After all this, what happens if the Super League DOESN’T go through?

dal

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
996
They aren’t doing anything, this is being used as a bargaining chip.

I think even Gary Neville knows this but his rant is entirely precautionary.
 

Matthew84!

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
339
The Premier league would survive if they excluded them if they joined, if it falls through relegate them all with special play off games for teams to go up,
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,883
Location
London
Plus you end up punishing players and other staff who have nothing to do with it. Relegate Man Utd, kick them out of Europe, and deny the players a chance of success, just cause Joel Glazer is a greedy cnut? This is why it’s difficult to punish clubs, because innocent people are collateral. It would be a legal nightmare too, every person affected would have right to claim.
All of this too! Nothing good comes out of anything in this.
 

Tincanalley

Turns player names into a crappy conversation
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
7,593
Location
Ireland
They've all committed, they wouldn't have done so without assurances that all members would see this through. I'd expect financial agreements are also set is stone. If one club steps away - they'll be stabbing the rest in the back (ironic).

On the same note, UEFA and FA could compromise but would lose all the remaining traces of credibility they have if they pandered to the clubs demands.

It's a stalemate which I can only see ending one way - the ESL forms and UEFA/FA pick up the pieces of what's left behind and try to salvage broken leagues/broadcast rights etc.
Yes... but. This is a chance for UEFA to bring supporters in behind them. At present, if the clubs were docked points and punished and kicked out, the supporters would cheer. There would be a powerful media reaction. This cookie aint cooked yet.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
6,146
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
Your scenario makes little sense and bares no resemblence to football at all!

I would rather watch a competitive league with ten or more teams capable of beating each other than a procession whereby the top two or three will always be there (La Liga for example).

Football as a sport and an entertainment brand has thrived on competition, the only way to get competition is to have a level playing field. We don't currently have that to be fair, but the playing field would be even more tilted in favour of the 'big six' if this league is to go ahead.
It makes perfect sense. Just because you prefer a competitive league (we all do) doesn't mean the successful teams should pay to improve the teams below them.

That doesn't happen in any walk of life or industry.

I like the idea of a competitive league but the thought of teams lower down the league sat with their hands out for TV money for a game played between Man Utd and Barcelona seems bizarre if you think about it in anything other than a footballing perspective. I very much believe that's exactly how the owners of these clubs see things as well.

I'm not saying money shouldn't trickle down to keep the leagues competitive, however, your talking about businessmen. They won't like the idea of handing out a penny more than they feel they should, and to some extent I can see what they mean when it comes to the share of money between clubs.
 

Lynty

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
2,164
Yes... but. This is a chance for UEFA to bring supporters in behind them. At present, if the clubs were docked points and punished and kicked out, the supporters would cheer. There would be a powerful media reaction. This cookie aint cooked yet.
That's exactly what I expect will happen.

Bans, point deductions, relegations - that was all considered and accepted before the announcement. THere is no punishment that FA/UEFA can do that will sway this now.

Players are locked into contracts - so can't do much or else throwaway years of their career.

The push back needs to come from House of Commons - and even then - we're talking $4bn deal, its a mess.

The threats are all part of the play, in reality they're not going to do shit. It's just two sides taking their most extreme position in the negotiations, eventually they'll meet each other in the middle.

The FIFA won't ban the best players in the world, they're a corrupt organisation who've been getting filthy rich based off the star power of these very players.

Similar goes for UEFA, why on earth would they punish the clubs that have been bringing all the money in and literally have billions of fans worldwide? Imagine them banning those 12 clubs from the CL, good luck selling a Leicester City vs Villareal CL semi-final next year, I bet billions of fans and sponsors worldwide are really looking forward to that, and willing to splash out big. Real star appeal for the biggest brands.

Same goes for the FA, why on earth would they shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the most popular clubs that have been bringing in the most money?

I don't understand why people would like to see punishment either. You want United to get punishment for trying to take more money for themselves, which is good for the club, instead of letting it flow to the UEFA? Why?
You think this extra money is going into the club? Is that what you think happens in the NFL?
 

OverratedOpinion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2017
Messages
2,360
I'm not saying money shouldn't trickle down to keep the leagues competitive, however, your talking about businessmen. They won't like the idea of handing out a penny more than they feel they should, and to some extent I can see what they mean when it comes to the share of money between clubs.
They would be very shortsighted and bad businessmen if they thought that making an entertainment product less interesting would make them more money in the long run.
 

