An Ideal #8 - Box-to-box

NewGlory

United make me feel dirty. And not in a sexy way.
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Marcelo Bielsa : “The hardest player to find in football is the 8. I named it ‘the Modric’, who defends like a 6 and attacks like a 10. He has the ability to defend, the skills to attack, and understanding the game in both directions"

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Thinking of the #8s we have had in recent years, it feels like we have been finding the opposite of Bielsa's #8s at United: they cannot defend as well as #6s and they cannot attack as well as a #10 so we stick them as #8

#facepalm :lol:
 
I think peak Casemiro is the type of player you want as an 8 in a 4-2-3-1 anyway, but you need to actually put him alongside a 6 who can pass the ball (like Real did with Kroos).
 
Dion said:
I think peak Casemiro is the type of player you want as an 8 in a 4-2-3-1 anyway, but you need to actually put him alongside a 6 who can pass the ball (like Real did with Kroos).
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Peak Casemiro was a 6 rather than 8.

For me, the best number 8 I've seen is Schweinsteiger from 2009-2015. He was the epitome of an all-round midfielder who could do everything in that part of the pitch, and at a very high level.
 
Scandi Red said:
Of course he is.
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In terms of all round ability, defensive and offensive. I wouldn't say he's out right better than Vieira, Keane and Modric but rather it's at that level.

You can choose to have a constructive discussion about it though or just make snarky remarks :)
 
Dion said:
I think peak Casemiro is the type of player you want as an 8 in a 4-2-3-1 anyway, but you need to actually put him alongside a 6 who can pass the ball (like Real did with Kroos).
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He is not that player. The No. 8 in a 4—2—3—1 needs to be better (and more consistent) at setting the tempo and orchetrating the proceedings. The ideal is more along the lines of peak Keane.
hasanejaz88 said:
For me, the best number 8 I've seen is Schweinsteiger from 2009-2015. He was the epitome of an all-round midfielder who could do everything in that part of the pitch, and at a very high level.
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Yes. Schweinsteiger fits the bill, too. A truly all-encompassing presence. As a rule of thumb, if someone's wondering what a great 4—2—3—1 looks like, Heynckes' Bayern Munich from that period is among the best starting points.

Gündogan as well, at least with regard to peak performance and pure talent for the role.

 
hasanejaz88 said:
Peak Casemiro was a 6 rather than 8.

For me, the best number 8 I've seen is Schweinsteiger from 2009-2015. He was the epitome of an all-round midfielder who could do everything in that part of the pitch, and at a very high level.
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He wasn't though, Kroos was the deepest of the midfielders and the one who picked up the ball from the defence. It's a common misconception with Ugarte too. Because they tackle a lot they get mislabelled as holding players.

Casemiro has never been secure enough on the ball or consistent enough in his passing for his best position to be a 6, his best defensive work is done on the front foot too, rather than a shielding player who defends on the turn.
 
Invictus said:
He is not that player. The No. 8 in a 4—2—3—1 needs to be better (and more consistent) at setting the tempo and orchetrating the proceedings. The ideal is more along the lines of peak Keane.

Yes. Schweinsteiger fits the bill, too. A truly all-encompassing presence. As a rule of thumb, if someone's wondering what a great 4—2—3—1 looks like, Heynckes' Bayern Munich from that period is among the best starting points.

Gündogan as well, at least with regard to peak performance and pure talent for the role.

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He was that player though, it's not the 8s who usually set the tempo in the teams, it's the 6's. That's why Kroos played the role for Madrid, because it allowed Modric and Casemiro to play vertically, which is their strength.
 
Anderson is probably the most similar young player to Scheiwny
 
Dion said:
He wasn't though, Kroos was the deepest of the midfielders and the one who picked up the ball from the defence. It's a common misconception with Ugarte too. Because they tackle a lot they get mislabelled as holding players.

Casemiro has never been secure enough on the ball or consistent enough in his passing for his best position to be a 6, his best defensive work is done on the front foot too, rather than a shielding player who defends on the turn.
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This is why I think it's so important to get a player who links the defense to offense and can play effective forward passes. Matic was great at it. Wharton looks like has the ability to do it but is suspect defensively (apparently). Can Anderson? If he can't get to that level I feel it's a gamble paying 80-100m for him.
 
Fred and Herrera are the most effective players we’ve signed and could do that role post-Fergie. Both had weaknesses in both attacking and defending aspects but brought the energy the role required.

I always see the role of 8 as dependent. A top top tier 8 can be effectively have two mid midfielders next to him and run the midfield off that with their class.

A very good 8/ acceptable one like Fred or Herrera can be the perfect foil for an excellent DM and an excellent 10. Herrera, Matic, Pogba is the closest we’ve had to that. This is what I feel Anderson brings with Gibbs White and whoever else is in the middle (Dominguez, Sangare etc). I’m not convinced Anderson would be able to step up as the best player at either aspect of those without significantly better players next to him
 
Invictus said:
He is not that player. The No. 8 in a 4—2—3—1 needs to be better (and more consistent) at setting the tempo and orchetrating the proceedings. The ideal is more along the lines of peak Keane.

Yes. Schweinsteiger fits the bill, too. A truly all-encompassing presence. As a rule of thumb, if someone's wondering what a great 4—2—3—1 looks like, Heynckes' Bayern Munich from that period is among the best starting points.

Gündogan as well, at least with regard to peak performance and pure talent for the role.

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Yea Gundogan was great at Dortmund before injuries reduced his dynamism, though he still created a great legacy at City eventually. @Zehner claims he was better than Schweinsteiger, though I don't agree :lol:

Heynckes' Bayern was the perfect example of a 4-2-3-1 with a 6 - Gustavo/Martinez, 8 - Schweinsteiger and 10 - Muller/Kroos. Loved watching that team and especially how strong and versatile they were in midfield, could play counter-attacking football and possession football just as well.

Dion said:
He wasn't though, Kroos was the deepest of the midfielders and the one who picked up the ball from the defence. It's a common misconception with Ugarte too. Because they tackle a lot they get mislabelled as holding players.

Casemiro has never been secure enough on the ball or consistent enough in his passing for his best position to be a 6, his best defensive work is done on the front foot too, rather than a shielding player who defends on the turn.
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I suppose it's just how you define the number 6 role, I think most associate it with defense rather than just build-up. You can have a number 8, who is also responsible for build-up and therefore comes deep, play alongside a number 6. It's not required for the number 6 to be a deep playmaker.

It depends no how the team is set-up, you can have a '6' like Pirlo who plays with a bunch of high energy '8' (Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio) or have a pure DM '6' who doesn't go forward a lot and paired with a box-to-box '8' and an offensive '10'.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I suppose it's just how you define the number 6 role, I think most associate it with defense rather than just build-up. You can have a number 8, who is also responsible for build-up and therefore comes deep, play alongside a number 6. It's not required for the number 6 to be a deep playmaker.

It depends no how the team is set-up, you can have a '6' like Pirlo who plays with a bunch of high energy '8' (Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio) or have a pure DM '6' who doesn't go forward a lot and paired with a box-to-box '8' and an offensive '10'.
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Yeah, there's more than one way to skin a cat as they say. Even Schweinsteiger played the 6 with Martinez pushed up in some games depending on what they needed from players in deeper areas.

My thoughts on Casemiro is that there seems to be such a shortage of 6's who are actual hybrids now that you're almost certainly going to have to play someone whose first priority is on the ball like Wharton rather than a proper shield as the alternative is really limited players like Paulinho. For that you want someone who is more defensively proactive. It's always about finding a balance.
 
Gerrard and lampard when they played cm? They used to defend certain seasons and would get in opposition box too. Schweinsteiger is a good shout too.
 
Regarding kroos and modric, they both used to drop deep to collect ball, mostly when casemiro was marked or pressed. They slso formed passing triangles, kroos with Ronaldo and marcelo and modric with bale and carvajal.
 
An ideal #8? Juventus and early Bayern Munich's Arturo Vidal.

