Without a long and detailed response, the USA poured money into Afghanistan so it's no surprise most of the things you mention were better. The new government does not even have money to feed the population let alone education. The priority is food first and foremost and not education.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
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Good points, bro.
Very few people will understand the concept of "Aurah" unless well versed in Islamic knowledge. Basically, it's hardly ever talked about in mosques or households and just comes to us naturally through our upbringing and culture. Basically, we know to be modestly dressed. Similar is the case with women's garb it is only ever a subject in Western countries.
In Islamic countries, and even in most parts of India where the dominant religion is Hinduism the cultural focus is first and foremost on the protection of our women even if that means restricting their movement, staying home, etc. It is just how we're wired. To those who don't understand our culture and thought processes, this is regarded as restricting the freedoms of women.
I don't call it backwards. We're different and those differences should be respected on both sides.
My grandmother and mother both born in India did not (passed away), and do not know how to read or write. However, you will rarely find more authoritarian and confident women. Perfectly happy, and never have I heard them regret not being educated. It was the way in many countries and still is where poverty is widespread and no free state education exists. The boys will generally have first dibs with any spare money the family has to spend on education.
PS: Please don't grab my throat. I am not advocating or excusing not educating girls.
PS: Please don't grab my throat. I am not advocating or excusing not educating girls.
If you're not excusing it Sultan, what are you doing? Your grandmother and mother may have been perfectly happy (or at least expressed that to you), but surely the fact that they were illiterate is a great failing of society no matter how you look at it? At the very least it deprived them of opportunities they may otherwise have had, even if they would have chosen not to follow them.
I think the illiterate stuff needs some context. Were they not allowed to learn to read or write, or did poverty prevent them from learning?
I am not excusing anything. Being a realist.
Seriously, people in the West do not realise the seriousness of poverty and the effect it has on the lack of education in poorer countries. As I said previously it's a simple choice of spending money on education or putting food on the table. I think we in the West take education as a given but the reality is somewhat different in many parts of the world over. I understand most of you are well-meaning but realities on the ground are so much different.
My grandfather was a teacher, as were a number of my uncles. My daughter, 3 nieces, and 8 of my cousins are all teachers, so I do understand the importance and value of education more than most.
Bingo!
If the Taliban or anyone other nation deprives any gender of education despite having the means then the finger-pointing and pressure should be applied.
See this annoys me. Not you personally here.
What standards do we set on "education"? And whose standards. Education in and of itself is not about literacy per SE. Even here I think if you can show your kids are getting an education you can exclude from school and go live in the woods.
My grandfather was from a large family. They were like 10 brothers or something. The plague (although it may have been Spanish flu) killed all his family apart from an older brother and a younger one. My grandad was 10. He took his younger brother and went to work at a young age. Couldn't read or write. Had businesses up until he was 80. Self made millionaire. Lived to be a hundred. His first job was at a brick making plant.
My grandmother, his second wife similar situation. Lost parents when about 3. Had one brother 2 years older. Married my grandad and had a good rich life. Lived in a mansion when most literally lived in mud huts.
My uncle, frim grandad's first wife. Nos schooling initially spent 18 years in the army. Married my auntie who was illiterate. Travelled loads and lived a good life, didn't have kids but bought up a cousin of mine whose family wasn't well off. Later bought up a daughter of her brothers as they weren't well off.
I look at education my kids have at school and the robot's they are expected to become and the life they have in front of them of work for 40 years and mortgages and taxes etc and tbh I'd rather they were illiterate and lived like my grandad and even my mum, who I've mentioned never went to school but had a much "easier" life in the end than her brother who dis go to school and worked in Yorkshire mills from his teenage years.
I'm not saying folk have to agree with what my grandparents thought process was and it was different from nowadays. But the thought of going out and working for a wage was almost laughable for my grandma. They had never heard of Marx but they working for a wage was similar to his theory. Especially for the women.
I don't think this is the thread to really get into it but IMO you have a romantic view of illiteracy and/or the lack of education. You can no doubt find many individuals who have lived long, fulfilling and wealthy lives without, but statistically level of education is hugely correlated with future success in life. This holds true for both rich and poor countries, and past and present.
I'm somewhat confused regarding your second to last paragraph. It seems like you're saying that everyone could live a good life without taxes and debt and professions, all they need to do is marry into extreme wealth like your grandmother?
