Amadou Onana | Ornstein: Villa agree ~50m deal
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
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Hmmm, I don't know. Wasn't convinved when I saw him play against us recetnly. To me he's just a stronger version of Mctominay. Surely there must be better options out there?
The bad version of old Casemiro. Not good enough for a single pivot, and especially not for the price Everton would want. Far too slow without the positioning sense to compensate for that. Average on the ball. The way we play currently, he will get wrecked. Could be quite good for a physical midtable side that play defensive football.
Look elsewhere. Unless we are looking to be that side, that is.
Look elsewhere. Unless we are looking to be that side, that is.
Sir Jim Ratcliffe said he wants to focus on finding the next talent, as opposed to spending massive fees on players, so maybe we'll do what teams like Brighton have been doing over the last few years.
With that being said, if we want someone to replace Casemiro, it has to be someone who can come in and make an instant impact, in my opinion.
Haven't watched him enough but when I have seen him he looks good, especially at 22. If everton end up getting relegating he could be a good option at the 40m range.
What happened to Andre, anyone know if he's any good? Liverpool were in for him in the summer.
What happened to Andre, anyone know if he's any good? Liverpool were in for him in the summer.
I’m sorry, but I think you misread it.
His completion rate is 84 % in a team where the average is 73 %. I would argue that is impressive. His short, medium and long range passing completion rate is 90,4 %, 85,9 % and 74 % compared to team average of 85 %, 81 % and 48 %. Not only that, he is also their most progressive passer and the one who completes the most passes into the final third.
His expected assist is also quite high for a a central midfielder at 0,14 per 90 min. Casemiro, McT and Mainoo stands at 0,04.
Onanas passing stat is actually quite similar to Rice, but alot more creative. In other terms, his interception numbers is much, much lower than Rice. But the amount of recoveries they makes are basically the same.
If Onana played in Brighton his stats would be much more impressive. Now, he is a bit of a diamond in the rough and much better value.
I don't think people are considering this. A lot of posters in this thread keep mentioning that he'd do well in a double pivot, but ten Hag has gone away with the 4231, and now plays more of a 433, hence why I feel Casemiro has looked a lot more exposed, both on and off the ball this season. Last season, he had Eriksen next to him dropping into the back line and starting play, but ten Hag has decided to push our 8's quite high up.
This is the reason I believe we should be targeting a Rodri type player. Someone who has no problem recieving the ball in the first phase and dictating play. You could argue we have that in Mainoo, but what happens when we rest him or he picks up an injury?
Having said all of that, ten Hag did have a possession based side with Alvarez at the base of his midfield at Ajax, who wasn't exactly world class on the ball, and actually, if you were to compare the ability of the two players on the ball, I wouldn't say Alvarez is any better than Onana.
Below gives us more of an accurate representation of their passing ability, as they both play for teams that have similar playing styles.
I think it will all come down to balance and personnel on the pitch at the time.
I'd just prefer us to sign a footballer for the DM role as opposed to whatever he is supposed to be.
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I remember having the same arguments about Rice back when I did an analysis of Rice/Koopmeiners/Zakaria/Partey and Ndidi when we were looking to replace Matic.
People are underrating what a player is doing in a weaker side. The limiting factor here isn’t Onana it’s the players around him.
I think he’d be a fantastic addition and allow us to play with two attacking 8s a lot more easily in games we want to dominate up the pitch.
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Explain this please. What exactly is your issue here with him?
Of all the players that could go down this season this guy is the gem. We are way too easy to play against. We are too easy to run through. We have a short team defending high balls. In a better team with more possession this guy can be a real good box to box player and can sit in against the better teams. I believe he’s future international captain material too.
He looks very ungainly. I'd prefer us to target a player in the mould of Rodri. Someone a bit more cultured.
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Awkward, clumsy. A little like how Wan-Bissaka appears at times. He doesn't strike me as a particularly good footballer. Especially for the type of fee that Everton would want. Rodri is obviously far more technically proficient and doesn't give you that sort of vibe at all.
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I agree Rodri is technically superior.
Can you name a player that covers a defensive transition and offers similar technical levels to Rodri from DM though? I can’t I’ll be honest.
I’ve not really seen the clumsiness of Onana though I think I know what you mean? He’s 6ft 4 so his legs look gangly but he’s definitely a good footballer. I do think he’s got used to his physical gifts and uses those to his advantage whereas less physically able players often rely on technique so I can see why you’d interpret his physicality as worse.
