Americans and doping

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
Fecking irritating that the yanks don't fight doping but allow their athletes in track and field to compete doped and there's nothing anyone can do about it. No wonder that they win every event as cheating is allowed. As they allow doping it basically forces the clean athlete to take doping in order to be able to compete with the doped one. Consequently we can assume that none of the yanks on the top of track and field are clean. Read in another paper that it was something like 15 that got caught but that were allowed to compete.

From ny times.

___

I.A.A.F. and U.S. Body Have Drug Dispute Settled
By FRANK LITSKY

The American and world governing bodies of track and field have argued bitterly over the Americans' refusal to disclose the names of a handful of athletes who failed at least a part of drug tests between 1996 and 2000. Yesterday, the dispute ended in more or less a draw.

The International Association of Athletics Federations, the world body, argued that its rules required that it be given the names of track-and-field athletes who tested positive for banned drugs. USA Track and Field, the American body, said its confidentiality rules prohibited that in some cases.

Last July, the I.A.A.F. and USA Track and Field agreed to take the case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland. After a two-day hearing in November, the three arbitrators issued a 48-page ruling yesterday.

The American body had argued that while it might have interpreted the I.A.A.F.'s rules incorrectly, it explained its rules to the world body and asked to be informed if it was wrong. It said the I.A.A.F. never responded.

The court said the world body had the right to require identification of those who failed drug tests. However, it said, "the I.A.A.F. was turning a deaf ear to repeated requests" by USA Track and Field to explain the reporting rules, "failing even to state in what manner a refusal to disclose, grounded in domestic confidentiality regulations, comprised a break of I.A.A.F. rules."

When an athlete is tested for drugs, the urine sample is split in two. If the first half, or A sample, tests positive, the second half, or B sample, is tested later. Positive B samples normally result in public disclosure and penalties. However, USA Track and Field refused to publicly identify athletes when the B sample tested negative or the athlete was cleared on appeal, sometimes because of a breakdown in the testing procedure.

One American athlete tested positive for anabolic steroids, but was cleared on appeal by the American body and competed in the 2000 Sydney Olympics. That athlete and others involved have not and will not be identified, the arbitrators ruled, saying it would be unfair to reopen the cases because "the case clearly concerns the lives, livelihood and reputations" of those athletes.

A similar dispute should not happen because the World Anti-Doping Agency, founded in 1999, now handles the drug testing in Olympic sports. Dick Pound, that organization's chairman, had urged the I.A.A.F. to expel the American body.

In a statement, USA Track and Field said its rules and those of the I.A.A.F. and the anti-doping agency "are now in agreement on disclosure and confidentiality matters."
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Ahmed,

Can you provide me with any specifics about individual US athletes who have been caught ?

I seem to hear alot of accusatory rhetoric, but few facts. Last year the Williams Sisters were accused of doping because they were beating many European athletes at their own game, and then going off to fashion shows. It's unfortunate that envy and jealousy have replaced sound facts in this debate over the years. Lance Armstrong is also routinely accused of doping, (presumably by Europeans who are pissed off that he keeps winning the Tour), and yet he hasn't been found guilty of this. I see a troubling pattern developing here...
 

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>Ahmed,

Can you provide me with any specifics about individual US athletes who have been caught ?

I seem to hear alot of accusatory rhetoric, but few facts. Last year the Williams Sisters were accused of doping because they were beating many European athletes at their own game, and then going off to fashion shows. It's unfortunate that envy and jealousy have replaced sound facts in this debate over the years. Lance Armstrong is also routinely accused of doping, (presumably by Europeans who are pissed off that he keeps winning the Tour), and yet he hasn't been found guilty of this. I see a troubling pattern developing here...</strong><hr></blockquote>

But the problem is Raoul as the article stated that the americans don't want to reveal the names because of fear of getting sued. So when IAAF aren't allowed to get the information, how am I supposed to get it?

This is the very problem, the americans do not want to give out the information they got in fear of getting sued. But even this article stated that it is a question of a handfull of athletes that they've been arguing about.
 

fortyseven

Full Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Messages
883
Location
Stockholm via Sale Moor
One specific case was that Belgian Blue who was married to Marian Jones. Too disgusting even for the Yanks to put up with.

The most obvious one ever was Flojo who kept her medals and world records when naughty non-American Ben Johnson was disgraced in front of the whole world.

