Alabama outlaws abortion

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
50,309
Location
Birmingham
I've mentioned it often on the Cafe. My sister schools in Auburn. She has a low opinion of the state. Let me just leave it like that.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,856
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
I've always struggled with the issue of abortion. Whilst I land on the side of a woman's right to choose, I think it is an extremely delicate moral and ethical issue.

I do believe life begins at the point of conception, and I'm all for that life being protected as much as possible. However I do think ultimately the woman has a right to choose what happens to their body, and should be able to terminate said pregnancy in a safe way if that is what they desire. The issue with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop it, it merely drives women underground to extremely dangerous forms of abortion.

What I don't think is helpful is someone who happens to be pro-life being accused of some form of moral bankruptcy. There are legitimate reasons as to why somebody may be pro-life, and not all of them centre around religious lines either. As I said I think it's a delicate moral and ethical issue.
 

Swarm

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,084
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
My wife has looked me in the eye and told me that she could never abort. I didn't play 21 scenarios with her, but she stressed the "never". Before giving birth to our children, she also made me swear to prioritise them if a decision had to be made any point. Thankfully it never came to that.
I think that is a point where it might be worth to consider the circumstances of your wife and someone else in the position that they might want an abortion. There are a few circumstances that may have to be considered and you have already explained your position on some of them.

- Incest/Rape: Both you and your wife seem to advocate that this is not a reason to abort and I believe you that she would not have an abortion in that circumstance either. I would still say that she probably can't really fathom being in that position but we will go with it.
- Wealth/Means: I assume that you, your wife and your kids don't have extremely pressing monetary issues and you form a proper family and I guess there is a functioning social system surrounding you. That of course makes it a lot easier to endure the hardships that carrying a child to term and supporting it with food/healthcare/time as is necessary. You already explained that you advocate the state taking more responsibility here but I would still say it is a lot easier for your wife to claim she would not abort since she is not struggling with any of these respects (I am assuming)
- Age/Maturity: I think this might be the most important part. If my girlfriend had gotten pregnant without us planning it in recent years we would not have aborted it. Because we feel like we would be up to the task and could deal with the situation. What if you have a 13 year old rape victim? Do you expect her to say "I would never abort"? I think that is a situation that is simply not covered by your wife or sister saying she just couldn't do it.
 

Florida Man

Cartoon expert and crap superhero
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13,862
Location
Florida, man
My sister is pro-life. And she's grateful that my wife is pro-life too, or her niece may not have been given a chance to live. Would you like to come mansplain feminism to them?
Was it her choice to have the baby or not?

Would you like to mansplain feminism to all women who have a different opinion than you, a male, about how they should take care of their bodies?
 

Swarm

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,084
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
Like modern Mississippi next door? Hah...

To get to a less backwater state you'd have to travel halfway across a very large country. They aim to make it all but impossible for anyone (except the well-off) .
Actually one of the most devious aspects of this is the rule in a lot of states that you have to wait a 72 hour period after your first consultation at an abortion clinic before actually going through with the procedure. This puts a significantly larger financial burden on the people seeking abortions and of course as is kind of the point of all of this, it disproportionately affects the poor/vulnerable.
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,028
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
I've always struggled with the issue of abortion. Whilst I land on the side of a woman's right to choose, I think it is an extremely delicate moral and ethical issue.

I do believe life begins at the point of conception, and I'm all for that life being protected as much as possible. However I do think ultimately the woman has a right to choose what happens to their body, and should be able to terminate said pregnancy in a safe way if that is what they desire. The issue with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop it, it merely drives women underground to extremely dangerous forms of abortion.

What I don't think is helpful is someone who happens to be pro-life being accused of some form of moral bankruptcy. There are legitimate reasons as to why somebody may be pro-life, and not all of them centre around religious lines either. As I said I think it's a delicate moral and ethical issue.
Which is why I think all male babies should be given vasectomies so that pregnancies only occur as deliberate acts
 

Florida Man

Cartoon expert and crap superhero
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13,862
Location
Florida, man
If abortion is murder, then masturbation is genocide. Menstrual periods must he murder too. Man, pro life standpoints really suck. We have real problems in this world and these folks think they have some moral authority to tell women what to do. Nevermind that we humans have a big enough environmental impact as it is and having more children only increases that impact. It’s really selfish delusion if you think about it.
 