Henrik Larsson

Still logged in at RAWK (help!)
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
5,228
Location
Swashbucklington
You think this extra money is going into the club? Is that what you think happens in the NFL?
Well yes, that's literally the plan. Whether the owners then simply will take a bigger piece of the pie for themselves or actually use the money to invest in the club is a completely different matter.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
6,146
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
You are missing the point. Being part of a competitive league makes Man Utd more money than the alternative where we take 50% of the total revenue. Surely you and the owners care about how much money we make?

In your hypothetical, if doing so made the sport of sprinting much larger and in turn earned Usian more money whilst providing better funding to everyone else then sure great.
I'm not sure there is any proven data for the bolded, I mean why else would a SL make as much money as they claim it would? Because people more often than not just want to pay to see the biggest teams in the biggest games.

On the second bolded part, sure that would be great, but businessmen don't want to know about how they can help others, they have a successful asset and want to gain as much as that asset can earn them. A league where the biggest teams are guaranteed a spot more or less guarantees that money year in year out. Whether it's sustainable in that format (with clubs having a guaranteed spot) is unknown.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
24,194
They aren’t doing anything, this is being used as a bargaining chip.

I think even Gary Neville knows this but his rant is entirely precautionary.
We're well past the point where that is plausible.
 

OverratedOpinion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2017
Messages
2,360
I'm not sure there is any proven data for the bolded, I mean why else would a SL make as much money as they claim it would? Because people more often than not just want to pay to see the biggest teams in the biggest games.

On the second bolded part, sure that would be great, but businessmen don't want to know about how they can help others, they have a successful asset and want to gain as much as that asset can earn them. A league where the biggest teams are guaranteed a spot more or less guarantees that money year in year out. Whether it's sustainable in that format of clubs having a guaranteed spot is unknown.
A. Because we are currently giant global brands as a result of doing well within a good structure. I am not saying our value will plummet overnight, probably actually slightly increase in the long term due to the interest of change.

B. It is not about helping others, that is a happy side effect. It is not altruism it is good business to have the most entertaining product possible when your revenue comes from people paying to watch it.
 

Lynty

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
2,164
Well yes, that's literally the plan. Whether the owners then simply will take a bigger piece of the pie for themselves or actually use the money to invest in the club is a completely different matter.
We already know the answer to that
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
6,146
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
They would be very shortsighted and bad businessmen if they thought that making an entertainment product less interesting would make them more money in the long run.
Thing is, how I'm reading this situation (from a fan perspective) the die hard football fans like us lot here on forums and season ticket holders will hate this new league and what it stands for. However the billions of slightly less die hard football purists won't really care about which owners are lining their pockets and will just pay to watch the El Classico or the Manchester Derby in a big glitzy tournament.

That's what it boils down to and that's why they are willing to take this level of risk to implement it imo.
 

OverratedOpinion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2017
Messages
2,360
Thing is, how I'm reading this situation (from a fan perspective) the die hard football fans like us lot here on forums and season ticket holders will hate this new league and what it stands for. However the billions of slightly less die hard football purists won't really care about which owners are lining their pockets and will just pay to watch the El Classico or the Manchester Derby in a big glitzy tournament.

That's what it boils down to and that's why they are willing to take this level of risk to implement it imo.
I suppose that is where we ultimately disagree.

We will see I suppose.
 

Dirty Schwein

Has a 'Best of Britney Spears' album
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
15,171
Location
Behind You
Supports
Luton Town
All I know is if all 6 played with fans around, They'd get massively jeered. Except arsenal and Spurs, everyone would just laugh at them as they struggle to get points at Turf Moor
 

BrilliantOrange

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
195
Supports
Ajax Amsterdam
Plus you end up punishing players and other staff who have nothing to do with it. Relegate Man Utd, kick them out of Europe, and deny the players a chance of success, just cause Joel Glazer is a greedy cnut? This is why it’s difficult to punish clubs, because innocent people are collateral. It would be a legal nightmare too, every person affected would have right to claim.
We have no problem with punishing innocent players/managers when there are poins deducted or something like that in case of financial regulations..
We have no problem with punishing innocent players/managers when the fans produce racist chants..

Why should this be any different?
 

Offside

Euro 2016 sweepstake winner
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
21,009
Location
Yorkshire
It won’t go through. They will come up with something else in a little while and then something else after that until there’s something of a compromise. Some sort of super league will happen eventually though.

The main issue with it is the anti-competition thing. Basically United admitting they can’t be arsed spending all the money trying to get top 4 every year so let’s just have a competition where we will always be in it. This is just absolutely obscene. The need for it doesn’t exist and is obviously to do with money but the game has had far too much money in it for ages now anyway so the sudden outage of that is odd. It’s the anti-competition element that is absolutely outrageous.
 

ti vu

Full Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
9,268
They aren’t doing anything, this is being used as a bargaining chip.