Also, it seems like you're trying to make a point about higher education in the West today and the increasing demands for degrees, but that's not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about any kind of education, including vocational ones. These are also being denied to women in some countries, including possibly again the people of Afghanistan.
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Outside of dress I think you may need to look at some of the other restrictions on women and consider if these are really proportionate to those placed on men to understand why it is a focus for so many people. Women largely can’t work, can’t leave the house without a male relative, have less education and suffer worse outcomes in general. Things like marital rape are still legal. You can argue these are just cultural differences, but it’s hard to get away from the fact women don’t have as much freedom as men in such societies and are having their rights restricted.
Other groups are too for various reasons, but given women are always more or less half the population, it’s always going to be one of the largest groups affected by any unequal rules and so the subject of a lot of focus. Plus it’s one of the most striking differences to other nations. You’re right to point out that men are often the victims of human rights abuses too, and that should also be acknowledged.
Poverty and religious/societal conservatism almost always result in a worst deal for women, but Afghanistan under Taliban rule previously was still one of the worst places in the world to be a woman and at least some of that was due to ideology rather than just economic practicality. Indeed the emancipation of women is generally one of the factors that aids rapid economic advancement in a country.
My grandmother didn't marry into extreme wealth. Basically grandad became wealthy whilst married to her. I was trying to highlight that formal education wasn't a priority and they still made it. I think the focus on formal education is overplayed. To be fair you do kind of acknowledge that when you mention vocational education. Which is something that, to my knowledge women have always gained.
When I say always gained it may not be in the same manner as what we have here. So for example midwifery (even when I was born in the 70's) wasn't a college or university course. More something that was "handed down". My "dhai Amma" (roughly translated as midwife/delivery mother) lived in the neighbourhood and was called to houses to deliver babies. She often had an apprentice/apprentices who learnt from her and became "dhai's". Obviously changed now where there is the formal education for such professions.
This in itself raises an interesting issue, for me anyway. In countries like where I was born there is less a caste system as there is a "trade" system. So we had kumaars which were folk who made clay products. Plates and water storage pots etc. Their kids were trained in this irregardless if gender. Similar with other trades such as shoe making or tailoring. The cloth makers were known as "kaasbi" and there were even names for the fruit growers etc. We were "choudary/jat" which were landowners/workers.
In essence you were born into a vocation and you learnt it whether male/female.
I think the notion of women not working generally is not correct. Simply because life is different and often hard in places like Afghanistan and if you are a farmer then it's a unified effort to grow crops, bring up a family and sell the products.
Under the different conflicts in Afghanistan (so my current neighbours) the men often went to fight and the women ran the show at home.
In terms of Taliban, again here I'm going by what I've read or been told, women were not told they couldn't work. It was their (the Taliban) stance in mixed work places that was the issue. One report actually said that women who had worked in such, mixed, places were told to stay at home until alternative venues could be sorted and continued to be paid.
The marital rape and equality over equity arguments are way misunderstood. Often due to the translations from Arabic to English. Put simply a man cannot rape his wife.
I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism that women will be allowed to work freely in any job they choose so long as the workplace is segregated. The Taliban made similar excuses previously that restrictions were temporary, but they were never lifted. It is a reality that many of the women who have been able to study and work over the last decade will not be able to continue doing so because either it will be forbidden or the facilities under which it would be ‘allowed’ will never be provided. I think it’s a disservice to that group to pretend that isn’t the case. Of course I hope I am wrong, but the burden of evidence is currently against the Taliban and only their own actions can change that, which so far there has been no sign of.
On your last point I suspect there is a difference between what the law ought to be if interpreted properly vs. what it actually is and how it is applied. Where it isn’t listed as a specific crime, or women aren’t allowed to testify against their family members, they clearly aren’t well protected though. You actually wrote a decent post on this a while ago about people misapplying/misinterpreting laws in this way.
Yeah I agree that interpretation/implementation is a massive issue in some places. Not to excuse the oppression in any way my point was to highlight that it's done under a banner, or Islam in this case, when it actually goes against the rulings.
I also don't disagree with you with regards to how the Taliban may implement certain things. I just feel sometimes the whole context isn't applied. What I mean here is that the schooling issue in Afghanistan is a little more complex than simply saying now education for women. It's the same on other countries. Of course this doesn't excuse certain behaviours but there is more to it than what's presented.
So in Afghanistan specifically there has been much "fighting" over education as a whole. This goes back to the Soviet era and the pushing of communism based curriculums even after the defeat if the Soviets. Incidentally this was the issue with the Malala situation in Pakistan, or her father's. Obviously the shooting of the girl was horrific and there is no justification for that.
When the Taliban took over they wanted a a more "religious based" schooling system. Even their name means students so you can see that their background was from a certain type of education. Their first impulse was to close schools, especially those with different curriculums but also wanted to have segregated schools. You rightly mention that they didn't then build any new schools to allow this segregated education. Some of this was in part to withdrawal of funding for schools which Afghanistan has always relied on outside sources. I think here it was the unhcr but could be wrong. Their issue was they didn't want segregation so they pulled all funding. This obviously had a knock on effect.
Again we can argue/discuss that the Taliban were wrong in the whole segregation concept and to be honest I probably wouldn't have much to say. My main issue is that the knock on effects (again not saying it was right or wrong here ) was on education as a whole and not gender specific. Yet the focus became women's education post 9/11. To me that feels more like a propaganda/justification for fighting the Taliban than showing the reality on the ground. If bin laden was the issue for war then anything else isn't needed surely?
Overall I don't think a country like Afghanistan will have an education system that benefits it's pupils for a long time regardless of gender. The turmoil and politics mean it will be a broken country for a long time unfortunately. It never had the proper structures in place in the first place and will take time for them to develop leaving at least one generation that will not have access to decent education, possibly more.
I base that on my own country. After the partition the general population went through years of simply not having education as a priority. Even those who migrated to the UK went through phases where the first couple of kids left school at 16 to earn and get financially secure here and families abroad. Eventually seeing younger siblings or next generation going into college and possibly university.
I don't disagree with much/any of this. We need to be realistic about the circumstances and what can be achieved, as well as the cultural position of the majority of the country. I think the primary focus has to be on avoiding the gains already secured from unwinding, because they have been shown to be achievable.
I don't have any issues acknowledging the practical challenges to offering equality. Most of my posts in this thread have been where I've felt the issues are being downplayed or whitewashed as temporary/in women's best interests/just a different way of doing things. Things will never improve if we can't acknowledge where issues exist.
Maybe I am wrong but my understanding is that Sultan and Roan are saying that only women's issue is brought to the forefront in Afghanistan. With the Taliban it is a much more complicated issue rather than women's education or their lack of rights.
Again this is not trying to rehash an old story but the fact is that if the Americans and the Pakistanis had not got involved in Afghanistan they would have had the education system in place and nothing of this sort would have happened.
Again this is not trying to rehash an old story but the fact is that if the Americans and the Pakistanis had not got involved in Afghanistan they would have had the education system in place and nothing of this sort would have happened.
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Erdogan knows that the Taliban are always going to keep power in Pashtun hands and that they're ideologically opposed to women in government. If they changed those parts of their philosophy, they'd no longer be the Taliban.
This is obviously a constructed excuse for isolating the Taliban. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I can only see it as a Turkish power play rather than a genuine concern for Afghan civilians on the ground. It's probably an opening salvo in some kind of wider negotiation.
This is obviously a constructed excuse for isolating the Taliban. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I can only see it as a Turkish power play rather than a genuine concern for Afghan civilians on the ground. It's probably an opening salvo in some kind of wider negotiation.
Here are some pages from Ahmed Rashid’s Taliban published before 9/11, concerning womens’ rights under the first regime:
(edit) there is a good bit more concerning the extremely confined environment of the refugee camps from which the Taliban drew their recruits in the 90s
(edit) there is a good bit more concerning the extremely confined environment of the refugee camps from which the Taliban drew their recruits in the 90s
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Before America jumped in, women had substantially less access to education. It was an explicit policy choice based on explicit gender discrimination. There is lots about Afghanistan that is complicated but this particular issue is really straightforward. They do not believe that women have equal rights to education as men.
You’re not advocating for it, but you’re stating the reality and opting not to criticise it. That comes across as a passive defence of it unless you say otherwise.
The boys are given first dibs over the girls. In a world of very few opportunities, they’re not even entitled to an equal share of those opportunities, they barely get a sliver. There’s nothing ambiguous about that, it is a demonstration that women are not entitled to equal opportunities. Which is why your claims that they are treated as equals a bit puzzling.
