All Time Great Managers Draft

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.


All Time Great Managers Draft

Can't think of any inspiring opening lines, so here's the rules:

Manager pick rules
Every participant sends a ranked list of four manager choices to me & Physiocrat via PM. Since I'll play as well, I'll send my list first. (Physiocrat will help by overseeing the process.)

Every unchallenged first choice will be assigned to the respective drafter. If two or more drafters make the same first choice, this manager will be assigned to one of them per randomizer.

This procedure continues for choices 2-4, or until everyone has found a manager. In case of participants losing out on all four choices, the list of unavailable managers will be published and each one chooses an unpicked manager. (Picking order determined by randomizer.)

Squad drafting rules
  1. Snake style draft, all time pool.
  2. Every player must have at least one full game online.
  3. 3 seasons career peak rule - each player will be judged on his performance within 3 seasons of the manager's choice. Summer tournaments will be accounted for on either side of the timeframe. The career peak can be a different one for each game.
  4. Players are ineligible if they have played in any competitive senior game or (senior) NT friendly under the chosen manager (= 1 minute on the pitch). Club friendlies and exhibition games don't count. In unclear circumstances, please ask before picking.
  5. Initial squads will be formed of up to 14 players, but managers can opt out after pick 11, 12, or 13.
  6. Managers have 4 hours to make their pick, but get additional 4 hours if they send the pick to another participant and Physiocrat via PM.
  7. No changing of picks. Mistakenly picked ineligible players are removed from the squad at discovery and can be replaced at any time.
  8. To help avoid fielding ineligible players, please make it known if you know a drafter has picked such a player. All matches should be completed within a week of the draw. Even if you can't put together an OP, just send a team sheet and the basic stylistic approach.

Match Rules
  1. Games are played & voted on the usual way, but voters should take the stylistic frame of a manager choice into account. (Further info in the FAQ below.)
  2. Each team has to be in line with the chosen manager's basic approach(es) to football. Participants will use the match OP to outline how their team relates to their manager's philosophy & specific historical team setups. (For further details, see the FAQ below.)
  3. Career peaks have to be included in the formation graphic.
  4. In the case of an ineligible player fielded, that team will automatically forfeit the game. If both teams field an ineligible player, subs will be allowed to create an eligible team. If both managers can create an eligible team, the match will continue as normal. If only one manager can do so, that manager wins by default.
  5. In case of a draw, whoever has the best goalkeeper will win. This will be decided by our all time goalkeeper poll. If both keepers don't feature there, a neutral ad hoc comittee will decide.
  6. In case of a manager duo, one will be the main debater & the co-manager will be allowed three posts per thread to prevent double teaming.
Tactical changes
  1. Each player can make one tactical change per game. The earliest opportunity to do so is 14 hours after the start the of the match.
  2. 2 subs are allowed within that change.
  3. Managers who change their tactics post a new formation graphic & a short sketch of the new tactics.
  4. Managers PM the material to the thread creator, the opposition manager, Physio & me at least 2 hours before it's posted in the thread. If the PM is sent later than 12h in, the change can only take place later as well.
  5. The original formations will be kept in the OP as 1st half, and the new writeup(s) will be announced as 2nd half & linked in the OP.
Anyone voting or changing vote after the tactical change should consider both halves, not just the 2nd.


GOAT restrictions

Perma-blocked:
Pele, Maradona, Messi
One pick for each poster from this list:
Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Maldini, Facchetti
Rijkaard, Matthäus
Di Stefano, Platini
Cruyff, Puskas, Zico, Gullit, Best, Garrincha, C. Ronaldo, Eusebio
Fenomeno, Müller, Van Basten

Reinforcements
tba with Coropa League on the cards
 
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Synco

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Draft concept FAQ
Other questions or suggestions for changes can be discussed in this thread.

Are only "all time great" managers available?
Any manager is available. If you want to recreate Tony Pulis' legendary Stoke team with world class players, go ahead.

Do I have to stick with one setup?
No. All historical setups of a manager are available - even if they are based on different philosophies -, and you can alternate between them. As SAF, you can play Aberdeen's giant killers in round 1, and the 2008 United team in round 2. There are a few great trolling setups for certain managers, which won't be named here (please don't either). We'll have 14 player squads to make such changes possible.

Do teams have to be perfect replicas from a historical setup?
No. The manager's style is more like an overarching theme, and there's a certain freedom within that frame. For example, hybrid setups from a manager's different teams are perfectly possible. But you should be able to provide references (lineups, match reports, interview quotes, video footage, etc.) to substantiate your choices.

Do player roles/types have to be replicated 1:1?
Same as above: A player can be upgraded and his role changed at will, as long as you can argue that it improves the setup and fits the manager's style. Even if a historical setup features a limited defensive RB and you put Cafu there instead.

How are matches voted on?
Games are played and voted on the normal way, but voters should consider two aspects:

1. Are both teams faithful to their manager's style, as laid out in the match OPs?
2. Usual draft match evaluation: tactical matchup, personnel, synergies, etc.

In case of a gross departure from a manager's style, that team should be considered dysfunctional and voted against in principle. If it's just certain tactical/player choices that wouldn't work in your eyes, argue that in the match thread.
 
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Joga Bonito

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An interesting premise. Will be following it keenly.

Do player roles/types have to be replicated 1:1?
Same as above: A player can be upgraded and his role changed at will, as long as you can argue that it improves the setup and fits the manager's style. Even if a historical setup features a limited defensive RB and you put Cafu there instead.
Unsure about this rule though, as it sort of goes against the spirit of the draft imo and we could start seeing GOAT-fests as opposed to good tactical fits.
 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Unsure about this rule though, as it sort of goes against the spirit of the draft imo and we could start seeing GOAT-fests as opposed to good tactical fits.
The balance between manager theme and an amount of creative freedom is certainly the trickiest part. If there's a danger that everything becomes arbitrary, more restrictive rules on team shape and player selection would be necessary, I agree.

The opposite danger is that we replicate teams in a too robotic fashion. When a historical player's role was in part defined by his limitations, there might be discussions if an all time great replacement is "too good" or "too versatile" for that role. I don't really like that either. I guess these managers would have taken the superior player themselves, if he fitted the playing style. Some historic player's role may be completely unreplicable for his unique qualities, or only in a sort of foul compromise.

The idea so far is that voters are the ones who monitor & control the conceptual authenticity of teams in such cases (last FAQ point).

Would be interested what others think about this.
 

Enigma_87

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Unsure about this rule though, as it sort of goes against the spirit of the draft imo and we could start seeing GOAT-fests as opposed to good tactical fits.
It’s a fine line though. When you choose fergie for example he practiced an adventurous 4-4-2 in his early days and much more pragmatic 4-3-3, 4-4-2 or even 4-5-1 later on. His approach in Europe and in PL was very different too so generally drafters should be allowed some leeway if the strategy isn’t really strict about it.

even Pep had different approach in his Barca days compared to later Bayern and City.
The main thing to me is to follow the philosophy and approach but not make it a rigid 4-4-2 with like for like replacements.

I think the way @Synco has described is as good as it gets. If you go with Pep and counter attacking style it surely won’t fly as well as going with an fox in the box heavy out and out striker compared to a false 9 or complete forward, etc..
 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Just received the first manager list submission. But please hold out until we know who "XYZ" is going to be.

I should be the first (now second) to submit, because I'll handle the manager drafting process. Although I don't think there'll be competition for my manager choice.

Edit: Now third :lol:
 
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Joga Bonito

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The balance between manager theme and an amount of creative freedom is certainly the trickiest part. If there's a danger that everything becomes arbitrary, more restrictive rules on team shape and player selection would be necessary, I agree.

The opposite danger is that we replicate teams in a too robotic fashion.
Fair enough.

When a historical player's role was in part defined by his limitations, there might be discussions if an all time great replacement is "too good" or "too versatile" for that role. I don't really like that either.
I'd have no issues with Cafu replacing Suurbier for instance but if it's di Stefano etc replacing a standard but excellent #10, it's going to be a lot harder to visualize it.

Either way there's bound to be plenty of interesting discussion.

It’s a fine line though. When you choose fergie for example he practiced an adventurous 4-4-2 in his early days and much more pragmatic 4-3-3, 4-4-2 or even 4-5-1 later on. His approach in Europe and in PL was very different too so generally drafters should be allowed some leeway if the strategy isn’t really strict about it.

even Pep had different approach in his Barca days compared to later Bayern and City.
The main thing to me is to follow the philosophy and approach but not make it a rigid 4-4-2 with like for like replacements.

I think the way @Synco has described is as good as it gets. If you go with Pep and counter attacking style it surely won’t fly as well as going with an fox in the box heavy out and out striker compared to a false 9 or complete forward, etc..
It's not so much the style of the side that I have an issue with (reckon most will be faithful to it) but rather upgrading the 'limited piano-carriers' of the side with GOATs with differing playing styles or roles.

Oh no, there's actually a newbie called XYZ getting the PMs now!

Please don't PM him, it was meant as a placeholder :lol:
:lol:
Unwilling minion found, @Šjor Bepo would be proud.
 
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Synco

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I'd have no issues with Cafu replacing Suurbier for instance but if it's di Stefano etc replacing a standard but excellent #10, it's going to be a lot harder to visualize it.
True, that has to be considered. I'd say if the concept allows for a super-dominant #10, AdS would be fine. If he changes the whole fabric of the team (which might well be the case with your 'standard' #10 example) he could be seen as an obstruction. But it is tricky.

Still waiting for more replies on that issue (@Enigma_87's is duly noted).
 

Enigma_87

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It's not so much the style of the side that I have an issue with (reckon most will be faithful to it) but rather upgrading the 'limited piano-carriers' of the side with GOATs with differing playing styles or roles.
Depends on the GOAT really. For example if you replace Park with Best obviously that would be an issue, whilst if you replace it with Gullit probably I'd have no issue with it.

You can still upgrade a more limited player if it's true to his function on the pitch. Expecting a flair player to do a dirty work of a more limited player would probably be called out.
 

crappycraperson

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In but I don't understand the rules. Are we doing the whole PM game to block managers or pick them?
 

Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Roster complete (Edit: no it's not), other interested drafters may still look for assistant manager spots.

Please start sending your manager picks to Physio & me. (Gonna tag missing ones later today & put up a deadline.)
 
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Chesterlestreet

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@Synco

Thanks for the tag, mate - don't have time for this now (and you've got enough managers anyway).

Players are ineligible if they have played in any competitive game or NT friendly under the chosen manager (= 1 minute on the pitch). Club friendlies and exhibition games don't count. In unclear circumstances, please ask before picking.
I take it this means that the idea is to pick players who have NOT played under X (Fergie, Michels, Lattek - Pulis, not least) but who should fit X's style (or one his styles, as it were)?

If so, that's a nice concept - I like it. Should generate some good debates in the match threads.
 

Synco

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I take it this means that the idea is to pick players who have NOT played under X (Fergie, Michels, Lattek - Pulis, not least) but who should fit X's style (or one his styles, as it were)?

If so, that's a nice concept - I like it. Should generate some good debates in the match threads.
Yeah, that's what some of the veterans suggested. Should be fun.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I'd have no issues with Cafu replacing Suurbier for instance but if it's di Stefano etc replacing a standard but excellent #10, it's going to be a lot harder to visualize it.
That's the first thing which springs to mind, really.

"Who wouldn't want THAT in his setup?"

"Pulis wouldn't have turned down old Alfredo - not least since old Alfredo was pretty hard working (in addition to everything else), relatively speaking."

But that very thing could turn into something people might actually scrutinize (and criticize) in the match threads: as in, rather than just taking Messadona Whatshisface as some kind of "God mode" addition to any team, they might look at precisely how he'd function in a more or less "realistic" setting.

In the case of old Alfredo, you may not be able to insert him into any kind of team as a "No 10" and simply sell him as an "Upgrade On Not-Alfredo from Frogie Mc Pep's 2002 vintage" (just because he's - obviously - a better and more complete player). He would - based on what we know about him - possibly render other picks less brilliant, which would then lead to us questioning those picks (you don't need X - or Y or Z - here, he makes no sense since you're fielding old Alfredo) and ultimately to a questioning of the overall balance of the team.

Possibly.

ETA Reminds me of the discussions we've had over the years with regard to "Best Ever XI" from...whatever. If the focus is on how the team would perform as a team, it often enough turns out that you would drop Messadona - because you just can't make him work alongside Donamessi (and the outrageous winger Messarincha) in a "realistic" team that plays according to a certain idea. You actually prefer the (far) less shiny Functionaldo - because of, well, balance.
 
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Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
But that very thing could turn into something people might actually scrutinize (and criticize) in the match threads: as in, rather than just taking Messadona Whatshisface as some kind of "God mode" addition to any team, they might look at precisely how he'd function in a more or less "realistic" setting.
That's exactly what I'm hoping for. Let's see if it works.
 

Chesterlestreet

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That's exactly what I'm hoping for. Let's see if it works.
Yep - you never know how these things will work out. But - again - I like this concept. And I look forward to watching it from the sidelines.