A troubling pattern...
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
US has had ppl sus'd for drugs both men and women
flo jo is dead so it would be hard to strip her of wr or medals but you could if you wanted. ben johnson was dirty and tested so. did flo jo - no! so i guess they could dig her up and test her. would that make you happy.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Originally posted by fortyseven:
<strong>One specific case was that Belgian Blue who was married to Marian Jones. Too disgusting even for the Yanks to put up with.

The most obvious one ever was Flojo who kept her medals and world records when naughty non-American Ben Johnson was disgraced in front of the whole world.

A troubling pattern...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Was Flo Jo on something ? What evidence do you have ? The fact that she won the gold and has a muscular physique aren't proof, they're speculation.
 

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Was Flo Jo on something ? What evidence do you have ? The fact that she won the gold and has a muscular physique aren't proof, they're speculation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again Raoul, difficult to get any evidence as the american anti-doping control don't reveal anything.

But she came from nothing in the olympics in 88, won everything, set a world record that no-one can touch. No-one is even close to it today and she quit immediately after the olympics. She died at the age of 40 of heart failure, rather interesting that she got a heart attack at that age if all she had been eating her life was fruit and pourage. Everyone knows that steroids affect the heart. It's so obvious.
 

giggzy

The Fatter Bryan Robson
Newbie
Joined
Mar 2, 2001
Messages
19,905
Location
In my Mersey Paradise......
Raoul she must have been on something.


She died of multi organ failure, which is usually caused by steds.


Most athletes (especially 100m runners) are on steds, linford christie was...

US, UK, China etc etc all do it.

BTW didn't dennis mitchell get caught? the irony was that that he was on an anti-drugs commitee or sommat.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:
<strong>

Again Raoul, difficult to get any evidence as the american anti-doping control don't reveal anything.

But she came from nothing in the olympics in 88, won everything, set a world record that no-one can touch. No-one is even close to it today and she quit immediately after the olympics. She died at the age of 40 of heart failure, rather interesting that she got a heart attack at that age if all she had been eating her life was fruit and pourage. Everyone knows that steroids affect the heart. It's so obvious.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That may be a circumstantial case by tying all those things together. But the fact remains that if she wasn't charged and can't be faulted. The Williams Sisters routinely deal with people accusing them of doping, when imo they're just both genetically gifted athletes who have worked very hard to get where they are today. Also in FloJo's case; The Olympics perform independent testing, so any drug use would be exposed, even if that athletes respective nation tries to cover it up. Lance Armstrong is another case of an US athlete who kicks ass at a normally predominantly European sport and is therefore routinely targetted with doping accusations. I'm not saying that it's impossible that some of these athletes haven't taken performance enhancing drugs at some time in their careers, but to exclusively single out US athletes, when there is independent/international testing these days, smacks of pure jealousy and envy imo.
 

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

. Lance Armstrong is another case of an US athlete who kicks ass at a normally predominantly European sport and is therefore routinely targetted with doping accusations. I'm not saying that it's impossible that some of these athletes haven't taken performance enhancing drugs at some time in their careers, but to exclusively single out US athletes, when there is independent/international testing these days, smacks of pure jealousy and envy imo.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Credibility is the key word, it is not suprising that the american athlethes who do well get accused when the governing body in american don't take the doping problem seriously. If there was continous anti-doping work in USA, like here where they do suprise tests in the middle of their training period and occasionally even catch a cheater, people wouldn't be so suspicious of the results. The yanks are doing their clean athletes no favors by refusing to reveal the list of these 13 athletes who were caught. Now people will just continue to accuse them of doping as it's not considered a serious problem.

You need to have anti-doping system that has credibility.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:
<strong>

Credibility is the key word, it is not suprising that the american athlethes who do well get accused when the governing body in american don't take the doping problem seriously. If there was continous anti-doping work in USA, like here where they do suprise tests in the middle of their training period and occasionally even catch a cheater, people wouldn't be so suspicious of the results. The yanks are doing their clean athletes no favors by refusing to reveal the list of these 13 athletes who were caught. Now people will just continue to accuse them of doping as it's not considered a serious problem.