I don't agree with the methods of the Taliban.Here are some pages from Ahmed Rashid’s Taliban published before 9/11, concerning womens’ rights under the first regime:
(edit) there is a good bit more concerning the extremely confined environment of the refugee camps from which the Taliban drew their recruits in the 90s
There needs to be training, encouragement, education to bring people close to Allah SWT (God). Sticks, guns and force do not make a person religious or a believer. If anything it is counter-productive.
People have different degrees of faith or none, and they will follow the rules and act according to those levels. You simply cannot enforce religious rules and expect people to abide by these from day one. The majority of people are not versed with the knowledge to improve their ways or actions.
During the time of the Prophet (SAW) Everyone, from a ruler, citizens rich or poor, business people, farmers came to the mosque to learn the correct methods of their profession and went back to their different jobs and lived according to the ways they learnt in mosques.
With the best intentions and will in the world, the Taliban cannot seriously expect the people to follow the rules immediately and expect to turn the clock back 1500 years. During the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW), rules and regulations were revealed slowly over many years and as people became stronger in faith so it was easy for them to abide by the rules in full without the need for policing. The soul became the law enforcement with the constant awareness that God was always on watch to reward and reprimand for your good and bad actions.
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The point is it's not just the Taliban. This has been the state of play for centuries. Women have definitely not had access to education and other opportunities on the same scale as men, not even near. That's a fact and would be foolish to deny. This is why I and @Roane mentioned our mothers and grandmothers not having access to education.
I repeat, the boys are given first dibs to education due to their understanding that girls will get married off and will spend their adult life with the boys family and spending money on their education will only ever benefit the girls' in-laws. The well-off element will send both genders to school. This is has nothing to do with religion but just the realities of life in poorer countries.
My point is they think differently in that part of the world and see equality differently. The whole cultural mindset is different. I hear the same story constantly on the ground. This is why our NGO made a deliberate choice to give girls preference over boys on education. I fully appreciate your concerns regarding girls being denied education and other choices. I am not excusing the system or being apologetic just trying to make posters aware of the realities on the ground from my perspective.
Unless the country has enough resources to provide free education and make it compulsory the system will, unfortunately, favour the boys and the girls will suffer.
The entire section here (p.587 to 601) is worth a read, but here are the more pertinent parts - it’s hard to escape the conclusion that it is warfare and the subsequent ascendency of the Islamist militias, and not something inherent in Afghan culture, that is the primary factor explaining the problems with female education in Afghanistan today.
The education of girls (p. 591 - https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.118.5262&rep=rep1&type=pdf#page=127)
A tendency in some parts of Afghanistan to favour traditional education for girls inhibited the growth of female enrolment in schools. In 1932, the first secondary school for girls was established in Kabul and in 1941 the first provincial girls’ school was established in Kandahar. At this time there were 900 female students enrolled in Afghan public schools; by 1970, this number had risen to 92,500, 14% of the Afghan students. These students attended 231 village schools, 166 urban primary schools, forty-six middle schools and sixteen secondary schools. An additional 1,860 were enrolled in vocational, teacher-training and higher-education institutions.
In the late 1950s, some of the country’s primary schools became co-educa- tional; secondary schools remained segregated. In 1947 a Women’s Faculty, with both scientific and literary departments, was established at the University of Kabul. In 1958, as part of the modernization process, the Daoud government took mea- sures gradually to facilitate the participation of women in Afghan social, economic and cultural life. This resulted in important educational developments for the female population. In 1960, the various departments of the Women’s Faculty were inte- grated into the corresponding faculties of the university and co-education at the higher-education level was established. In the decade that followed, several Afghan women were elected to parliament and served in the government. An increasing number of female students chose teaching as a profession and contributed to the expansion of education in the country. The next two decades saw a continuing increase in the education of Afghan girls and women. But progress was halted by the conservative policies toward female education implemented by the Mujahideen (Islamic resistance) government in the 1990s. These policies were restrictive not only in relation to the progress of the previous decades but also in comparison to those followed in other Muslim countries. The schooling of girls, particularly in the rural communities, was severely affected. In 1995, the Taliban (religious students) began closing all girls’ schools in the areas under their control.
p. 593
In 1975, 24% of the country’s compulsory school age population—789,000 students, 30% of them girls—were enrolled in primary schools. During the 1960s and 1970s, Afghanistan’s primary school enrolment grew at an average annual rate of 3%, comparable to those in other Asian countries. Over the next decade, how- ever, there was a considerable reduction in primary enrolment rates because of the volatile political situation. In the 1990s, while there was some expansion of basic education for boys, schooling opportunities for girls were dramatically reduced.
