteria was initially followed, By the Prophet and his companions and their companions only 4 times were hands cut in 200 years. Nowadays it's a regular thing in places like Saudi which is simply wrong from even an Islamic perspective. Not sure what the Taliban will do.

As I say my points are not on the wider issue of should it happen at all. I'm more highlighting that the process is not adhered to which would make it unislamic, if that makes sense
 

Mihai

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dont they still cut off hands in saudi?
take eyes in Iran?

And over 50 countries still actively use capital punishment... among them USA, China, Saudi, Japan, Singapore so yeah it would seem bit hypocritical to condemn the Taliban for it
Ah, ok, then it's all good.
 

Zlatattack

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The cutting off of hands is a hudood issue and has very strict criteria to it. The wider discussion would be should it be done at all. However the big issue in some of these countries like Saudi is that it's done on a whim without adhering to the strict criteria.

I read that when the criteria was initially followed, By the Prophet and his companions and their companions only 4 times were hands cut in 200 years. Nowadays it's a regular thing in places like Saudi which is simply wrong from even an Islamic perspective. Not sure what the Taliban will do.

As I say my points are not on the wider issue of should it happen at all. I'm more highlighting that the process is not adhered to which would make it unislamic, if that makes sense
Agreed. Considering people are starving to death in Afghanistan, they can't be implementing hudood. Now if the state was providing for the people of the state and someone was still caught stealing - then it's a different matter.
 

Gehrman

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The cutting off of hands is a hudood issue and has very strict criteria to it. The wider discussion would be should it be done at all. However the big issue in some of these countries like Saudi is that it's done on a whim without adhering to the strict criteria.

I read that when the criteria was initially followed, By the Prophet and his companions and their companions only 4 times were hands cut in 200 years. Nowadays it's a regular thing in places like Saudi which is simply wrong from even an Islamic perspective. Not sure what the Taliban will do.

As I say my points are not on the wider issue of should it happen at all. I'm more highlighting that the process is not adhered to which would make it unislamic, if that makes sense
Isnt it just suffice to say its a medieval practice that's simply has no place in the 21st century? A bit like how adultery and homosexuality is punished.
 
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Foxbatt

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Isnt it just suffice to say its a medieval practice that's simply has no place in the 21st century? A bit like how adultery and homosexuality is punished.
As Roane said it's not that easy to convict someone if it's applied the correct way. There are a lot of conditions and proof that needs to be shown before a judgement is made. The problem now is that these rules are not applied at all.
Further more there is going to be a civil war again among The Taliban very soon.