You need to have anti-doping system that has credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>


We don't have one socialist government run anti doping system. Its a free country so each sport has its own system of drug testing. The NFL does it different than the NBA, who in turn do it differently than the NHL and MLB. Each sport is inherently different and applying a universal standard to all sports doesn't make sense. Olympic athletes however are measured on the same international standard at the Olympics. Hence I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Again, I come back to the US dominance in the Olympics as the source of these allegations.
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>


We don't have one socialist government run anti doping system. Its a free country so each sport has its own system of drug testing. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Stupid remark if you consider how socialist republics used doping. The human nature being what is it, if there aren't controls, there will always be cheats.
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>Ahmed,

Can you provide me with any specifics about individual US athletes who have been caught ?

I seem to hear alot of accusatory rhetoric, but few facts. Last year the Williams Sisters were accused of doping because they were beating many European athletes at their own game, and then going off to fashion shows. It's unfortunate that envy and jealousy have replaced sound facts in this debate over the years. Lance Armstrong is also routinely accused of doping, (presumably by Europeans who are pissed off that he keeps winning the Tour), and yet he hasn't been found guilty of this. I see a troubling pattern developing here...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Lance Armstrong is not the only cyclist accused of doping. Just ask Richard Virenque or Pantani. People were just surprised to see his come back after his cancer. Anyway I'm convinced most of the cyclists use dope. Last year a lot of products were found in the car of a cyclist's wife, and he had gone through controls without result. They're always in advance. You dismiss a real concern (and for me doping is a concern, and I'm sure it exists in the Premier League too BTW) by saying we're just jealous because they're American, although my favourite player is Sampras and there are French players I don't like. For me tennis is an individual sport and I don't give a feck about the players nationality. Sorry but whenever I see Serena's muscles, I just wonder if it's natural. I JUST WONDER. I don't say she uses dope, but we have the right to ask questions.
 

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
I don't think it's possible to be at the top in the endurance sports like cross country skiing, cycling etc without doping. By using EPO they gain so much by the extra oxygen that it's worth taking the risc. Was a real wake up call for me a few years ago when our entire cross country team had been using systematic blood doping as it was unthinkable really that they would eat anything but vegetables and shit. What is even more comical is that the athletes who compete with the doped ones and lose by a few seconds claim that they are clean <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> . fecking evident that they are not if they're up there with the doped ones, so the result is that everyone is drugged. Thus it could be said that there is no problem, as everyone uses it, they cancel out eachother.

Another thing is that the athletes are usually one step ahead of those who chase them. Like Muhlegg in the olympics last year where he used NESP (some version of EPO) because it was something new that they didn't have any tests for. Well, they developed one just in time for the olympics and he was caught.
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>


Hence I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Again, I come back to the US dominance in the Olympics as the source of these allegations.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, too easy. It's just that in the US, you don't search for as many products as in Europe. Anyway the US are not the only country cited. It's probably worse in China for example. Claude Leroy, a French football manager has just come back from China and he has been scared of what he has seen there in the doping department.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
This paranoia about doping is out of control imo. Maybe we wouldn't be worried about these topics if more countries were winning more gold medals. ;)
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>This paranoia about doping is out of control imo. Maybe we wouldn't be worried about these topics if more countries were winning more gold medals. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

On the contrary, the reality is probably much worse than we fear. Not only in America, everywhere. BTW, we have swept in front of our own door before, the Italians have done too. It's surely not enough, see Rumsas's example. But if only some countries are concerned by the battle against doping, it won't be fair. As for the medals, before, (real) socialist countries like USSR or Eastern Germany used to bring back a lot of medals at the Olympics. Those who suspected something at the time, surprised by those manly female athletes, were just jealous ? In fact they were right, we know now that they massively used dope. The jealousy argument is just cheap.
 

giggzy

The Fatter Bryan Robson
Newbie
Joined
Mar 2, 2001
Messages
19,905
Location
In my Mersey Paradise......
Re Serena:

i think she's just big boned. Her muscles are more toned than anything. tis her chest, arse and thighs that make her look big.... (just look at how wide/big her ankle joints are)

she's just one big mama!! ;)


I disagree with Raoul, tis not a pop at the US at all. I've mention Linford and he's our greatest ever 100 metre sprinter!!

also heard rumours that Bruno took steriods...... and also Holyfield, which i've mentioned before - (btw he also had a hole in the heart condition..)


fact is steds are rife in sport.... which is understandable coz everyone wants to be number one. (this doesn't mean i condone it.)
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>

The jealousy argument is just cheap.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Its reality. Otherwise this thread would've been directed at all athletes in general instead of just Americans.
 