Silva

Full Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
30,756
Location
Smoke crack like Isaac Asimov
There's no point where life begins. It's a long series of growth that starts with the fertilisation of the egg. The sperm and egg are individually alive, as are sunflower seeds. The fertilised egg is as alive as a sporing algae, and who gives a shit about sporing algae. The foetus has a ton of stages, a lot of which are just a mushy collection of undeveloped organs and muscles. Consciousness and grey matter don't develop until the third trimester. Up until that point the foetus is wholly braindead. There's no god that whips down to the womb and gives the foetus a soul at any point. There's no god that gives it a soul later either. It's just a biological process where the foetus slowly grows into a human if the mothers womb is healthy enough. There's no magic or god or soul to it.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,077
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Such compassion. :lol:

I assume you don't have a sister? I'd love you to tell her that and see her response if you did.
For my experience the most hardcore anti-choice people are religious women.

I know the left likes the meme of "men telling women what to do with their body" but I would bet dollars to donuts that every single one of those Alabama lawmakers have wives/female family that are even more hardcore anti-choice than they are.

The most horrific sociopathic comments I have heard from anti-choice people has been from religious women (and their husbands would kind of just go along with it). I personally have never met a man as vicious as the religious women who are anti-choice.
 

Carolina Red

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
36,294
Location
South Carolina
There's no point where life begins. It's a long series of growth that starts with the fertilisation of the egg. The sperm and egg are individually alive, as are sunflower seeds. The fertilised egg is as alive as a sporing algae, and who gives a shit about sporing algae. The foetus has a ton of stages, a lot of which are just a mushy collection of undeveloped organs and muscles. Consciousness and grey matter don't develop until the third trimester. Up until that point the foetus is wholly braindead. There's no god that whips down to the womb and gives the foetus a soul at any point. There's no god that gives it a soul later either. It's just a biological process where the foetus slowly grows into a human if the mothers womb is healthy enough. There's no magic or god or soul to it.
On point.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,077
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
To get very pedantic I think its fair to say 'life' certainly begins at conception.

but the key for me is that 'human life' (which by definition needs human consciousness) cannot begin until the nervous system is sufficiently complex enough to support human consciousness (3rd trimester basically).
 

Florida Man

Cartoon expert and crap superhero
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13,862
Location
Florida, man
For my experience the most hardcore anti-choice people are religious women.

I know the left likes the meme of "men telling women what to do with their body" but I would bet dollars to donuts that every single one of those Alabama lawmakers have wives/female family that are even more hardcore anti-choice than they are.

The most horrific sociopathic comments I have heard from anti-choice people has been from religious women (and their husbands would kind of just go along with it). I personally have never met a man as vicious as the religious women who are anti-choice.
Maybe so but it’s the men who are making the laws. Imagine if only women had a say on abortion legislation. Even with all the nutcases as you say, I’m certain that no anti abortion laws would pass.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,077
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Maybe so but it’s the men who are making the laws. Imagine if only women had a say on abortion legislation. Even with all the nutcases as you say, I’m certain that no anti abortion laws would pass.
If only men had a say on abortion I think the result would be same as only women nationwide.

I just don't think the problem is "men", the problem is crazy conservative religious values. If you had 22 women of same social class from Alabama I bet they would still vote for this law.
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,028
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
For my experience the most hardcore anti-choice people are religious women.

I know the left likes the meme of "men telling women what to do with their body" but I would bet dollars to donuts that every single one of those Alabama lawmakers have wives/female family that are even more hardcore anti-choice than they are.

The most horrific sociopathic comments I have heard from anti-choice people has been from religious women (and their husbands would kind of just go along with it). I personally have never met a man as vicious as the religious women who are anti-choice.
Which is why I laugh at comments that say that men need to be absent from this debate. Watch any "March for Life", majority of the participants are women.

Consciousness and grey matter don't develop until the third trimester. Up until that point the foetus is wholly braindead.
That development happens earlier in the second trimester. The third trimester cutoff was not about consciousness, it was about viability (at the time of Roe). Technology and medical advances have pushed the viability point back into the second trimester as well.
 

Carolina Red

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
36,294
Location
South Carolina
To get very pedantic I think its fair to say 'life' certainly begins at conception.

but the key for me is that 'human life' (which by definition needs human consciousness) cannot begin until the nervous system is sufficiently complex enough to support human consciousness (3rd trimester basically).
That's what I'm assuming a discussion about abortion is focusing on... "human life".