I think it just allows him more room for error so a ball that is another 1/2 a yard away from him is still in control whereas for another player that would be opening the door to the opposition.
Personally I think we need someone of his profile. I think we’re lacking the physical side of the game more than the technical as Mainoo offers the first receiver role nicely. What Mainoo and all our other midfielders lack is the ability to “eat up grass” and defend large spaces.
I have no suggestions as far as a 'Rodri type' is concerned, but I'd like to think our scouts and recruitment team have a list of possible alternatives.
Fully agree with you that we need a physical presence in there alongside Mainoo. I suppose my issue is, is that I would hope we wouldn't have to compromise so much on the technical side either. Who that mystical player is though, I have no idea.
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I think this is where profiles come into play. For the type of football we want to play (which isn’t City’s complete possession dominance) I’m not sure a Rodri is right for us.
It’s also worth considering that City’s Rodri is probably our Martinez. In the sense, when fit, Martinez offers us that first ball through midfield. So what we need is to build the physicality into our side like City have with having 3 CBs on the pitch minimum every game.
My view currently is there isn’t a peak player like that so we lean slightly towards what our midfield sorely lacks. Mainoo and Mount have the technical level. Who has the physical?
That's true actually. Assuming Casemiro goes in the summer, we haven't really got a combative, physical midfielder, who can play as a 6. We have McTominay, but ten Hag clearly wants him to play higher, and I believe that's the best position for him, too.
I think next season, we could see a blend of the following:
Bruno - Mount
Mainoo
Bruno - Mainoo
CDM
Mainoo
Bruno - Mainoo
CDM
McTominay + Amrabat (3rd choice CDM) or New Signing as back ups
We do definitely do need physicality, but I hope we can target someone who has both physicality and technique. If Onana is the closest we can get to ticking both boxes, then ok. Perhaps Fabinho is the type of player we are hoping that Onana could be.
There's Mats Wieffer, but I haven't seen enough of him to give an accurate assessment.
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It’s one of those that you’re always going to lean slightly more to one side than another. My argument would be Martinez is technically superior so offers that element from deep and a Mainoo can connect us too. We might not need that kind of profile as much as we will need the physicality to play higher up the pitch and close the gap between our midfield and defence.
Put it this way. Look how high we press and the gap in midfield. Is the issue a lack of technique or a lack of athleticism in the defensive core of the side? I’d argue the issue is far more now the athleticism.
True, we have Martinez and Mainoo who can help in the build up phase. I'm just wary about signing a player who may be uncomfortable on the ball or in terms of technique. If Onana has a certain base level and won't be an issue in possession, then by all means sign him for his physicality and athleticism. I don't think our rivals would sacrifice footballing ability for physicality, so we need to make sure that Onana can provide enough of both.
I think so too. We can put teams under pressure and play some nice stuff but we can’t fully turn the screw. When we have the ball if we make a mistake we are in big trouble with all the space we leave behind. They can counter us with ease. Imagine a specialist player in there in Amads position against Liverpool constantly knicking the ball and taking it up field directly? That really suits the forwards we have. It also poses another major question for teams who want to go all out attack against us. It should in theory also shore up the middle and mean we concede fewer chances
He's the sort of player you aim to 'sign and refine' for a few million, before he gets his Premier League transfer. Same as Caicedo. Once they sign for Brighton and do a half-decent job, their value gets inflated so ridiculously high you need to be 100% convinced they will be a superstar.
Buying from other PL clubs is no longer a viable option, unless you're sure it's a 'final piece of the jigsaw' type situation or there's some sort of contract situation that means favourable terms
Buying from other PL clubs is no longer a viable option, unless you're sure it's a 'final piece of the jigsaw' type situation or there's some sort of contract situation that means favourable terms
I’m not sure there is much room for that anymore. There is a reason a club that Liverpool, that have been great in the transfermarket, where willing to pay £100 mill plus for Caicedo. That Arsenal where willing to pay that much for Rice. And that City cant find a good understudy for Rodri.
And Onana will likely cost close to half of Caicedo/Rice due to playing under Dyche in a system making him harder to evaluate.
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Are there many signings at the top 3 clubs Arsenal, City and Liverpool that you’d class as sign and refine?
There's not, and I think people like myself and others are taking what Sir Jim Ratcliffe said about signing the next Mbappe, etc out of context.
I think, the different between us and the teams you mentioned is, they seem to get their transfers right, more often than not, as they have a set system and philosophy, whereas ours has changed quite often.
Also, would you say any of the top 3 clubs have a player like Onana in their starting XI?
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Who?