AhmedDimwitson

The Expert
Joined
Feb 14, 2001
Messages
5,246
Location
fi
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Its reality. Otherwise this thread would've been directed at all athletes in general instead of just Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was the american association that refused to do anything about it, that's why it's directed at America. Think you yanks are getting slightly paranoid here when it comes to yank bashing, you see it in every thread even those that haven't got it.
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
You need to have anti-doping system that has credibility.


in lance armstrongs case he's tested at international level. the euros think he's doping b/c he's kicking the shit outta everyone after having kicked the shit outta cancer. get over it and get on with it. oh and you may as well give him the yellow in paris this yr. funny but not mant frenchies came out to see the tour last yr. hmm , must be losing interest!
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
Its reality. Otherwise this thread would've been directed at all athletes in general instead of just Americans.

like the female irish swimmer a couple oylimpics ago - did nowt then broke records - then disappered - which is not true she's in ZZ Top now!
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
and aren't most track and field aths (or hockey players etc.) tested by international federations?
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Its reality. Otherwise this thread would've been directed at all athletes in general instead of just Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not because it's directed at Americans that it's jealousy ! It's just that it is well known Americans don't search for all substances.I don't care that much about medals. You're trying to dismiss our suspicions towards America by saying it's just jealousy, and you take the example of tennis. You have to know that my favourite player was Gabriela Sabatini,not really French, and that I will be very happy the day Blake will win a big tournament ! :mad:
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by mu77:
<strong>and aren't most track and field aths (or hockey players etc.) tested by international federations?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It depends of what they search. Certain federations only search drugs like cocaine etc... and not products like EPO. Anyway even the most serious tests can't find anything. Rumsas had gone through blood tests...
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by mu77:
<strong>


in lance armstrongs case he's tested at international level. the euros think he's doping b/c he's kicking the shit outta everyone after having kicked the shit outta cancer. get over it and get on with it. oh and you may as well give him the yellow in paris this yr. funny but not mant frenchies came out to see the tour last yr. hmm , must be losing interest!</strong><hr></blockquote>

The tour is always a very big success in France, and it was last year. Even too much for my liking, because in July it's cycling the whole day on telly. Armstrong is not really popular but it's like that. And just to tell you I'm not patriotic, I don't like the popular Virenque. Some sportsmen are liked, others are not, just like in tennis Agassi is popular, Steffi Graf was, Jennifer Capriati is popular in Paris, while Martina Hingis is unfairly whistled when she plays in Paris.
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
elffie - the crowds are normally 7 -8 deep in paris for the final day. it's been ages since a frenchman won and it's telling how many of your countrymen haved turned away. there were very few ppl in the rues. maybe it is the success of the national side or that l. fignon was the last i believe of your countrymen to win it.
 

Elfie

Guest
Originally posted by mu77:
<strong>elffie - the crowds are normally 7 -8 deep in paris for the final day. it's been ages since a frenchman won and it's telling how many of your countrymen haved turned away. there were very few ppl in the rues. maybe it is the success of the national side or that l. fignon was the last i believe of your countrymen to win it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If I'm not wrong Greg Lemond was American and he was popular here. I don't know about Paris, I remember that there were a lot of people, but I can tell you that there were a lot of people on the roads of France to applaud the cyclers. The Frenchmen hasn't turned away from cycling, just ask France 2 who brodcast the tour all the day ! Funny because in France it is said that the Americans begin to be interested in cycling because of Armstrong.
 

mu77

New Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
7,004
in reality they are still not interested. armstrong could still walk down most streets in the US without anyone batting a eye. personaly i'm not a big fan of lamond - but his story is compelling as well.
 

Elfie

Guest
Yannick Noah is the last Frenchman to have won a big tennis tournament, twenty years ago, and Roland Garros is still full every year. Cycling is extremely popular, and people won't turn their back to this sport just because of Armstrong. Still the attitude of certain Frenchmen (it's a minority but a minority is always well heard) towards Armstrong was digusting, particularly as Virenque was doped and may be still takes dope.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,139
Location
Hollywood CA
Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>

You have to know that my favourite player was Gabriela Sabatini,not really French.. </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> :eek: <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />