Afghanistan

[Brwned]

I am pretty certain no sane parent anywhere in the world wants to see their daughters being treated second class or not equal to their sons. I respect you and others being worried and wanting the best for the girls of Afghanistan. My debate is about the many nuances that play a part in this part of the world for this to be the case.

I'm not talking about what they want to see. I'm talking about what actually happens. You keep coming back to this idea that according to their religion and their culture, women are seen as equals, but different. Maybe that's true in a theoretical sense, but in a practical sense, you have said yourself they are not treated as equals. They are punished. So maybe people don't want to see that, but they allow it, they accept it, they even defend it.

You're explaining why it works that way. I'm not arguing against the explanation. I know there's lots of nuances to it, I've spoken to many of these people too across the world. I'm just stating that they are treated unequally, for varying reasons. You argued against that to begin with. So let's answer the question directly: are women treated unequally in Afghanistan?

It's a matter of survival. In our society your sons are the ones who are going to look after you in your old age, they're the ones who are going to bury too. In a world with no pensions, no healthcare, no govt support, it's effectively banking on your own financial future. It's very unfair, but even in 2021, in large parts of the world, it's still true today as it was 100 years ago.

Ok, so you agree, it's unfair, it's unequal.

 

[Zlatattack]

I'm not talking about what they want to see. I'm talking about what actually happens. You keep coming back to this idea that according to their religion and their culture, women are seen as equals, but different. Maybe that's true in a theoretical sense, but in a practical sense, you have said yourself they are not treated as equals. They are punished. So maybe people don't want to see that, but they allow it, they accept it, they even defend it.

You're explaining why it works that way. I'm not arguing against the explanation. I know there's lots of nuances to it, I've spoken to many of these people too across the world. I'm just stating that they are treated unequally, for varying reasons. You argued against that to begin with. So let's answer the question directly: are women treated unequally in Afghanistan?



Ok, so you agree, it's unfair, it's unequal.

Of course it is, my concern is that people in the west think of us as women hating savages because of this inequality or unfairness, whereas the truth is, in the places where it exists, it exists because of desperation and a type of poverty that thankfully we'll never have to imagine.

 

[2cents]

in the places where it exists, it exists because of desperation and a type of poverty that thankfully we'll never have to imagine.

It also exists in part because there are certain movements and organizations - such as the Taliban 1994-2001 - who appear to view these inequalities as the natural order of things, and believe they have a duty to preserve them rather than correct them. Hence much of the current concerns.

 

[Agent Red]

It's incredible how the opinions of Roane and Sultan are viewed by others through such a narrow prism. It's almost like people are trying not to see the wider picture. Credit to you gets for making the effort to explain to people in the western world, what is essentially an alien culture to them. I can relate 100% to the stuff you've said, my family came from the same background. Extreme poverty, complete isolation from wider society in our mountains, no access to formal education or healthcare, no roads, no electricity. This is life as experienced by my elderly parents! People have no idea about that setting and then are going on about schooling and equality.

It's a matter of survival. In our society your sons are the ones who are going to look after you in your old age, they're the ones who are going to bury too. In a world with no pensions, no healthcare, no govt support, it's effectively banking on your own financial future. It's very unfair, but even in 2021, in large parts of the world, it's still true today as it was 100 years ago.

The issue has been the claims that the genders are treated equally and that women are not treated as second class citizens. This is incompatible with the reality of what’s happening, whatever the reason. No one is denying the realities of poverty and that there is a logic to boys being given more opportunity, but we may as well acknowledge that and not pretend the limited resources available being focused on boys isn’t to the detriment of girls.

The Taliban also impose more restrictions on women and girls than is economically required, so it’s disingenuous to imply this is solely about the practical allocation of resources and that culture and ideology don’t play a role. Other countries battle poverty without the same restrictions on women being able to freely move/receive education or healthcare/work.

