Aguero vs Henry: The Greatest PL #9?

charlenefan

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Again a peak is not a career and Aguero has never played those sort of minutes, its there in black and white. No ones shitting on RVN he was great, but there is a reason he's never involved in the debate anywhere and barely involved on a United forum.. its always Shearer, Henry, Aguero for best premier league striker and the later 2 for best foreigner. You can't punish the others because RVN dropped off when he should have been peaking...

Like I said I'm not shitting on the dude, I remember being blown away at how good he was. Lethal but he didn't do it for long enough to be in the discussion, which is why he never is.
Yes but you said and I quote

RVN was a top striker but never in Kun's league as a goal scorer

And then followed that up with

He was great but Aguero is a different level

I'm not disputing Aguero has had the longer PL career (just over 100 games longer at the moment) but RVN was never in Agueros league? Aguero is different level? Fact is it's the other way around, compare both at their very best and it's Aguero who's not in RVN's league
 

padr81

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Aguero has already cemented himself as a top 3 PL forward. Ruud might not even make top 5 when Kane ends his career at Spurs.

However it highly debatable whether is Aguero the overrall better player. His international and CL record will definitely count against him.
Aguero has 41 goals in 62 CL games for City. RVN has 51 in 66 from his time at United and Real. (I don't want to use RVN's other clubs as its unfair, same with Kun even at Atletico as they weren't a top side)
Aguero has 41 goals in 97 internationals.. RVN 35 in 70. While its fair to say RVN had the better international career by some distance but the scoring rates are 0.42 vs 0.5.

I'm not even saying he was a better player, I'm saying that in the discussion for best Premier League striker RVN doesn't get in. The guy was amazing. Probably moved to a top club a little too late and lost it with that injury. I'm not trying to do him a disservice just saying, he's not at that table in the PL. Had he not had that horrible injury in 04-05 who knows what he would have become.
 

padr81

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Yes but you said and I quote

RVN was a top striker but never in Kun's league as a goal scorer

And then followed that up with

He was great but Aguero is a different level

I'm not disputing Aguero has had the longer PL career (just over 100 games longer at the moment) but RVN was never in Agueros league? Aguero is different level? Fact is it's the other way around, compare both at their very best and it's Aguero who's not in RVN's league
I should have clarified and said in terms of in the PL, more how they are viewed. Of course the guy was a machine, I'm not disputing that. When I mean as a goal scorer and different level, I didn't mean in terms of ability I mean in terms of the history of the premier league. Also peak Aguero is easily a match for peak RVN he just hasn't played that many minutes in a season. Hence the disparity in goals per minute.
 

sebsheep

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I took a look at the average mins per goal of Henry, RVN and Aguero and the average goals per game in the premier league during their time here. Goals per minute isn't an infallible stat though, interestingly RVN and Henry are the only players in the top 10 of goals per minute that aren't from the last 10 years.
We have a decent amount more goals per game during Aguero's years. It's pretty difficult to compare scoring records during different time frames in the league and we don't seem to have anywhere near the amount of top defences we once had.

Henry - 121.8 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.59
RVN - 128.8 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.593
Aguero - 108.81 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.748
 

padr81

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Only a slight exaggeration which tells you how good Henry was. Henry still, but that takes nothing away from Aguero.
Crazy to think but thats the best and possibly only way I can describe him. he was also a better dribbler than both.
 

Skills

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RVN was a top striker but never in Kun's league as a goal scorer, which is why he's not considered in the debate any time it comes up.
No one is really.. its frightening how good Kun's ability to score goals is in comparison to every other stiker in prem history.
Given Salah, Auba and Jesus haven't had that many seasons and its hard to know if it'll be maintained.. Aguero and Henry stand out as easily the 2 best. Kane too is stunning but hasn't yet quite the longevity.

Sergio - 106 minutes per goal.
Kane -117
Auba - 118
Salah - 119
Henry - 121 (considering his assists as well, his ration is amazing).
Jesus - 122
RVN - 128
Suarez - 134
RVP - 139
Crespo - 140
Isn't it telling that the list is almost exclusively players from the last 10 years?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/data-what-it-takes-to-succeed-in-the-league-now-vs-a-decade-ago.452406/

That thread shows how the average PL winning team (in the last 10 years) scores about 10 goals per season more than they did between between 99-2009.
 

Skills

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I took a look at the average mins per goal of Henry, RVN and Aguero and the average goals per game in the premier league during their time here. Goals per minute isn't an infallible stat though, interestingly RVN and Henry are the only players in the top 10 of goals per minute that aren't from the last 10 years.
We have a decent amount more goals per game during Aguero's years. It's pretty difficult to compare scoring records during different time frames in the league and we don't seem to have anywhere near the amount of top defences we once had.

Henry - 121.8 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.59
RVN - 128.8 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.593
Aguero - 108.81 mins/g with the premier league average goals per game of 2.748
It's more to do with approach. The adoption of high defensive lines, extremely attacking full backs & ball playing CBs show how the way teams approach games has changed. They've sacrificed defensive efficiency to score more goals, and that makes defenders look worse and attackers look better in comparison.
 

IFC 1905

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People calling aguero a poacher is laughable. Peak aguero could tear apart entire defenses on his own. I still remember that goal he scored vs United at old trafford leaving everyone behind changing the pace and holding everyone trying to get him

 

GlasgowCeltic

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Didn't realise Aguero's CL record was that good, can't remember a single CL goal he's scored.
 

padr81

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Isn't it telling that the list is almost exclusively players from the last 10 years?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/data-what-it-takes-to-succeed-in-the-league-now-vs-a-decade-ago.452406/

That thread shows how the average PL winning team (in the last 10 years) scores about 10 goals per season more than they did between between 99-2009.
Its easy to do it for a couple of seasons though, there was a time Kevin Phillips would be on that list. Doing it for a year or two is different to doing it consistently. Hence why I was dismissive of Salah etc.. until they've proved more.
It is something worth factoring in.

My issue with RVN is not so much the goals as how they are distributed (110 in 3 seasons (aged 25-27) followed by 104 between than and when he left Real.) Admittedly he spent much of his 28th year hurt and was never the same coming back. It's not a question of talent, its a question of how much one values 3 seasons in an entire career.

I stated earlier I believe RVN should have moved to a big league earlier and (perhaps left earlier). Prime RVN never matched what mid 20's RVN did (we never saw prime RVN because of that injury). How would he fare without that injury we'll never know. I'll be sure to phrase it better this time.

In terms of premier league striker, even factoring in the goal jump he's behind Aguero. In terms of ability its impossible to call. Aguero has missed alot of games due to bad hamstrings but never had a potentially career destroying one like RVN. We got 3 years of great RVN and 1.5 of average RVN in the premier league.

Of Aguero's 9 seasons we've had 8 excellent ones and 1 poorish (by his standards one 0.5 goal average). Ironically Aguero's worst season came in a title winning one, where we broke the league goal scoring record but it was like RVN's an injury hit one. I would also say Aguero's ability to adapt to his changing body, injury problems is a plus in his column too. Aguero has never had to deal with a major injury like RVN and RVN with the constant issues Kun has.

In fairness to the OP I started this debate when what he had said was in the box. If he had said at their peaks, I'm not have quoted, at their peaks he's probably spot on. its a tough one to call. Over the course of their careers though its really not.
 

padr81

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Didn't realise Aguero's CL record was that good, can't remember a single CL goal he's scored.
He takes a lot of flak because he's probably our greatest ever player but honestly its the other legends that have let us down in the CL. David Silva has never turned up for us in it, not once. Yaya was never at his best. Fernandinho panics. Kompany rash. Sergio has always kind of just done his thing. Gets a chance he'll score but against bigger teams he's rarely got the ball or gotten a kick.

Even his international record wouldn't be so terrible if how many of those apps were as a sub were factored in.
He's got 41 goals in 97 appearances but of those 97 appearances 38 were as a sub. So he's got 41 goals for Argentina but only started 59 games. He's got 97 caps but played just less than 60 full games worth of minutes.