The education of girls (p. 591 - https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.118.5262&rep=rep1&type=pdf#page=127)
A tendency in some parts of Afghanistan to favour traditional education for girls inhibited the growth of female enrolment in schools. In 1932, the first secondary school for girls was established in Kabul and in 1941 the first provincial girls’ school was established in Kandahar. At this time there were 900 female students enrolled in Afghan public schools; by 1970, this number had risen to 92,500, 14% of the Afghan students. These students attended 231 village schools, 166 urban primary schools, forty-six middle schools and sixteen secondary schools. An additional 1,860 were enrolled in vocational, teacher-training and higher-education institutions.
In the late 1950s, some of the country’s primary schools became co-educa- tional; secondary schools remained segregated. In 1947 a Women’s Faculty, with both scientific and literary departments, was established at the University of Kabul. In 1958, as part of the modernization process, the Daoud government took mea- sures gradually to facilitate the participation of women in Afghan social, economic and cultural life. This resulted in important educational developments for the female population. In 1960, the various departments of the Women’s Faculty were inte- grated into the corresponding faculties of the university and co-education at the higher-education level was established. In the decade that followed, several Afghan women were elected to parliament and served in the government. An increasing number of female students chose teaching as a profession and contributed to the expansion of education in the country. The next two decades saw a continuing increase in the education of Afghan girls and women. But progress was halted by the conservative policies toward female education implemented by the Mujahideen (Islamic resistance) government in the 1990s. These policies were restrictive not only in relation to the progress of the previous decades but also in comparison to those followed in other Muslim countries. The schooling of girls, particularly in the rural communities, was severely affected. In 1995, the Taliban (religious students) began closing all girls’ schools in the areas under their control.
p. 593
In 1975, 24% of the country’s compulsory school age population—789,000 students, 30% of them girls—were enrolled in primary schools. During the 1960s and 1970s, Afghanistan’s primary school enrolment grew at an average annual rate of 3%, comparable to those in other Asian countries. Over the next decade, how- ever, there was a considerable reduction in primary enrolment rates because of the volatile political situation. In the 1990s, while there was some expansion of basic education for boys, schooling opportunities for girls were dramatically reduced.
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Didn't really expect anything different.
That's not so the case. In the 70s 80s Afghanistan had coeducation. I knew so many students at university. They may not be treated equal but they had a lot better than now
I'm struggling to see how these two ideas aren't contradictory, Sultan?
So when you ask why would they consider women as anything but equals, how is that not insultingly disingenuous to women and people advocating for women's rights? If they were seen as equals they would be given equal opportunities to critical and limited resources. They aren't. So they're not seen as equals. Pretending otherwise is whitewashing, pure and simple.
On the one hand you jumped into this conversation saying it's not right to claim that women have lesser rights. That's what you pulled me up on and that's what you continued to argue with multiple others about. On the other hand you're saying that of course they have many fewer opportunities, less access to education, and generally suffer more than men as a direct result of the system they continue to uphold.
So when you ask why would they consider women as anything but equals, how is that not insultingly disingenuous to women and people advocating for women's rights? If they were seen as equals they would be given equal opportunities to critical and limited resources. They aren't. So they're not seen as equals. Pretending otherwise is whitewashing, pure and simple.
Ah, I thought you meant when the US invaded Afghanistan in 2001, when there wasn't even segregated education for women. If you're talking about the war in the 80s derailing things then yeah, that's true in a lot of ways but it seems odd not to reference the Soviets as playing a role there. In any case, there's a lot packed into that hypothetical but I'm happy to leave it there.
Pressure? What is Pressure in Afghanistan?
20 years of occupation didn't work
The country is heading in the expected direction.
So sexually repressed and insecure and inexperienced with women that they cannot trust themselves and their own behaviour and therefore blame the women and make excuses for treating them like subhuman beings to justify their awful behaviour.
Seems to me like those in power using religious justification (even though no book mentions it) to restrict women’s rights needs some sex education lessons and to grow the feck upland realise women are people too. Idiots the lot of the,m, cultural differences be damned. Says clear as day in that book above that they’re from majority poorly educated places and it shows.