 

[Zlatattack]

It also exists in part because there are certain movements and organizations - such as the Taliban 1994-2001 - who appear to view these inequalities as the natural order of things, and believe they have a duty to preserve them rather than correct them. Hence much of the current concerns.

These anomolies are are a tiny fraction in the wider picture of inequality and lack of opportunity for women in the world. Understandably in the current context of Afghanistan they're a significant part of the problem, but they don't take away from the rest of it. If the Taliban didn't exist today most Afghan women would still be uneducated and remain so because of extreme poverty leading to a lack of access to education. It's sad that the Tali-tits have become an extra hurdle for them.

 

[Zlatattack]

The issue has been the claims that the genders are treated equally and that women are not treated as second class citizens. This is incompatible with the reality of what’s happening, whatever the reason. No one is denying the realities of poverty and that there is a logic to boys being given more opportunity, but we may as well acknowledge that and not pretend the limited resources available being focused on boys isn’t to the detriment of girls.

The Taliban also impose more restrictions on women and girls than is economically required, so it’s disingenuous to imply this is solely about the practical allocation of resources and that culture and ideology don’t play a role. Other countries battle poverty without the same restrictions on women being able to freely move/receive education or healthcare/work.

There are 2 problems.

1. Accusation that women are treated as second class citizens, like we consider them less than us. That's not true for most people (is it for some, in the same way as anywhere else in the world). Would you argue that British women are second class citizens because of the disparity in wages between men and women? You probably wouldn't.

2. there seems to be some an undercurrent of presenting the Taliban and their culture/views as the same as Islamic views. In some instances they are, in some instances they're not. This is causing a lot of confusion and it's getting wheels spinning.

 

[Agent Red]

There are 2 problems.

1. Accusation that women are treated as second class citizens, like we consider them less than us. That's not true for most people (is it for some, in the same way as anywhere else in the world). Would you argue that British women are second class citizens because of the disparity in wages between men and women? You probably wouldn't.

2. there seems to be some an undercurrent of presenting the Taliban and their culture/views as the same as Islamic views. In some instances they are, in some instances they're not. This is causing a lot of confusion and it's getting wheels spinning.

On 1) I would definitely agree that women have on average a worse deal than men in pretty much every country in the world. Where there is full legal equality in terms of rights I think that makes “second class citizens” a less accurate technical description, but I’d still acknowledge the reality often is second class and that every country still has a challenge to improve equality.

2) Obviously there is a link between religion, particularly conservative interpretations, and treatment of women, so obviously any debate on this is going to get into that territory. This isn’t unique to Islam and you’d see similar debates happening in discussions about eg the southern states of America where conservative Christianity and politics are often interlinked. I’m not anti-religion but I don’t think we should deny the issues are linked and I don’t understand the hesitancy in some cases to acknowledge the Taliban’s terrible attitude towards women and that their takeover is incredibly likely to mean life in Afghanistan getting even worse for a lot of Afghan women.

 

[Superden]

we had mark clattenburg on the radio this morning saying he thinks its difficult for women to become top referees because they might get choose to get pregnant which would be a major hindrance to their career and also women would struggle to pass fitness tests.

having skimmed through the most recent posts, cant help but feel there is still an orientalist position, whereby those in the east are unlightenend brutes.

 

[2cents]

These anomolies are are a tiny fraction in the wider picture of inequality and lack of opportunity for women in the world. Understandably in the current context of Afghanistan they're a significant part of the problem, but they don't take away from the rest of it. If the Taliban didn't exist today most Afghan women would still be uneducated and remain so because of extreme poverty leading to a lack of access to education. It's sad that the Tali-tits have become an extra hurdle for them.

The Taliban are certainly an outlier in terms of their apparent desire to put a stop to all but the most basic forms of female education. But they are far from the only group in the region for whom equality of education between males and females is seen as a problem. Since you have referenced Pakistan repeatedly, I thought it might be interesting to see what the attitudes of the those associated with the religious parties there might tell us.