Going back to RVN who even I deem to have had a far better international career.
Aguero - 5393 minutes 41 goals. - 1 goal every 131 minutes (a fair bit worse than his club average)
RVN - 4551 minutes 35 goals. - 1 goal every 130 minutes. (just worse than career club average)

Yet for some reason Kun is seen as an international failure, RVN as a legend. The big difference maker being RVN did it when it counted, Aguero never did in an Argie shirt.
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo

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As opposed to your argument of posting Ruud was better with nothing to back it up?
I don’t have to challenge the daft statistics.Aguero is playing in a side that rattles in cricket scores every couple of weeks. It’s a different environment.

Ruud shot from both sides, had a better first touch with either foot, far better in the air, was as quick without looking it and his ability to get a shot off was unrivalled.

Would he have been a better number 9 in today’s Premier League, for City or Liverpool? Never in a million years.

But writing out pages of goals per game stats is beyond stupid.

In terms of PL Number 9’s, Aguero is top 10.

But he’s plenty behind Ruud, Henry, Rooney, Drogba, Suarez, Shearer
 

MysticRed

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I’m a big admirer of Aguero but it’s not really close. Henry was comfortably a superior player.
I ditto that sentiment exactly. Henry was unstoppable on his day (which was a lot), seem to glide past players and score some amazing goals
 

youngrell

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I ditto that sentiment exactly. Henry was unstoppable on his day (which was a lot), seem to glide past players and score some amazing goals
He’s one of the few players in PL history that I feared as an opponent. He had the ability to do anything and I was never confident of containing him.

While you know Aguero can hurt you, he does not fill me with any such worry.
 

NewGlory

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He’s one of the few players in PL history that I feared as an opponent. He had the ability to do anything and I was never confident of containing him.

While you know Aguero can hurt you, he does not fill me with any such worry.
This sums it up perfectly. And a reminder that "stats" are not always telling the full story in football.
 

11101

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I don’t have to challenge the daft statistics.Aguero is playing in a side that rattles in cricket scores every couple of weeks. It’s a different environment.

Ruud shot from both sides, had a better first touch with either foot, far better in the air, was as quick without looking it and his ability to get a shot off was unrivalled.

Would he have been a better number 9 in today’s Premier League, for City or Liverpool? Never in a million years.

But writing out pages of goals per game stats is beyond stupid.

In terms of PL Number 9’s, Aguero is top 10.

But he’s plenty behind Ruud, Henry, Rooney, Drogba, Suarez, Shearer
Come on now, you cant list Drogba and Suarez there. He is easily as good at what he does as they were. Arguably some of the others too.
 
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He’s one of the few players in PL history that I feared as an opponent. He had the ability to do anything and I was never confident of containing him.

While you know Aguero can hurt you, he does not fill me with any such worry.
Henry and Shearer in the PL, fat Ronaldo and Messi in Europe - those players I feared Utd playing. Mind you, those are some of the greats in modern football. Aguero is a fantastic player, and it’s no slight on him to say he’s not as good as Henry was. Very few players have his longevity, and his scoring record is brilliant.
 

montpelier

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Henry might even take it over Ronaldo for best player on just EPL stuff.

For goals, it has always felt like Shearer. I also prefer considering a 3-4 season peak to decide who is 'best' with longevity as back up.

On my basis, its worth having a look at Robbie Fowler (unfortunately).
 

Castia

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Both brilliant players but Henry was better, he was truly world class.
 

caid

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Its funny, i was thinking about the top 10 strikers in the premier league the other day and I completely forgot Aguero. Probably a bit of disregarding those still playing (was thinking Kane) and him playing for City.
 

MrEleson

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Henry might even take it over Ronaldo for best player on just EPL stuff.

For goals, it has always felt like Shearer. I also prefer considering a 3-4 season peak to decide who is 'best' with longevity as back up.