Seems to me like those in power using religious justification (even though no book mentions it) to restrict women’s rights needs some sex education lessons and to grow the feck upland realise women are people too. Idiots the lot of the,m, cultural differences be damned. Says clear as day in that book above that they’re from majority poorly educated places and it shows.
@Brwned
I wrote
"Afghanistan and other similar cultures do not consider women to be second class citizens".
The above quote is me saying other cultures understand the concept of equality differently. Let me try to explain.
There still exists in many parts of SE Asia, Africa a completely different mindset to which we in the West have grown accustomed. I myself and would guarantee a number of posters from SE Asia grew up in similar households where the women of the house were completely devoted to the home and men with full responsibility of providing finances for food and a roof. Very different roles but both accepting they are equally vital. This is their version/interpretation of equality. Yes, this is now changing fast with both genders working with better education and job opportunities. However, it's still not always the case in countries such as Afghanistan and some rural parts of SE Asia due to either poverty, lack of education, jobs, etc.
I wrote
"Afghanistan and other similar cultures do not consider women to be second class citizens".
The above quote is me saying other cultures understand the concept of equality differently. Let me try to explain.
There still exists in many parts of SE Asia, Africa a completely different mindset to which we in the West have grown accustomed. I myself and would guarantee a number of posters from SE Asia grew up in similar households where the women of the house were completely devoted to the home and men with full responsibility of providing finances for food and a roof. Very different roles but both accepting they are equally vital. This is their version/interpretation of equality. Yes, this is now changing fast with both genders working with better education and job opportunities. However, it's still not always the case in countries such as Afghanistan and some rural parts of SE Asia due to either poverty, lack of education, jobs, etc.
This is all getting a little abstract now, the main point is being evaded. There’s one central question we’ve been debating since the beginning. Are women in Afghanistan treated as equals?
In your last post you said “the system will, unfortunately, favour the boys and the girls will suffer” i.e. they are unequivocally not treated as equals. That doesn’t depend on the definition of equality - it’s your description, not mine, that girls suffer from the system. There is no definition of equality that allows for that, it just invalidates the premise.
In your first post you said “Why would they consider their mothers, daughters, grandmothers as anything but their equals or even better?”
So which one is it? Are they seen as equals or even better, or do girls suffer more from the system?
Which country are we talking about again?
My point is equality is seen differently in that part of the world. Yes, they are less equal when it comes to education opportunities and jobs. However, they are not required to find a job or provide shelter for their children. That responsibility is fully on the men. This is simply the system. I am simply stating the prevalent culture.
If the culture disproportionately punishes girls, in your own words, then it isn’t equal.
The only way you can claim it is equal is if you say that girls being denied education opportunities is not punishment. That is what the Taliban say. That’s how they can hold those misogynistic views and practices while still saying of course women are equal, they’re just different.
You say the opposite. You think being denied education opportunities is a punishment. So you think girls are not treated as equals. Was your original question disingenuous, or do you somehow believe that they think of girls as equals, but don’t treat women as equals?
I am pretty certain no sane parent anywhere in the world wants to see their daughters being treated second class or not equal to their sons. I respect you and others being worried and wanting the best for the girls of Afghanistan. My debate is about the many nuances that play a part in this part of the world for this to be the case.
You qualified it with sane, but in any case I'd argue there are a lot of parents out there who value their sons higher than their daughters. It's been a defining feature of many cultures throughout history, and it still is to a lesser degree.
Could definitely be a fair few couldn’t it?
It's incredible how the opinions of Roane and Sultan are viewed by others through such a narrow prism. It's almost like people are trying not to see the wider picture. Credit to you gets for making the effort to explain to people in the western world, what is essentially an alien culture to them. I can relate 100% to the stuff you've said, my family came from the same background. Extreme poverty, complete isolation from wider society in our mountains, no access to formal education or healthcare, no roads, no electricity. This is life as experienced by my elderly parents! People have no idea about that setting and then are going on about schooling and equality.
It's a matter of survival. In our society your sons are the ones who are going to look after you in your old age, they're the ones who are going to bury too. In a world with no pensions, no healthcare, no govt support, it's effectively banking on your own financial future. It's very unfair, but even in 2021, in large parts of the world, it's still true today as it was 100 years ago.
o jiyo Jatta! A fellow farmer.
It's one of the reasons why selective abortion of girls is high in parts of Asia.