I’m not sure if you can access this article, so I’ll try break it down for you. It is a survey of attitudes towards female education in Lahore and Peshawar, conducted among both secular-minded males and females, and those associated with several of the religious organizations, including the JUI and JI. It finds that female education is seen as desirable across the board, whichever religious sect, ethnic group, or political leaning one subscribes to. However, when it breaks down the nature of the desired education in question, divisions quickly become apparent, and they tend reflect ideological cleavages as much as (or more than) economic lines.

So while some of the urban middle classes may favor a universally applied secular education for both genders, many others (typically associated with the religious parties) will conceive of a female education in more strictly religious terms, to be limited to the rather narrow set of household skills believed (by them) to be mandated for females by Islam. Others may take a middle path, believing some professional roles - typically such as doctors, teachers, etc. - to be acceptable for females (since segregation makes female involvement in these tasks necessary), with others closed off completely. A very small minority seem to prefer their daughters to avoid state schools and restrict them to the exclusively religious education of the non-state madrasas.

Interestingly the article finds those associated with Shi’i organizations to hold relatively more liberal views on the subject than their Sunni counterparts, although it acknowledges the sample-size may be too small to draw any firm conclusions regarding the significance of this. More importantly, there seems to be a significant difference in how males and females sharing the same ideological inclinations conceive of the purpose and prospects of female education, with females holding considerably more expansive visions than their male counterparts.

So while there does appear to be some indication that more well-to-do families are more in favor of full gender equality in education, for the most part the divisions appear to be more ideologically/religiously defined. And it’s not a survey of the poverty-ridden peasantry of rural Pakistan, but of two major cities (conservative Peshawar and more liberal Lahore).

 

[fishfingers15]

There are 2 problems.

1. Accusation that women are treated as second class citizens, like we consider them less than us. That's not true for most people (is it for some, in the same way as anywhere else in the world). Would you argue that British women are second class citizens because of the disparity in wages between men and women? You probably wouldn't.

2. there seems to be some an undercurrent of presenting the Taliban and their culture/views as the same as Islamic views. In some instances they are, in some instances they're not. This is causing a lot of confusion and it's getting wheels spinning.

There's no point in getting defensive about Islam and seeming to support Taliban. I mean, it pretty much makes you look like a stark raving hypocrite

 

[2cents]

There's no point in getting defensive about Islam and seeming to support Taliban. I mean, it pretty much makes you look like a stark raving hypocrite

I think that’s a really unfair post. I don’t see anyone here - including @Zlatattack - supporting the Taliban. There is a tendency among some to grant them the benefit of the doubt on certain matters where they haven’t earned it, but that is mostly born of a desire to see peace in Afghanistan after 40+ years of warfare than anything else, IMO.

And yes, certain posters in the thread are reflexively defensive when it comes to the association of Taliban policies with Islam and their cultural heritage. But in many ways this defensiveness is understandable, particularly given that certain tropes born of this association have been utilized in the service of Western wars in the region and more generally the growth of anti-Muslim sentiment globally.

 

[Zlatattack]

The Taliban are certainly an outlier in terms of their apparent desire to put a stop to all but the most basic forms of female education. But they are far from the only group in the region for whom equality of education between males and females is seen as a problem. Since you have referenced Pakistan repeatedly, I thought it might be interesting to see what the attitudes of the those associated with the religious parties there might tell us.

I’m not sure if you can access this article, so I’ll try break it down for you. It is a survey of attitudes towards female education in Lahore and Peshawar, conducted among both secular-minded males and females, and those associated with several of the religious organizations, including the JUI and JI. It finds that female education is seen as desirable across the board, whichever religious sect, ethnic group, or political leaning one subscribes to. However, when it breaks down the nature of the desired education in question, divisions quickly become apparent, and they tend reflect ideological cleavages as much as (or more than) economic lines.

So while some of the urban middle classes may favor a universally applied secular education for both genders, many others (typically associated with the religious parties) will conceive of a female education in more strictly religious terms, to be limited to the rather narrow set of household skills believed (by them) to be mandated for females by Islam. Others may take a middle path, believing some professional roles - typically such as doctors, teachers, etc. - to be acceptable for females (since segregation makes female involvement in these tasks necessary), with others closed off completely. A very small minority seem to prefer their daughters to avoid state schools and restrict them to the exclusively religious education of the non-state madrasas.

Interestingly the article finds those associated with Shi’i organizations to hold relatively more liberal views on the subject than their Sunni counterparts, although it acknowledges the sample-size may be too small to draw any firm conclusions regarding the significance of this. More importantly, there seems to be a significant difference in how males and females sharing the same ideological inclinations conceive of the purpose and prospects of female education, with females holding considerably more expansive visions than their male counterparts.

So while there does appear to be some indication that more well-to-do families are more in favor of full gender equality in education, for the most part the divisions appear to be more ideologically/religiously defined. And it’s not a survey of the poverty-ridden peasantry of rural Pakistan, but of two major cities (conservative Peshawar and more liberal Lahore).

There are indeed different aspects to it. I bet the more conservative views were from Peshawar pre-dominantly. A large deobandi population, mixed with their pukhtun culture, you can see the difference in their approach to women by walking in the streets. You see a lot less of them. If you did the same survey in Karachi or Islamabad you'd have seen more liberal views, particularly in Karachi. Another big factor that plays a part in what some people consider a suitable workplace for women is sexual harrassment in the workplace. It's rife in Pakistan, including in office environments. A lot of Pakistani women don't travel alone for the same reason, or avoid public transport if they can. This plays a part in the ability of women to participate in the workplace, as well as study.

 

[fishfingers15]

I think that’s a really unfair post. I don’t see anyone here - including @Zlatattack - supporting the Taliban. There is a tendency among some to grant them the benefit of the doubt on certain matters where they haven’t earned it, but that is mostly born of a desire to see peace in Afghanistan after 40+ years of warfare than anything else, IMO.

And yes, certain posters in the thread are reflexively defensive when it comes to the association of Taliban policies with Islam and their cultural heritage. But in many ways this defensiveness is understandable, particularly given that certain tropes born of this association have been utilized in the service of Western wars in the region and more generally the growth of anti-Muslim sentiment globally.

My post wasn't directed at Zlatattack but people doing that in general. I've argued with Sultan in this thread and when I felt the argument wasn't productive, I messaged him privately to express my views and my disagreements with him. Personally, I don't think it's a matter of Islam or Christianity or Hinduism. It's how people interpret religion. There are enough militant parts of religious texts in every religion but foundational aspects of any religion is love and forgiveness. I lived in the US for more than 15 years. There are parts of US that are as backwards as India when it comes to women's rights, but in general, women in US and Europe are well off than the ones in Indian subcontinent. It isn't about a pissing contest about which nation is better. I haven't seen any country where it is blameless in all aspects.

I now live in India which is a majority Hindu nation. I live in a part of India where it's majority Christian. Women are no better here than in Pakistan. We in general have to do much better when it comes to women, but that kind of progress isn't possible if we keep saying and quoting things which worked for our older generations. Yes there were many who did ok in our culture but there were also a feckton of people who put up with domestic abuse. Yes, my grandmother was uneducated but I would rather her be educated. It's not even a question.

My final point is that you don't have to be defensive about your religion at all here, which is exactly how it seemed like when the motives of posters who questioned the womens' rights in Afghanistan were questioned. I think many of us are comfortable in our faith that it provides a moral compass to us to lead us to better lives but it's shitty in hands of extremists and power mongers. If you are religious, it's common place to expect sarcasm and humor thrown at you here. So what? My livelihood doesn't depend on what a random person thinks in redcafe but i think there is a space for discourse here to get better. I changed as a person after I moved to US and I first hand saw what education and independence (Financial and social) does to women. Degree of independence can vary but there is a space in every society for strong independent women which can only lead to betterment of that society, whether it's conservative or progressive. It's up to us to spread the message and effect the change.

 

[Foxbatt]

There is an article about the secret torture base in Kabul.

 

[calodo2003]

There is an article about the secret torture base in Kabul.

Where might the article be?

 

[Foxbatt]

Where might the article be?

3 days ago in The Guardian.

 

[calodo2003]

3 days ago in The Guardian.

Groovy. Thanks.

 

[berbatrick]

Before America jumped in, women had substantially less access to education. It was an explicit policy choice based on explicit gender discrimination. There is lots about Afghanistan that is complicated but this particular issue is really straightforward. They do not believe that women have equal rights to education as men.

Too lazy to follow the full thread, but he might be referring to the 1st American/Pakistani intervention in favour of the mujahideen resistance against the Afghan Communists and then the Soviets - most articles I've read suggest that the major reason for the initial violent resistance against that government was their decision to start compulsory modern education for boys and girls.

...

I know the trope of blowback (CIA funded the 9/11 hijackers!) is a cliche, but in the same line of thinking, there's been a 180 degree transformation of America: they were the bastion of morality, faith, and traditionalism helping simple, god-fearing folk fight the godless Reds, now they are the secular liberals waging war on stone-age religious fanatics.

 

[fishfingers15]

In the same vein, it's weird that the hard left is now 'lets leave the Neanderthals to themselves' no matter what the cost

 

[nimic]

In the same vein, it's weird that the hard left is now 'lets leave the Neanderthals to themselves' no matter what the cost

Huh?

 

[2cents]

Huh?

May be referring to the tendency among tankies to laud the Saur Revolution and subsequent Soviet intervention for the supposed benefits they brought in terms of women’s rights in Afghanistan (inc. in education) while simultaneously accusing the US and her allies of cynically justifying an imperial venture by appealing to the supposed benefits it brought in terms of women’s rights in Afghanistan (inc. in education).

 

[fishfingers15]

Huh?

May be referring to the tendency among tankies to laud the Saur Revolution and subsequent Soviet intervention for the supposed benefits they brought in terms of women’s rights in Afghanistan (inc. in education) while simultaneously accusing the US and her allies of cynically justifying an imperial venture by appealing to the supposed benefits it brought in terms of women’s rights in Afghanistan (inc. in education).

I'm incapable of such deeply thought out replies I think. I'm just commenting on the number of friends on hard left who advise leaving regimes like Taliban alone promoting a non interventionist approach is too high. I'm not advocating military intervention here but without any pressure it will just be another country with a steady stream of migrants to Germany.

 

[Foxbatt]

Too lazy to follow the full thread, but he might be referring to the 1st American/Pakistani intervention in favour of the mujahideen resistance against the Afghan Communists and then the Soviets - most articles I've read suggest that the major reason for the initial violent resistance against that government was their decision to start compulsory modern education for boys and girls.

...

I know the trope of blowback (CIA funded the 9/11 hijackers!) is a cliche, but in the same line of thinking, there's been a 180 degree transformation of America: they were the bastion of morality, faith, and traditionalism helping simple, god-fearing folk fight the godless Reds, now they are the secular liberals waging war on stone-age religious fanatics.

It's got nothing to do with religion. That's what the politicians use. At the end of the day it's all about power and money.

 

[berbatrick]

In the same vein, it's weird that the hard left is now 'lets leave the Neanderthals to themselves' no matter what the cost

The Communists/Soviets killed the village leaders who were opposing their schools. In 12 years their zone of influence shrunk to mostly Kabul and some other cities, and women's education seemed to also be restricted geographically, never really reaching most rural areas.
The Americans were more cooperative with older power structures. In 20 years their zone of influence shrunk to mostly Kabul and some other cities, and women's education was also restricted.

So, fishy, in your infinite wisdom, what would you do that the 2 superpowers, with different ideologies and tactics, failed to do?