On my basis, its worth having a look at Robbie Fowler (unfortunately).
Ronaldo’s 07/08 eclipses any of Henry’s peak EPL seasons imo which ofcourse was still far from Ronaldo’s actual peak.

I’d still take Henry over Aguero though..just.
 

Van Piorsing

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The impact Henry had on Arsenal made that team at some point competing with SAF's trophy winning machine, but then again so does Aguero in City at some point.

That being said Henry made look everything ridiculously smooth and easy... Overall I prefer Bergkamp over them both anyway. :cool:
 

padr81

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I don’t have to challenge the daft statistics.Aguero is playing in a side that rattles in cricket scores every couple of weeks. It’s a different environment.

Ruud shot from both sides, had a better first touch with either foot, far better in the air, was as quick without looking it and his ability to get a shot off was unrivalled.

Would he have been a better number 9 in today’s Premier League, for City or Liverpool? Never in a million years.

But writing out pages of goals per game stats is beyond stupid.

In terms of PL Number 9’s, Aguero is top 10.

But he’s plenty behind Ruud, Henry, Rooney, Drogba, Suarez, Shearer
Please... One has 95 premier league goals the other 175.... The one with 95 is a PL legend and the one with 175 a top 10 player but nowhere near....

I'm out of this one. Possibly the worst post I've ever read and I've read Glaston.
 
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amolbhatia50k

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A lot of disrespect towards RVN in this post, Henry's name gets thrown into conversations because he was more than just a goal scorer, RVN's name is very rarely mentioned because A- not much longevity and B- he was with us during a down period for the club

RVN at his best between 2001-2003 beats any 2 year period Aguero has produced
From the strikers I've seen I'd go for

Henry
RVN
Aguero
RVP

Although RVP at his very very best, was probably even better and more complete than 2 and 3.
 

amolbhatia50k

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What's often forgotten about RvN though is that he lost a couple of seasons to injury. He was supposed to transfer to youse a lot earlier but sustained a major injury while negotiations were going on. I remember being on the platform at Romford station when I heard news of his injury on Talksport.

If he's been with the Mancs sooner he'd be much higher in stats.
He also played for one of our weaker sides of the SAF era. 03 was fantastic but we were on the wane with what followed the next 3 years.
 

momo83

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Yes but you said and I quote

RVN was a top striker but never in Kun's league as a goal scorer

And then followed that up with

He was great but Aguero is a different level

I'm not disputing Aguero has had the longer PL career (just over 100 games longer at the moment) but RVN was never in Agueros league? Aguero is different level? Fact is it's the other way around, compare both at their very best and it's Aguero who's not in RVN's league
Actually. I remember wanting RVN out. The reason why was because I noticed that he was easily marked out of big games by top opposition and because our play was built around him we’d have no other options. Aguero scores vs everyone, and doesn’t need a system built around him.
 

momo83

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Henry:
What often goes unnoticed /unmentioned about Henry and Wenger is that in a way Henry was like the predecessor to Messi and Ronaldo. He was the first winger that got moved to a central position and ended up delivering crazy goal stats, scoring all types of goals. While his peak was not as long as those two, or Aguero I do wonder if not for him would SAF have imagined Ronaldo being a goal machine.

Aguero.
Greatest out and out number 9 in the EPL. His record vs top 6 clubs speaks for itself. Real wanted him but he’s always stayed with City despite family living in Madrid.
 

harms

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There is no disrespect at all. He was great but Aguero is a different level. Not much longevity is a big thing when considering ones career.

His 02/03 season was incredible 40+ goals in all comps and the season before really good but that aside he was a 2 in 3 kind of striker for his entire career (in the big leagues). You can't discount 3/4 of a career to judge how good a players career was...
Well, you can also look at their CL record, where Ruud has 56 goals and Aguero has 39. And Aguero played for better teams most of the time. Agüero is better if we’re talking about PL, but overall they’re quite comparable.
 

Hughes35

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Henry for me. Aguero is incredible and for longevity he may be slightly ahead.

For pure peak, Henry is second behind only CR7