All-Time South American and European XIs

[Physiocrat]

Someone commented on the Ballon d'Or all-time XI thread of creating an all-time XI and then someone chimed in with it being really difficult for a South American all-time XI. I have given it a bit of a think and come up with this - I'm not 100% happy but here we go.

-------------------Romario----------------
-----Pele-----------------------------Messi (MSN version)
------------ADS-------------Falcao---------------------------
-------------------Redondo-----------------------------------
Nilton--Passarella--Figueroa--J.Zanetti
-----------------------Fillol--------------------------------------------

Romario instead of R9 to be a genuine focal point to play around. ADS to drift left to allow Pele to cut in (Pele is best with another striker especially because he liked to run from relatively deep with the ball). Nilton to play a balanced role to give more freedom to Passarella. J Zanetti more attacking to overlap Messi.

I then thought why not go for a European XI -

-----------------------MVB--------------------------------
Best-------------------------------------Figo---------
------------Nedved---------L.Suarez-----------------
----------------------Voronin------------------------------
Maldini--Der Kaiser---Kohler---Lahm-----
--------------------Schmeichel-----------------

Similar setup to the SA side although fewer goals and better defensively. Lahm gets the nod over Vogts for his better attacking abilities (yes, Vogts was pretty good at that but Lahm was better).

What was interesting to me thinking about this is that there seem to be many more styles of play for a GOAT European team than for an SA one. The obvious example is to go the high-line and press for a Euro XI which you can't really do for SA?

 

[harms]

If the focus is on building a well-functioning XI, I would've loved to see something like this (picked Voronin over Rijkaard as I don't want to limit any player here and playing in a pivot behind Xavi & Iniesta would be a role a little too functional for Frank. Same with Stoichkov/Blokhin over Cristiano). Obviously there's going to be a high line and aggressive pressing involved.

Neuer
Lahm - Kohler - Beckenbauer - Krol
Voronin
Xavi - Iniesta
Rummenigge - Cruyff - Stoichkov

Pelé - Ronaldo
Maradona
R. Carlos - Redondo - Falcão - Cafu
Passarella - Figueroa - Ruggeri
Carrizo
​

I genuinely think that playing both Pelé and Maradona in such set up shouldn't be an issue and to watch Maradona play with such a talented team around him would be a marvel. I can't really fit in neither Di Stéfano nor Messi, I just feel that they both overlap more with Diego, while a early-mid 60's Pelé would be a great fit there. Also if any team is going to evade the European pressing machine, it's a this team.

​

 

[harms]

And the ultimate "feck you" play-off team for Europeans (with Sacchi on the bench, obviously):

van Basten - Gullit
Nedved - Matthäus - Rijkaard - Beckham
Maldini - Nesta - Baresi - Bergomi
Buffon
​

edit: to think that 5 of them had played together with their peaks more or less overlapping and I don't even count Bergomi who had played with Baresi & Maldini, but wasn't a part of that AC Milan (although there'a another link between him & Matthäus)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not ideal for Diego, but workable in a way!

...................Luis Ronaldo.....Messi........................
Maradona...............Pele........................Garrincha
.........Varela/Monti................Didi/Falcao.............
Marzolini................Figueroa.....................Djalma

 

[Invictus]

For some reason, I can't conceive a European XI without the combination of Platini (near unparalleled passing nous) and Cristiano (deadly finishing through half spaces), so probably this:

Very basic XI, all things considered...not proven to work seamlessly of course, but it's hard to envision much going wrong. The defensive mechanics should suit Beckenbauer as he influences the game in his own way, the central midfield duo form a robust platform for Platini to scheme and almost unilaterally orchestrate proceedings toward the final third, and Seeler can do a bit of everything up front in terms of tying up the loose ends, working his bollocks off and forming one half of the twin-tower model for Figo's crosses. Müller and van Basten would also be good when you consider their intelligence but a bit trickier to accommodate than Uwe — maybe you can have Stoichkov on the left and Müller at #9...that would be ace as well, and a nice overall tie-up with Der Kaiser.

For the South American selection, I really like @harms' XI at first glance as it's eminently uncluttered and easy to conceptualize. Maybe Ruggeri at left centerback and Alberto/Djalma at right centerback (if you buy them there), but that's it wrt. tinkering.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Messi + Don + Young Pele
or
Diego + Young Pele

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Christmas Tree!