 

[fishfingers15]

The Communists/Soviets killed the village leaders who were opposing their schools. In 12 years their zone of influence shrunk to mostly Kabul and some other cities, and women's education seemed to also be restricted geographically, never really reaching most rural areas.
The Americans were more cooperative with older power structures. In 20 years their zone of influence shrunk to mostly Kabul and some other cities, and women's education was also restricted.

So, fishy, in your infinite wisdom, what would you do that the 2 superpowers, with different ideologies and tactics, failed to do?

Stop the condescension berba, I haven't said that I possess infinite wisdom nor habe all the solutions. But we should all be saying something better than its their culture to humiliate women

 

[2cents]

More carnage:

Up to 80 feared dead in Shia mosque bomb in Afghanistan

 

[2cents]

And a week later, Shi’a targeted once again, this time right in the Taliban heartland:

33 killed, 74 injured in Afghan suicide bombing

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1253972/

 

[4bars]

Afghanistan is of no interest anymore. Sorry, jump to the next need to invasion. Nothing to see here in the mess left

 

[nimic]

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/sto...afghan-women-national-team-1866985-2021-10-20

It'll be different this time.

 

[The Corinthian]

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/sto...afghan-women-national-team-1866985-2021-10-20

It'll be different this time.

I’d take news from an Indian source with a massive pinch of salt, especially with regards to that region.

There’s conflicting reports on this death - some saying it’s suicide before the Taliban took over and came to Kabul. Some family members have corroborated that too. Other reports say she was killed by her in laws. There’s this news checking site here with more info:

https://www.altnews.in/media-misreports-afghan-womens-volleyball-player-beheaded-by-taliban/

Whatever the truth it’s undoubtedly a sad and tragic story and may she find peace in death.

 

[entropy]

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[Cheimoon]

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I've also read there is little money left to pay health care personnel. Is the plan here to let this get worse until the Taliban government come begging for help?

 

[entropy]

I've also read there is little money left to pay health care personnel. Is the plan here to let this get worse until the Taliban government come begging for help?

I think the goal could be to make an argument that, without American intervention, this is what you are left with. Also, Biden could just be fulfilling his campaign promise of getting the troops out of Afghanistan. Either way, it has directly resulted in innocent people suffering.

 

[entropy]

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[Gehrman]

I saw on the news that opium production has soared to give people a living.

 

[Foxbatt]

There are 2 problems.

1. Accusation that women are treated as second class citizens, like we consider them less than us. That's not true for most people (is it for some, in the same way as anywhere else in the world). Would you argue that British women are second class citizens because of the disparity in wages between men and women? You probably wouldn't.

2. there seems to be some an undercurrent of presenting the Taliban and their culture/views as the same as Islamic views. In some instances they are, in some instances they're not. This is causing a lot of confusion and it's getting wheels spinning.

That I agree with you but not about the treatment of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Now if the US had not interfered in Afghanistan early on, the Communists may have changed the attitude of Afghanistan and educated the women a lot more too.
It is quite funny that Muslim majority countries have had so many female Prime Ministers but a lot pf people are either blind to it or just plain do not want to see it because of their bias maybe? Certainly a lot more than in any or most western countries.

 

[Zlatattack]

I saw on the news that opium production has soared to give people a living.

Just waiting for the civil war that's likely to happen in a few years now.

 

[Gehrman]

That I agree with you but not about the treatment of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Now if the US had not interfered in Afghanistan early on, the Communists may have changed the attitude of Afghanistan and educated the women a lot more too.
It is quite funny that Muslim majority countries have had so many female Prime Ministers but a lot pf people are either blind to it or just plain do not want to see it because of their bias maybe? Certainly a lot more than in any or most western countries.

Not really sure they had a lot mot than in most western countries. The US yeah. apart from that not sure.

 

[Gehrman]

Just waiting for the civil war that's likely to happen in a few years now.

Who's the opposition?

 

[Zlatattack]

Who's the opposition?

I suspect once the drug money flows in, they'll splinter and fight each other. That'll probably give others a chance too.