And I agree, brain development to the point of consciousness is key.
 

Silva

Full Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
30,756
Location
Smoke crack like Isaac Asimov
That development happens earlier in the second trimester. The third trimester cutoff was not about consciousness, it was about viability (at the time of Roe). Technology and medical advances have pushed the viability point back into the second trimester as well.
That's brain growth, grey matter is on the border of the second/third which I'm counting as third because it's less wordy
 

Swarm

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,084
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
I've always struggled with the issue of abortion. Whilst I land on the side of a woman's right to choose, I think it is an extremely delicate moral and ethical issue.

I do believe life begins at the point of conception, and I'm all for that life being protected as much as possible. However I do think ultimately the woman has a right to choose what happens to their body, and should be able to terminate said pregnancy in a safe way if that is what they desire. The issue with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop it, it merely drives women underground to extremely dangerous forms of abortion.

What I don't think is helpful is someone who happens to be pro-life being accused of some form of moral bankruptcy. There are legitimate reasons as to why somebody may be pro-life, and not all of them centre around religious lines either. As I said I think it's a delicate moral and ethical issue.
I do like your approach to this. Even if it is not very novel it is usually not the one being proclaimed the loudest. I find myself sometimes struggling with your statement that I bolded. It is mostly just frustration if people are difficult to argue with. Generally I agree that we should be protecting life as much as possible. One of the most difficult aspects to this is weighing the "worth" of the childs/fetus' life versus that of the mother. The pro-life side often disregards the mother entirely since she is alive already after all an her dying is practically the only reason why an abortion may be performed. Psychological damage to the mother, maybe the father and the people around them, the issues the child may take from that, are not taken into account at all. All of these aspects are of course amplified to the extreme for rape or incest cases.
So this is where I would think one of the main arguments lies: Who can gauge the impact of this decision, who knows most about how this will affect their life and the people around them? The mother, the father and their families/friends who ideally help them in their decision making if they are being involved by the people concerned. And this is at the core of the argument, these people who may know best (maybe they don't but that is life) are entirely ignored and the decision is made over their heads.
 

Florida Man

Cartoon expert and crap superhero
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
13,862
Location
Florida, man
If only men had a say on abortion I think the result would be same as only women nationwide.

I just don't think the problem is "men", the problem is crazy conservative religious values. If you had 22 women of same social class from Alabama I bet they would still vote for this law.
If you look at the women who voted, it shows a different conclusion.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,348
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
it's around the same time so it might just be a coincidence, didn't mean to imply otherwise
How do they know it’s around the same time? How do they know when a foetus becomes conscious?

I’m being pedantic here and I’m pro choice anyway. Just find it very difficult to argue a case for abortion that doesn’t involve terminating unborn human beings. No idea what the science says here. I suspect it’s vague.

My personal opinion is that true consciousness isn’t present before birth. But late stage terminations make me very queasy, morally.
 

Silva

Full Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
30,756
Location
Smoke crack like Isaac Asimov
How do they know it’s around the same time? How do they know when a foetus becomes conscious?

I’m being pedantic here and I’m pro choice anyway. Just find it very difficult to argue a case for abortion that doesn’t involve terminating unborn human beings. No idea what the science says here. I suspect it’s vague.

My personal opinion is that true consciousness isn’t present before birth. But late stage terminations make me very queasy, morally.
it basically boils down to period where brain is growing but doing nothing - period where the brain starts doing things that might be consciousness but we don't know yet because no ones worked it out
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,375
Location
The Zone
All middle-aged white men. That demographic is killing us at the ballot box.
White women as well.


Basically there's a lot of middle/upper class white shit heads in the United States.
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,077
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
If you look at the women who voted, it shows a different conclusion.
There were only 3 and they were Democrats I believ.

I'm saying if you replaced those 22 white men with their wives/sisters I bet the vote would have been exactly the same.
 

Redlambs

Creator of the Caftards comics
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
42,176
Location
Officially the best poker player on RAWK.
I've always struggled with the issue of abortion. Whilst I land on the side of a woman's right to choose, I think it is an extremely delicate moral and ethical issue.