...........................MvB.........................
..................Cruyff.....Gullit..................
....Rijkaard.......................Neeskens....
..................Beckenbauer.....................
Brehme....Baresi.... Nesta......Thuram

or

Cristiano......Seeler............Best
......................Platini.....................
.....Keane...................Matthaus.....
.....................Desailly......................
Maldini...........Scirea............Vogts

 

[harms]

If we look at the evolution of the goalkeeper's role over the years, with their position becoming further and further away from goal, is it fair to assume that Edgar's no-keeper tactics are what the future formations would look like?

 

[Physiocrat]

If the focus is on building a well-functioning XI, I would've loved to see something like this (picked Voronin over Rijkaard as I don't want to limit any player here and playing in a pivot behind Xavi & Iniesta would be a role a little too functional for Frank. Same with Stoichkov/Blokhin over Cristiano). Obviously there's going to be a high line and aggressive pressing involved.

Neuer
Lahm - Kohler - Beckenbauer - Krol
Voronin
Xavi - Iniesta
Rummenigge - Cruyff - Stoichkov

Pelé - Ronaldo
Maradona
R. Carlos - Redondo - Falcão - Cafu
Passarella - Figueroa - Ruggeri
Carrizo
​

I genuinely think that playing both Pelé and Maradona in such set up shouldn't be an issue and to watch Maradona play with such a talented team around him would be a marvel. I can't really fit in neither Di Stéfano nor Messi, I just feel that they both overlap more with Diego, while a early-mid 60's Pelé would be a great fit there. Also if any team is going to evade the European pressing machine, it's a this team.

​

Yeah, the 433 Total Football side is one obvious way to take the Euro XI. I considered the back 5 for the SA but it just didn't feel right for the continent known for attacking football to play with a back 5. Maradona is way less flexible than the other SA GOATs which is why I left him out. If we keep the 3412 I reckon Romario would be a better partner to Pele than Ronaldo as both R9 and Pele liked to drop deep and run with the ball . That said I doubt we agree on that - I seem to remember you had Eusebio and Ronaldo as a front two once.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Invictus If Platini and CR7 are in the Euro XI that is pretty much perfect. I have never been the biggest fan of CR7 though so prefer the MVB/Muller CF with Stoichkov on the left. No questions on the back 6.

 

[2mufc0]

CR the best European footballer of all time has to be in the team.

 

[harms]

If we keep the 3412 I reckon Romario would be a better partner to Pele than Ronaldo as both R9 and Pele liked to drop deep and run with the ball . That said I doubt we agree on that - I seem to remember you had Eusebio and Ronaldo as a front two once.

No, I can see your point. It depends on what you want — I like the additional width that Ronaldo provides in this formation as he roams around, I'm afraid of overcrowding already a very crowded central space.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Christmas Tree!

...........................MvB.........................
..................Cruyff.....Gullit..................
....Rijkaard.......................Neeskens....
..................Beckenbauer.....................
Brehme....Baresi.... Nesta......Thuram

or

Cristiano......Seeler............Best
......................Platini.....................
.....Keane...................Matthaus.....
.....................Desailly......................
Maldini...........Scirea............Vogts

No Lahm?

 

[harms]

CR the best European footballer of all time has to be in the team.

It's a coin-toss between him, Cruyff and Beckenbauer for me. He beats Cruyff on longevity, but I'm not sure how much does this count in those hypothetical XI when both players had more than enough years at their best.

That said, if I wouldn't go with a Cruyff/Pep hybrid, I'd go with Platini - Cristiano like @Invictus; and even in my formation replacing Stoichkov with Cristiano is probably something that has to be done even though it'll hurt the chemistry.

 

[Enigma_87]

EURO

South America

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

There are way too many in Europe all across the pitch.

Better idea would be to create a 4231, 433, back 3, diamond, 442.

All 5 formations should have unique players.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

EURO

South America

Both 4231 eh?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

No Lahm?

Good call. Forgot about him. He should be there in place of Thuram.

 

[Invictus]

Cristiano......Seeler............Best
......................Platini.....................
.....Keane...................Matthaus.....
.....................Desailly......................
Maldini...........Scirea............Vogts

Funnily enough, I'm not a big fan of the Platini + Cristiano combination in this type of 3-1-2-3-1 formation!

Reckon the scheme is more up Cruyff's alley given his overall tactical foresight, so maybe something that is structurally pragmatic while also indulging him, like this...

​

Possible alterations to up the star power of the team while retaining core totaalvoetbal principles: Cruyff as the point forward, van Basten up front and Neeskens as the right central midfielder. No room for Beckenbauer, unfortunately — as the central defender he might be restricted, and as the defensive midfielder there might be a dissonance between his and Cruyff's innate rhythms during transitions.

 

[Synco]

Best XI variations have been done, so I go by a Euro side I'd simply love to see, featuring a number of so far unpicked players.

------------------------------------------Seeler------------------------------------------
---------Eusébio------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Figo
--------------------------Charlton------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------Robson------------------
-----------------------------------------Voronin----------------------------------------

Zebec--------------------Moore----------------Stam------------------Brehme

------------------------------------------Yashin-----------------------------------------

Charlton/Robbo were both main men, but given their different styles and Charlton's adaptable game, I guess they might be brilliant together. Or does anyone who knows them better disagree?

 

[Hugh Jass]

Some people not putting Cryuff on the european team.

 

[harms]

There are way too many in Europe all across the pitch.

Better idea would be to create a 4231, 433, back 3, diamond, 442.

All 5 formations should have unique players.

Müller
Blokhin - Netzer - Figo
Keane - Neeskens
Breitner - Kohler - Beckenbauer - Vogts
Maier

Stoichkov - Cruyff - Rummenigge
Xavi - Iniesta
Voronin
Krol - McGrath - Ferdinand - Lahm
Neuer

Best* - Law
Charlton
Brehme - Davids - Robson - Kaltz
Cannavaro - Sammer - Thuram
Zoff

Cristiano - Seeler
Platini
Masopust - Tigana
Desailly
Facchetti - Scirea - Stam - Amoros
Yashin

van Basten - Gullit
Nedved - Matthäus - Rijkaard - Beckham
Maldini - Baresi - Nesta - Bergomi
Buffon

* at some point I realised that he doesn't really makes it in any of my teams, which is ridiculous, so I've put him next to Charlton & Law. With the runs of Robson & Sammer he can peel out wide and it's not like he's a bad goalscorer as well, he's fantatsic.
​

Somehow missed the inclusion: Dasayev, Banks, Moore, Koeman, Cabrini, Demyanenko, Stielike, Vieira, Pirri, L. Suarez, Gento, Matthews, Finney, Zidane, Rivera, Kopa, Laudrup, Puskas, Baggio, Eusebio, Sheva, Kocsis

​

Puskas is especially ridiculous, he probably should've taken Best's place.

 

[Physiocrat]

Seriously good works @harms in the last post.

@Invictus Any thoughts on how you would setup the SA side?

 

[Himannv]

Best XI variations have been done, so I go by a Euro side I'd simply love to see, featuring a number of so far unpicked players.

------------------------------------------Seeler------------------------------------------
---------Eusébio------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Figo
--------------------------Charlton------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------Robson------------------
-----------------------------------------Voronin----------------------------------------

Zebec--------------------Moore----------------Stam------------------Brehme

------------------------------------------Yashin-----------------------------------------

Charlton/Robbo were both main men, but given their different styles and Charlton's adaptable game, I guess they might be brilliant together. Or does anyone who knows them better disagree?

Quick, edit it out before EAP sees it!

 

[Synco]

Quick, edit it out before EAP sees it!

No way, I'm gonna stand my ground!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

There you go @harms , those teams already look more coherent than most teams posted so far. Great job, was planning to do it myself as well when I have free time

 

[Synco]

Given the sheer amount of European all time greats, it probably makes more sense to build the best possible teams around certain styles or key players than go for a supposed overall best XI. (I know it has partly been done already.)

 

[Physiocrat]

There you go @harms , those teams already look more coherent than most teams posted so far. Great job, was planning to do it myself as well when I have free time

What would your SA side be?

 

[Jim Beam]

Reckon the scheme is more up Cruyff's alley given his overall tactical foresight, so maybe something that is structurally pragmatic while also indulging him, like this...

Possible alterations to up the star power of the team while retaining core totaalvoetbal principles: Cruyff as the point forward, van Basten up front and Neeskens as the right central midfielder.

This, especially as you have Czibor on the left. Would pay good money to see that team and Cruyff would be in the centre of everything.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

What would your SA side be?

Its impossible to make just 1

----------------Pele--------Romario-------------
-----------------Zico-------Maradona------------
-----------------Zito---------Falcao----------------
Carlos---Chumpitaz--Figueroa------Cafu


Ronaldinho----------Batistuta----------Garrincha
--------------Di Stefano-------Socrates----------------
-----------------------------Varela---------------------------
Nilton----Passarella-----Ruggeri-----Djalma


------------Rivaldo------------Ronaldo--------------
-------------------------Messi----------------------------
--------------Didi----------------Redondo------------
------------------------Cerezo---------------------------
Zanetti----Godin------Santamaria--C.Alberto

 

[Invictus]

@Invictus Any thoughts on how you would setup the SA side?

Expanding on @GodShaveTheQueen's idea, probably something like...

Suárez
Schiaffino—Di Stéfano—Jairzinho
Vidal—Gonçalves
Marzolini—Mozer—Ruggeri—Alberto
Fillol

Rivaldo—Fenômeno
Sívori
Di María—Varela—Cambiasso
V. Andrade—Santamaría—Ayala—Cafú
Mazurkiewicz

Ronaldinho—Batistuta—Zizinho
Rivelino—Monti—Gérson
Pavoni—Lúcio—Thiago—Jorginho
Chilavert

Tostão—Erico
Maradona
Marcelo—Clodoaldo—Ardiles—Alves
Pereira—Passarella—Gamarra
Maspoli

Romário
Francescoli—Kaká
Júnior—Redondo—J. Andrade
Carlos—Chumpitaz—Nasazzi—Maicon
Carrizo

Pelé—Ademir
Zagallo—Zito—Didi—Garrincha
Nílton—Godín—Perfumo—Djalma
Gilmar

Kempes—Spencer
Sócrates—Zico
Cerezo—Falcão
Marinho—Figueroa—Aldair—Zanetti
Leão​

 

[Enigma_87]

Both 4231 eh?

It’s 4-3-3 actually

Tried to compare them side by side with same formation.
Probably if we’re looking at best possible formations it will be 5-3-2 for SA and 4-3-3/4-2-1 for Europe.

 

[Jim Beam]

It is not an all-time definitely, more my personal preference atm. You can shove Pele in Zico place if you really want. Funnily and for some reason, my team is always full of Europeans which I noticed just recently. Never picked Pele or Maradona and out of this 11, only picked Cafu, Carlos, Falcao and Redondo in all my time during drafts.

So, this is my SA tribute and the acknowledgement of their ever lasting genius. Without Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think I'm finally happy with two sides for SA. Not sure which is best.

---------------Pele------Romario-----------
ADS------Redondo--Falcao-----Garrincha
R.Carlos--Ruggeri--Figueroa--C.Alberto
-------------------------Fillol------------------------------

ADS is nominally on the left in a free role.

--------------Pele------Romario--------------------
Zagallo--Falcao---Redondo---Maradona---
Nilton----Figueroa--Ruggeri----Cafu-
--------------------- Fillol---------------------------

Maradona is in a free role nominally on the right. Passarella would start but dropped due to Maradona's inclusion.

 

[Synco]

Passarella would start but dropped due to Maradona's inclusion.

Saw this a couple of times, wonder if that's consensus here? I only read about their mid-80s fallout; or do you see any tactical issues for a fantasy football game?

 

[Jim Beam]

Saw this a couple of times, wonder if that's consensus here? I only read about their mid-80s fallout; or do you see any tactical issues for a fantasy football game?

There isn't any tactical issue with both of them playing IMO, it was an off-field problem. Au contraire, I would love to see them both picked in the same team despite that disagreement.

 

[Synco]

There isn't any tactical issue with both of them playing IMO, it was an off-field problem. Au contraire, I would love to see them both picked in the same team despite that disagreement.

Same with me, I think 1978 Passarella & 1986 Maradona together would be brilliant.

 

[Gio]

How I’d set Europe up against South America’s attacking riches:

Cristiano - Cruyff - Eusebio
Beckenbauer - Matthaus
Rijkaard
Maldini - Baresi - Nesta - Thuram
Buffon​

 

[Physiocrat]

Same with me, I think 1978 Passarella & 1986 Maradona together would be brilliant.

Yeah, they could work. Just wasn't sure. You could ship out Ruggeri in the second team for him. What I have learned from this is that the SA need wingers otherwise I don't like them. It's either a back 5 or no balance otherwise.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

european is just impossible to do so wont even bother.....edit: this wasnt much easier

Around Diego
Kempes/Tevez/Suarez Pele(young)
Diego
Redondo Zanetti
Carlos-----------------------------Cafu
Ruggeri Figueroa Djalma
Fillol

Around Di Stefano
Zagallo Pele(Young) Messi(msn)
Vidal Don Cambiasso
Marcelo Chumpitaz Godin Alves
Fillol

Around Messi
Suarez Messi(F9) Kempes
Falcao Ardiles
Goncalves
Marcelo T.Silva Figueroa C.Alberto
Alisson

Around Pele
Suarez Pele Fenomeno
Clodoaldo Ardiles
Dunga
Marcelo T.Silva Mozer Cafu
Alisson

​