I think even Gary Neville knows this but his rant is entirely precautionary.
There is no going back now with the announcement.

It had been a negotiating phase which forces UEFA to consider to revise CL, but then it seems these clubs want more.

The question is not whether it goes through; but whether it would sustain, and what happens if it dies in few years.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
3,867
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Yeah I don’t really care about making the league more enthralling and I very much doubt the owners do either.

Nobody aims for the stars to be a champion to make their competitors better at the same time.

Random hypothetical scenario; Ask yourself, should Usain Bolt pay for the training and sponsorship of his direct competitors as a result of being a world champion? Of course he shouldn’t.

It wouldn’t happen anywhere other than football.
Man, they're biting the hand that's feeding them. Where do you reckon all the great talents do come from? Grassroots football. Why do you think people are so engaged in the sport? Because they play it themselves.

This is incredibly short sighted. There are deals in life that benefit all parties.
 

Reapersoul20

Can Anderson score? No.
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
5,439
Location
7th level of hell
God yes.

The clubs involved in this breakaway should expect expulsion from their domestic leagues, along with protesting riots outside the ground and boycotting matches - resulting in heavy losses to matchday and merchandising revenue.
I certainly hope this is the case, and that the protest and boycott can be sustained long enough to have a real impact.
 

Mindhunter

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
3,259
It won’t go through. They will come up with something else in a little while and then something else after that until there’s something of a compromise. Some sort of super league will happen eventually though.

The main issue with it is the anti-competition thing. Basically United admitting they can’t be arsed spending all the money trying to get top 4 every year so let’s just have a competition where we will always be in it. This is just absolutely obscene. The need for it doesn’t exist and is obviously to do with money but the game has had far too much money in it for ages now anyway so the sudden outage of that is odd. It’s the anti-competition element that is absolutely outrageous.
It’s really not. I firmly believe Man Utd wouldn’t have a problem spending money to get top 4 every year as long as it is realistic. If middle-eastern monarchs and oligarchs keep buying clubs then we would be frozen out of the CL permanently. We can’t afford two 50m full backs who sit on the bench.
 

Makelele

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Messages
252
People are serioualy overstimating the power of the league, UEFA, etc. Football is the clubs. If the clubs go their own way there is nothing they can do. They could ban them from the WC and other international competition but that would be self destructive.
 

MTF

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
4,051
Location
New York City
They aren’t doing anything, this is being used as a bargaining chip.

I think even Gary Neville knows this but his rant is entirely precautionary.
I also think so. Reminds me some years ago when several of the Formula 1 teams weren't reaching an agreement with the rights holders about money, and threatened to start their own championship. They published a preliminary event calendar and all, but eventually both sides managed to get an agreement.

What I don't know because I haven't been following football politics very closely in recent years, and haven't seen mentioned here so far: at least from ours and Liverpool's perspective (both clubs have similar interests) what exactly is it that we would want from the existing Champions League/Europa League? More money when we qualify? Are we in favor or against more games? I'm a bit lost as far as United's intentions.
 

Offside

Euro 2016 sweepstake winner
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
21,009
Location
Yorkshire
It’s really not. I firmly believe Man Utd wouldn’t have a problem spending money to get top 4 every year as long as it is realistic. If middle-eastern monarchs and oligarchs keep buying clubs then we would be frozen out of the CL permanently. We can’t afford two 50m full backs who sit on the bench.
This is United wanting guaranteed access to the top European competition because their football team can’t compete their anymore. So let’s take away the competition part.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
6,146
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
A. Because we are currently giant global brands as a result of doing well within a good structure. I am not saying our value will plummet overnight, probably actually slightly increase in the long term due to the interest of change.

B. It is not about helping others, that is a happy side effect. It is not altruism it is good business to have the most entertaining product possible when your revenue comes from people paying to watch it.
I suppose that is where we ultimately disagree.

We will see I suppose.
Yeah, I mean I agree with you in as much as I would hate for this to go ahead.

I absolutely believe these clubs should respect the leagues that brought them fame and fortune and respect it's traditions and the framework that allows smaller clubs to progress and reach that pinnacle of winning a league and European football. To change that would be absolutely wrong.

I hope that more money being split towards the bigger sides will allow this to go away and settle back into normality.
 

Reapersoul20

Can Anderson score? No.
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
5,439
Location
7th level of hell
Well yes, that's literally the plan. Whether the owners then simply will take a bigger piece of the pie for themselves or actually use the money to invest in the club is a completely different matter.
It's not a different matter - the owners are going to take a bigger part of the pie. This is not even a question. What part of their actions over the past decade or so makes you think they'd invest it in the club?
 

redshaw

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2015
Messages
5,563
What probably happens is a big shake up and the big clubs and uefa etc will thrash out a system of guaranteed places and larger money and more games between the big clubs. To make uefa do something significant you have to show you'll go through with it.
 

Mindhunter

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
3,259
This is United wanting guaranteed access to the top European competition because their football team can’t compete their anymore. So let’s take away the competition part.
True. But why? Don’t you see the problem with financial doping? How can sustainably run clubs compete with sugar daddies in the long run? The pandemic has made it very clear to them that they will be obsolete in sometime. The only reason United to agree to come back to the CL is if the PL guarantees that FPP will be followed diligently and no further sugar daddies will be allowed to buy clubs.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
14,910
Location
England:
Did I read somewhere that the super league was proposed to start in the 24/25 season?

If that is the case then the 12 clubs could be without European football for 3 seasons if they get expelled from the CL EL.

Surely none of the top players will be happy with this scenario?
 

GBBQ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
4,317
Location
Ireland
I mean if it was just the threat of 'we're thinking of doing this if we don't get our way' then there would be room to step back on it. But quitting the ECA and Woodward stepping down from his UEFA position is huge. You can't just go back, cap in hand, and ask to rejoin. This is going to have serious ramifications whichever way moves forward now
 

BarstoolProphet

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
3,483
Yeah I don’t really care about making the league more enthralling and I very much doubt the owners do either.

Nobody aims for the stars to be a champion to make their competitors better at the same time.

Random hypothetical scenario; Ask yourself, should Usain Bolt pay for the training and sponsorship of his direct competitors as a result of being a world champion? Of course he shouldn’t.

It wouldn’t happen anywhere other than football.
Really bad comparison. You cannot seriously compare an individual sport with a team sport? United proudly market themselves as the biggest team in the greatest league in the world. Creating a bigger gap between the biggest clubs and the smallest ones will only make the product poorer and the only way to compete if you're a smaller club will be through a filthy rich sugar daddy. The biggest clubs gain a bigger advantage before the TV money is distributed anyway, through sponsorships and general market (merchandise, match day etc.) incomes. I really really hope the TV deals doesn't end up like La Liga, even if it probably benefits United the most.
 

GBBQ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Messages
4,317
Location
Ireland
Did I read somewhere that the super league was proposed to start in the 24/25 season?

If that is the case then the 12 clubs could be without European football for 3 seasons if they get expelled from the CL EL.

Surely none of the top players will be happy with this scenario?
No I think that's the proposed new CL structure. Anything I read was that they want to kick it off ASAP and I am sure being banned from Euro competitions (and possibly domestic competitions) means they would fast track it to next season regardless. They already have teams, sponsors (JP Morgan), stadia and slots to play the fixtures in. And for all the negative blowback I am sure they would have no issue getting the television rights sold.
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
3,722
Honestly, I wouldn't be against the mooted idea last night of the clubs having to start in the 5th tier. A proper punishment should be meted out and 9 points is relatively minor when you consider that the other teams are so inconsistent that the 9 point deduction is going to be rendered almost null within 6 weeks of the season starting.
That really would be trickle down economics seeing div 2 clubs getting % of Old Trafford gates.
 

red4ever 79

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
8,020
Location
Czech Republic
If it doesnt go through, I would still like to see some hard sanctions to deter this idea moving forwards. Significant cash and points deduction, or even relegation down one tier.
 

GatoLoco

Full Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
1,201
Supports
Real Madrid
Reputations have been damaged. Ours and Liverpool’s won’t be restored until the owners are gone. City fans are probably slightly less determined to boot theirs out in disgrace...
Not sure it has. The preparations for the World Cup have caused 6500 deaths and millions (not me) will still watch it. People need bread and circuses and will take it as long as it is offered to them.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
14,910
Location
England:
No I think that's the proposed new CL structure. Anything I read was that they want to kick it off ASAP and I am sure being banned from Euro competitions (and possibly domestic competitions) means they would fast track it to next season regardless. They already have teams, sponsors (JP Morgan), stadia and slots to play the fixtures in. And for all the negative blowback I am sure they would have no issue getting the television rights sold.
Ah, that makes more sense. Cheers bud.
 

Adamsk7

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
1,583
For those saying it’s a bargaining tool, why would the directors of these clubs stand down from high ranking positions at the ECA and UEFA where they have a say in shaping the way the game works? There is no way. The guy at Juventus was the bloody president of the ECA ffs. they aren’t gonna be welcomed back with open arms.