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Rice, Saliba, Gabriel and Konate.
You've mentioned three centre backs. I was talking about midfielders from a stylistic point of view.
I also think Rice is much better on the ball than Onana.
This post pretty much nails it. I think if we did sign both Onana and Branthwaite from Everton then it would make us a lot stronger imo.
I also think signing Branthwaite could open up the possibility of utilising either Martinez or Branthwaite as the hybrid LB/LCB which I feel is going to become very important for managers who want to dominate the game on the ball. That flexibility where you have players who can tuck in and form a back 3 as well as be utilised at LB would be very beneficial. Arteta wanted Martinez for that hybrid role and I think he could really thrive in that role with his ability on the ball.
There's a young Italian player playing for Bologna called Riccardo Calafiori, who is also someone that looks tailor made for the LCB/LB hybrid role. And he's someone that I feel will be bought by a bigger club soon.
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I mention them because I think it is relevant to the overall profiles in the team.
For example Martinez for us. Who would you say he profiles most like for Liverpool/Arsenal/City (id argue it will be a midfielder). He’s not the physical more the technical so we also need to compensate for that.
Id say Rice’s West Ham earlier seasons from a technical stand point are quite similar.
Fair enough.
Onana is Deco's number 1 choice for the pivot. He believes Barcelona need someone very physical in that position.
I have not seen him play. How would he fit in Barcelona's 433? If he doesn't have the quality to distribute, the inside players could come down to receive and generate play.
I have not seen him play. How would he fit in Barcelona's 433? If he doesn't have the quality to distribute, the inside players could come down to receive and generate play.
Which bank have you lot robbed
Who currently plays the holding role for Barcelona?
Not at City, but there's no point comparing any other club to City, because they haven't been run for-profit - their approach was sign, sign and sign again until you stumble on the right combination.
Liverpool and Arsenal definitely have, I'm not only talking about buying players for £2/3m, I'm talking about buying players who still need a bit of work or have gone under the radar but are available for a decent fee. I'd happily put the likes of Salah, for example, in that bracket. Those two clubs rarely pay 'finished article' money - how many times has either club spent £60m+ on a player? I can't think of many.
The exceptions would be players like van Dijk, Allisson and Rice. Those are the only three I can think of that they have paid 'finished article' money for, and all three have been massive successes.
Back to the matter at hand (Onana), my point is that you're taking a big gamble on a player who I think nobody would claim is a 'finished article', or even close. If you're taking a gamble, you want to be taking gambles in the £0-£40m bracket so that you can 'fail fast' and move on, should it not work, and also not suffer the massive opportunity cost of blowing most of your budget on one player.
If Onana was available for £25m/£30m, I'd still be unsure about whether he's got the superstar quality but I'd feel better about taking the gamble. Once you starting talking about paying £40m+....well then I would think that there must be better options available outside the Premier League for more reasonable fees.
My personal preference would be start going to source (i.e. South America, Africa, minor European leagues etc...) for the majority of our signings and only add a £50m+ player when we're absolutely convinced they are the right player and will be a staple in our team for seasons to come. Sure that means you'll sign some duds, but trust your recruitment team and like I say, 'fail fast' when it doesn't work...if they're not hitting the heights after 12-18 months, move them on. SAF did it many, many times...pay a few million, give them a few games, quickly shift them on if it didn't work. It's only in recent times we've doggedly club onto average players like Fred, and that's because we overpaid for them.
I think this is like suggesting we sign a "Salah type" for RW. Would be great, but the odds against it happening are really high.
Rodri's "type" is being the best DM in the world.
We're far, far more likely to end up with someone who has 2 of Rodri's 3 main traits:
1) Physical presence
2) Good as a lone DM
3) Quality passer
From what I've seen of Onana, he has the physical presence and is a good short passer, but the more creative passing part of the job and being ready to play alone as a DM are question marks.
Someone like Zubimendi seems to have 2 and 3 but not 1. Tchouameni, Palhinha and Ugarte have 1 and 2 but not 3. Casemiro in his prime really only had 1 and 2.
So, likeliest outcome to hope for is that we compromise a bit on the technical side and eventually replace Bruno with another technically gifted midfielder and lose a bit of end product but Hojlund, Garnacho, a RW and 2 #8s (Mainoo and either Mount or the new Bruno replacement) is enough going forward, or we move on from Bruno immediately, sign a #8 too and have 3 midfielders that are all strong technically and try to keep the ball more, with again less direct end product, but hopefully everyone creates and finishes a bit more with a midfield that can run games out there.
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