I do believe life begins at the point of conception, and I'm all for that life being protected as much as possible. However I do think ultimately the woman has a right to choose what happens to their body, and should be able to terminate said pregnancy in a safe way if that is what they desire. The issue with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop it, it merely drives women underground to extremely dangerous forms of abortion.

What I don't think is helpful is someone who happens to be pro-life being accused of some form of moral bankruptcy. There are legitimate reasons as to why somebody may be pro-life, and not all of them centre around religious lines either. As I said I think it's a delicate moral and ethical issue.
This is the problem with a lot of things going on with the world today, and perhaps forever. People are way to eager to go at the exact opposite of their own opinion rather than just listen and try to understand where others are coming from.

Things like trump, brexit and indeed this happen because so many are willing to fall into the trap of believing everything outside of their little bubble is wrong.
 

shamans

Thinks you can get an STD from flirting.
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
18,226
Location
Constantly at the STD clinic.
I am pro life but believe abortion should be legal. Does that make me pro life? I just want to be against something personally without make it ILLEGAL. I mean after certain amount of weeks it shouldn't be allowed but early in the pregnancy should be a choice imo.

Anyway this law is stupid.
 

nimic

something nice
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
31,038
Location
And I'm all out of bubblegum.
I am pro life but believe abortion should be legal. Does that make me pro life? I just want to be against something personally without make it ILLEGAL. I mean after certain amount of weeks it shouldn't be allowed but early in the pregnancy should be a choice imo.

Anyway this law is stupid.
You're not pro life, you're pro choice.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
I don't think it should be a choice if the baby is like what 6 months in though.
The vast, vast majority of people who are pro-choice believe in a time limit too, usually somewhere between 12 and 24 weeks. You can disagree on where the cut off point should be while still being pro-choice.

For example in Ireland you can have an abortion up until 12 weeks and after that only if there is a serious risk to the mother's life/health (as certified by two doctors, one an obstetrician).
 

Infra-red

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
13,387
Location
left wing
I don't think it should be a choice if the baby is like what 6 months in though.
In terms of the UK, the statistics show that approximately 90% of all abortions carried out, take place during the first 12 weeks of gestation (and approximately 70% during the first 8 weeks).
 

Verminator

Full Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
8,061
Location
N3404 The Island of Manchester United
I'm definitely pro-choice. I don't think anybody but the mother should have any input here.

Those arguing against that seem to completely ignore that, in virtually every case, the mother has determined that the best interest of the child, is that it shouldn't be born. In many cases, she will have agonized, and tried to find a scenario that would work, without termination.

In these arguments, it often seems that the decision is trivialised, and these women are recreationally aborting. They aren't.
This amplifies the arrogance of outsider-interference. It really is nothing to do with you or anyone else.
 

Dr. Dwayne

Self proclaimed tagline king.
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
97,247
Location
Nearer my Cas, to thee
I'm definitely pro-choice. I don't think anybody but the mother should have any input here.

Those arguing against that seem to completely ignore that, in virtually every case, the mother has determined that the best interest of the child, is that it shouldn't be born. In many cases, she will have agonized, and tried to find a scenario that would work, without termination.

In these arguments, it often seems that the decision is trivialised, and these women are recreationally aborting. They aren't.
This amplifies the arrogance of outsider-interference. It really is nothing to do with you or anyone else.
#mypussyisnoneofyourbusiness
 

2 man midfield

Last Man Standing finalist 2021/22
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
45,666
Location
?
I've always struggled with the issue of abortion. Whilst I land on the side of a woman's right to choose, I think it is an extremely delicate moral and ethical issue.

I do believe life begins at the point of conception, and I'm all for that life being protected as much as possible. However I do think ultimately the woman has a right to choose what happens to their body, and should be able to terminate said pregnancy in a safe way if that is what they desire. The issue with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop it, it merely drives women underground to extremely dangerous forms of abortion.

What I don't think is helpful is someone who happens to be pro-life being accused of some form of moral bankruptcy. There are legitimate reasons as to why somebody may be pro-life, and not all of them centre around religious lines either. As I said I think it's a delicate moral and ethical issue.
Spot on. Totally agree.
 

Swarm

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,084
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
You're not pro life, you're pro choice.
I think the terminology can be a bit weird. I am sure pretty much everyone is "pro-life" per definition. Being pro-choice does not make anyone anti-life, that is ridiculous. Basically being pro-choice does not mean you don't have the interest of an unborn cell conglomerate at heart to some extent.