Issue is, he shouldn't be starting, because he's not good enough. Can we afford to buy someone better than him to rotate him with? Would he even be happy with that?
17
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 56
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 10
- Yellow cards
- 5
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Did you not see his cross that fell to Bruno that Dorgu intercepted and took a shot instead?
Garnacho is becoming a one of the worlds best at cut back crosses so for you to say that he is rubbish at crossing shows how one sided you are.
You really do have something up against this lad. Everytime he does well your no where to be seen or your posts turns to sentences, a game where he misses a chance arguably created 75% from his own movement - he gets an absolute essay about how he is rubbish at everything at the age of 20.
The fact is Garnacho gets 1 or 2 clear cut chances a game. He misses alot of these chances but finishing ability is one of the easiest things to improve especially from the age of 20. Even alot of strikers dont hit consistency until there 27 so why do you think Garnacho's wouldn't improve his finishing much?
He is very frustrating not because he doesn't impose himself on the match like Hojlund, he is frustrating because he creates alot of chances largely due to his own positioning and making runs that fool defenders time and time again. He then has a poor finish or a poor pass but even his possession retention has improved dramatically over the last 3-4 months.
He doesn't finish some of these chances created by his own movement at 20 and people don't see that Garnacho was one of the main reason the chance was created in the first place.
Anyway, Amorim said something I wanted to hear for along time in his post match interview.
He listed some players who didn't exactly fit his system - but he said that this allowed us to play different tactics by using different players that offers us different things in different areas of the pitch. Garnacho was one of them & his directness.
Even I want Cherki or whoever at the club, but my lord whenever we need it Cherki wouldn't be beating the offside trap with a fast unreadable run that leads to a goal creating chance.
These players all have weaknesses and strengths & Garnacho has shown he has enough strengths to let him develop at 20. People said he regressed this season because his numbers wasn't as good as last season, now its better than last seasons everyone is finding reasons to why these statistics are false aswell.
Also you mention that his goals and assists vs lower league teams but you have forgot his performances/assists/pre assists against Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle - why are you doing this? Why are you saying his stats are shit against because its against the lower teams when he is doing it against the better teams as well.
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Unlucky last night, he wasn't great but he's starting every single game with no rest at all. He's a good player and works very hard for the team. I think he's made genuine improvements this season with his crossing and cutbacks.
We need more depth and quality, I definitely think he's good enough to play for us. Not yet as the main man in the attack but he still has potential to improve.
We need more depth and quality, I definitely think he's good enough to play for us. Not yet as the main man in the attack but he still has potential to improve.
You forgot to bold any bit of my post, so I assume that means you agree entirely?
Spurs would absolutely care if it's Amad or Garnacho. It won't change their approach, but they'll be much more confident if our main danger is our worst (and one of the league's worst) finisher, who's one of the worst players in the league for dribbling past players. He'll be easy pickings for them and they'll know it. Compare that with Amad who's a much better finisher, much better at dribbling, much better at holding on to the ball and bringing teammates into the game, it's night and day.
While it won't change their approach, the confidence they'll gain (and our players will lose) knowing we're completely toothless is huge, we've seen it against Lyon and Bilbao recently just how much belief teams get against us when he inevitably misses huge chances. We've even seen it against Spurs already this season.
Needs finishing training. Needs to be more efficient and ruthless. He gets that part of the game down, we'd be a lot harder to beat.
Until then, he'll be a big reason why teams can play with little pressure and have a go at us.
Until then, he'll be a big reason why teams can play with little pressure and have a go at us.
If it's true that we're getting Cunha then Garnacho is going to have to go up a couple of levels at least to regain his starting place next season. We'll have better options than him for the 10 roles. I personally feel like he won't be happy if he finds himself on the bench a lot next season. And for the money we could get for him, I'd happily see him go, knowing that we'll be upgrading him in Cunha and can reinvest the money elsewhere.
There's seeing what you want to see, and then there's this post.
Let's be clear, he's one of the worst players in our squad at finding a teammate with crosses in the PL, only above players who haven't had a successful cross yet, the likes of Amass and Maguire. His crossing completion rate is 12%, which puts him well into the bottom half of PL players. And you call him one of the best in the world?
I'd also suggest that your accusation of my being one sided is projection, the language you use to defend him along with utter falsehoods in your post like the above make it clear. To address a few more - Garnacho doesn't create a lot of chances, he's around 8th in our squad for chances created per 90 in the PL. He gets on the end of a lot, I've always agreed he's good at that, but the problem is that he almost never does anything with them. You stated he doesn't finish "some" of them. which is a ridiculous understatement, he's our worst player for big chances missed in the PL. He's actually 12th worst for missing them in the entire league. Going by the official PL numbers, he's missed almost a quarter of all the big chances the club has created in the PL. His wastefulness in attack is absolutely killing us. Another falsehood is that his possession retention has improved dramatically. He's in the bottom 6% in the league for being dispossessed. It's pure imagination.
As for his "directness", I agree with with you that he's very direct. In handing the ball over to the opposition. Either through his terrible finishing, as one of the worst in the league, his terrible dribbling, also one of the worst in the league, or his often being dispossessed, again one of the worst in the league.
To answer your question about why his finishing won't improve much, it's because it comes from a combination of other issues - he's physically outmatched by most players, so doesn't have the acceleration or strength to make space for himself, he's technically deficient, often making things more difficult for himself with poor touches or the ball getting stuck under his feet, and he plays with his head down so much he only has a vague idea of where the goal is and where his teammates are. He's nowhere near good enough, and never will be. Just look at someone like Amad as a comparison, he's better at everything, and more effective. That's the kind of standard we need to be aiming for.
It's a shame, as I think he's a lovely guy, and a good young professional. I think he could have a decent career at a lower level or in less physical leagues. But he's simply not good enough the top level.
Given the amount of football there is over a season, think he'd be fine just competing with Amad with Cunha and Mount competing for the other side 10. You need a direct runner as one of the 10s, and that spot would suit him right now where he's either subbing on or starting every game. It is a drop in play time, but he's been over played so I think we can manage it ok.
I initially quoted the entire post you made, and then bolded the bit I wanted to specifically respond to, then decided to remove everything aside from the bit I wanted to respond to and then didn't adjust my comment.You forgot to bold any bit of my post, so I assume that means you agree entirely?
Spurs would absolutely care if it's Amad or Garnacho. It won't change their approach, but they'll be much more confident if our main danger is our worst (and one of the league's worst) finisher, who's one of the worst players in the league for dribbling past players. He'll be easy pickings for them and they'll know it. Compare that with Amad who's a much better finisher, much better at dribbling, much better at holding on to the ball and bringing teammates into the game, it's night and day.
While it won't change their approach, the confidence they'll gain (and our players will lose) knowing we're completely toothless is huge, we've seen it against Lyon and Bilbao recently just how much belief teams get against us when he inevitably misses huge chances. We've even seen it against Spurs already this season.
I do not think we are far apart in our thinking, yes, Amad is clearly the better option in the 10, and yes, Spurs most likely will not change their approach depending on who starts from Amad & Garna.
But I agree with the bolded bit (did right this time
), if Amad starts and he causes them issues with his quality, Spurs players will have to then worry about Amad and might not be too aggressive in their pressing and could be caught in 2 minds (do I jump and press or stay on Amad) which could give us a chance, rather than Garna who might not be someone an oppo player would fear too much as long as he is not allowed to run in behind.Yes there is flaws in game, the kid is only 20, but he'll develop and improve. Would he have already have played 140 times for Manchester United if we were stronger? Obviously not, but I'm confident that he's coachable and can improve finishing and decision making. People writing him off are crazy, when Amad was Garnachos age he was on loan at Sunderland.
I initially quoted the entire post you made, and then bolded the bit I wanted to specifically respond to, then decided to remove everything aside from the bit I wanted to respond to and then didn't adjust my comment.
I do not think we are far apart in our thinking, yes, Amad is clearly the better option in the 10, and yes, Spurs most likely will not change their approach depending on who starts from Amad & Garna.
But I agree with the bolded bit (did right this time
You made me worry about my eyesight, I triple checked the post to find a bolded bit!
We seem to be in rough agreement, personally I think Amad starting over Garnacho is huge for determining our chances of winning, he's just so much better.
So basically if we take away some of the goals that Garnacho has scored and belittle the assists he has then your arguement stands up? I think I have that correct?
Shall we take away Amads hat trick against Southampton for example because they have been woeful all season? That argument really doesn't wash.
The simple fact is Garnacho has been our most dangerous player alongside Bruno all season.
Could he improve his finishing? Undoubtedly, but he's just turned 20, he has time and development on his side.
His tenacity, drive, ambition, work rate and threat are unquestionably good, and if he were up for sale at the end of the season there would be heaps of top teams after him.
He's one hell of a player, and United would be a whole lot worse this season without him.
my bad, in your original post (5092 in this thread), I quoted the whole thing then bolded the part I wanted to respond to, as you can see below
Then I decided to remove your entire post and kept the bolded part without bolding it, just like below, and then did not adjust my comment when I said "Disagree with bolded bit"
apologies for the confusion caused but we are in agreement, Amad must start in the final as he is our best attacking player alongside Bruno
That's also not his fault, he's been overused by all managers really, so I can understand why he would feel a bit miffed being bumped down the list. I think the money we could get for him would open up a lot of possibilities for investment and impovement as a squad. I don't think he'll have as big as an impact next season than buying players that will fit the system better.
As you say, Cunha will be an upgrade and he could fund a proper CM signing and potentially others, depending on what we get. I also think he'll have a better career out of it too. Look how Scott is doing, Antony for fecks sake! He was always miles better than them.
Criminal miss but I think the fact he gets so many chances in a match is a positive as it shows he's doing something right, one day you'd hope he'll start putting those chances away more and more frequently.
I'm just suggesting we compare Premier League records, as Garnacho's is heavily inflated by League Cup fixtures against laughably bad opposition. In the Premier League, Amad scores or assists over twice as regularly as Garnacho, the gulf in class and ability between them is gargantuan.
The bit in bold is nonsense, you've stated an utter falsehood and called it a simple fact. Once again you're assigning to Garnacho what is actually true of Amad. Garnacho isn't a dangerous player, at least not for our opposition. He's barely in our top 10 for creating chances, and he wastes the vast majority of chances that are created for him. Getting into good positions and wasting them isn't dangerous.
I agree with you regarding his tenacity, drive, ambition, and work rate, but he's so unthreatening. Threat has to mean threatening to to score or create goals, right? How can he provide that when he's objectively poor at shooting, crossing, dribbling, and passing?
Your entire analysis of him appears to just be vibes. Can you provide any evidence to back up your claims about him? How do you quantify the "danger" and "threat" that you claim he provides so much of?
As for the heaps of top teams being after him, I hope that's true, it's very unlikely though, as top teams have data analysis departments, and so they'll be aware just how bad he is at so many facets of the game.
Garnacho has the highest expected goals of any United player this season, far far higher than Amad,
He has more goals, has more assists over all than Amad, admittedly he's played more games, but he has been ok the pitch more than Amad because he's less injury prone, and is then inherently our most dangerous player when on the pitch, he has scored 0.1 less of a goal per 90 mins than Amad for example....that's splitting hairs.
You can try and discount the goals Garnacho scores by claiming it's against Barnsley or a poor team, but he's still scored them. Again, do we discount Amads hat trick against Southampton (nearly half his league goals in one game) because it was against the joint worst performing premier league team ever (potentially)? (No being the answer to that, in case you were wondering).
He's obviously not poor at crossing, passing or dribbling, otherwise he wouldn't be an Argentina international player.
This trying to insinuate that certain players are poor at certain things is lazy, and is the same reason lots on here didn't rate McTominay despite his many positives that he brought to the team, as he is now showing elsewhere.
In the premier league, it's 0.34 goal involvements per 90 vs 0.71 goal involvements per 90. That isn't splitting hairs, it's over double, that's lightyears apart.
As for the rest of it, no evidence at all, as expected. 66 competitive minutes in total for Argentina doesn't hold any water compared his many minutes in the league, that demonstrate he's objectively one of our worst crossers, and among the worst dribblers in the league.
I'm not trying to insinuate that he's poor, I'm stating directly that he is, and using an array of statistics to back it up. What's really lazy is your defence of him, that's entirely reliant on vibes and imaginary danger.
Fecking hell... I mean, obviously watching football is a bit subjective, but thats really really realllllly pushing it
You actively stated he was poor at crossing, dribbling and passing!!!
I'm talking assists and goals, goal involvement a could be a pass within a move three phases beforehand, a very sketchy and misleading stat. But that's fine if you need it to back up your point.
It's also fine, you don't like him or rate him, but he has been our biggest threat, that is unquestionable.
I did actively state that, because it's true.
Goal involvement refers to goals and assists together. So not at all misleading, you just weren't aware of what it means.
You keep saying he's our biggest threat, but you've so far been unable to quantify what that actually means. If you mean he's the biggest threat to us winning matches, you might be on to something.
So in which case my stats are correct.
But that's fine, am sure you'll disregard them to suit your own agenda, because goal against Barnsley or Leicester don't count...
I thought this was redcafe but turns out I’ve accidentally walked into a comedy club.
The biggest threat to fans watching in the stands maybe.
As for threats to the opposition goal, Bruno and Amad have both been statistically bigger threats.
If you could pull up the real-life equivalent of his FM stats on some editor, you'd be impressed by certain attributes. Dribbling, Technique, Aggression, Determination, Flair, Movement, Work Rate, Pace, Acceleration, Agility. All of them would be 15+ out of 20. His Crossing must have entered that bracket at the end of this season as well.
Now if we could only dial up his Passing and Finishing from 10 to say 14/20, and his Decisions from 6 to say 12/20 - we'd have a great player on our hands. Given his age, that's not unreasonable. But he simply doesn't have those three key attributes needed for someone in his position of responsibility - he's not ready to be a main attacking threat at a PL club of our pressure and ambitions.
There's no point in anything you get right when it results in you repeatedly fecking up the finishing or the final decision over and over again. We get very few opportunities at the top - we cannot afford to field a string of players who keep spurning chances more often than not. Statistically, his 20+ G/A season is not bad at all - shows signs of great promise. But we need more consistent conversion of chances from our starters which would make Garnacho invaluable as the backup/rotation option to come off the bench.
Now if we could only dial up his Passing and Finishing from 10 to say 14/20, and his Decisions from 6 to say 12/20 - we'd have a great player on our hands. Given his age, that's not unreasonable. But he simply doesn't have those three key attributes needed for someone in his position of responsibility - he's not ready to be a main attacking threat at a PL club of our pressure and ambitions.
There's no point in anything you get right when it results in you repeatedly fecking up the finishing or the final decision over and over again. We get very few opportunities at the top - we cannot afford to field a string of players who keep spurning chances more often than not. Statistically, his 20+ G/A season is not bad at all - shows signs of great promise. But we need more consistent conversion of chances from our starters which would make Garnacho invaluable as the backup/rotation option to come off the bench.
Needs to finish his chances
What drugs are you on?
I remember when Welbeck was getting into all those excellent situations thanks to his excellent movements. Garnacho is similar, working hard as well. Just hope the finishing part will click for him sooner than for Welbs who was also very injury prone for a long time.
He’s a young player who has been playing a lot more consistently than he should have to this point. Ideally he comes on as an impact sub against tired legs and only starts when it’s really clicking for him. Never mind the tactical changes he has had to adjust to. All things considered he has done very well for us this season.
Lay off the lad.
Lay off the lad.
Which part of that post tripped you over?
He was rightly trying to run down the clock in a game where it felt we were hanging on
Yep. He has already done his fair share. Without Garnacho we lose so many things - the counter attacking threat becomes non existent, there's very little ball carrying between Bruno, Mount, Mainoo, Zirkzee etc., he puts in a shift.
Cunha is better right now but I'd back Garnacho to eventually displace him from the team.
The amount of unhinged hypotheticals and imaginary scenarios around Garna get weirder every day. He isn't coming close to Cunha's numbers in the prem anytime soon. He'll eventually be shifted back to the bench and then moved on once the club signs more technical players.
His xG and ball carrying is already there. Garna underperforming his xG and Cunha over performing provides the Delta.
21g+a in 55 so far. Not bad for output in such a dysfunctional side.
Yeah mad to expect a 20 year old to improve.
Has to be a part of our long term future.
If it's true that Garnacho does all of these things then why do you think it doesn't show up in his stats?
He's bottom 20% for passes into penalty area and crosses into penalty area. Bottom 10% for passes into final 3rd, progressive passes and through balls.
His creative numbers are objectively garbage.
Judging performance based on opponent is a fairly common sense and uncontroversial method of assessing a players ability, or do you think someone scoring 20 premier league goals is the same as scoring 20 in the championship? No ones picking on Garnacho here, these methods are used universally.
You can gladly take away Amad's hattrick vs Southampton and what you'll see is he massively out performs Garnacho is almost every single area. The analytics aren't just measuring goals they measure just about every aspect of the game. Dribbling/through balls/chances created/assists and I could go on and on.
Here's Amad vs Garnacho this season: https://ibb.co/ynv4pKW2
Here's Garnacho this season vs Antony in his only full season with us: https://ibb.co/vxw1Sdbg
Here's Garnacho vs Antony this season: https://ibb.co/tTrsdDcR
It's possible Garnacho could develop into a player that's very good but his current performance level is close to Daniel James when he was here: https://ibb.co/4g0xGfC3
250m and full of holes.
Wow, there’s daft posts…. And then there’s this.
Looks like decent squad option.
No reason to sell now, but I don't see top end potential either.
No reason to sell now, but I don't see top end potential either.