Who ironically was regularly used as a LB by Bielsa.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Yea Gundogan was great at Dortmund before injuries reduced his dynamism, though he still created a great legacy at City eventually. @Zehner claims he was better than Schweinsteiger, though I don't agree :lol:

Heynckes' Bayern was the perfect example of a 4-2-3-1 with a 6 - Gustavo/Martinez, 8 - Schweinsteiger and 10 - Muller/Kroos. Loved watching that team and especially how strong and versatile they were in midfield, could play counter-attacking football and possession football just as well.
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To clarify, I think Gündogan in his peak under Klopp was better in terms of ability but that peak was very, very short. Too short to be sure that he could have maintained that level even without his back injury and also too short to be considered better over their entire career than someone like Schweinsteiger for me. Plus, Schweinsteiger was a great leader in his prime while Gündogan only developed those qualities when he was just a shadow of his younger version (still decent, though).

I don't really agree that Heynckes' Bayern is a perfect example of a 4-2-3-1, though. With Kroos on the pitch, that system looked a lot like a 4-3-3 because Kroos interpreted that position more like an 8 while Schweinsteiger was more of a 6/8 hybrid, too. But yes, they were phenomenal.
 
Raul Madrid said:
Gerrard and lampard when they played cm? They used to defend certain seasons and would get in opposition box too. Schweinsteiger is a good shout too.
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Come on. Gerrard has the talent, skill and energy, but never the discipline. Lampard, was more like a 10, or somewhere between 8 and 10 (9.5?), but not the defensive contribution
 
Modric didnt attack like a #10, thats why he was voted as the worst signing when Madrid used him there
 
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De bruyne. Hes was pure attack in his first seasons at city but i think what raised him to world class and probably best cm in the premier league era was when he started to really improve his defensive contributions, and you saw him pressing and regaining possession all over the place
 
Raul Madrid said:
Regarding kroos and modric, they both used to drop deep to collect ball, mostly when casemiro was marked or pressed. They slso formed passing triangles, kroos with Ronaldo and marcelo and modric with bale and carvajal.
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Kroos was usually the deepest player.
 
DrRodo said:
De bruyne. Hes was pure attack in his first seasons at city but i think what raised him to world class and probably best cm in the premier league era was when he started to really improve his defensive contributions, and you saw him pressing and regaining possession all over the place
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He did that for what? One season? Maybe two?

His defensive contribution was awful for years.
 
There is a few talented young players who could suit Bielsa describtion. Alex Scott and Mateus Fernandes are two. Sangare at Lens too deserves a mention.
 
Roy Keane, who typically gets talked about as a defensive midfielder but he was really a box-to-box midfielder.
 
Blood Mage said:
Roy Keane, who typically gets talked about as a defensive midfielder but he was really a box-to-box midfielder.
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Keane actually wore 16 because he was twice the player of a regular no 8.
 
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ItDoesntEvenMata said:
Fred and Herrera are the most effective players we’ve signed and could do that role post-Fergie. Both had weaknesses in both attacking and defending aspects but brought the energy the role required.

I always see the role of 8 as dependent. A top top tier 8 can be effectively have two mid midfielders next to him and run the midfield off that with their class.

A very good 8/ acceptable one like Fred or Herrera can be the perfect foil for an excellent DM and an excellent 10. Herrera, Matic, Pogba is the closest we’ve had to that. This is what I feel Anderson brings with Gibbs White and whoever else is in the middle (Dominguez, Sangare etc). I’m not convinced Anderson would be able to step up as the best player at either aspect of those without significantly better players next to him
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Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson!
 
I'll go with a left field pick of Kaka or Redondo here, given Keane/Modric/Viera have already been mentioned in almost every post and are the obvious choices!
 
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
Fred and Herrera are the most effective players we’ve signed and could do that role post-Fergie. Both had weaknesses in both attacking and defending aspects but brought the energy the role required.

I always see the role of 8 as dependent. A top top tier 8 can be effectively have two mid midfielders next to him and run the midfield off that with their class.

A very good 8/ acceptable one like Fred or Herrera can be the perfect foil for an excellent DM and an excellent 10. Herrera, Matic, Pogba is the closest we’ve had to that. This is what I feel Anderson brings with Gibbs White and whoever else is in the middle (Dominguez, Sangare etc). I’m not convinced Anderson would be able to step up as the best player at either aspect of those without significantly better players next to him
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Ironic....

Fred and Herrera were the epitome of our discounted take on #8 - not good enough either defensively or attacking wise so we stuck them as #8 to excuse both... At least Herrera never got enough minutes but we sure as hell saw enough of Fred...
 
owlo said:
I'll go with a left field pick of Kaka or Redondo here, given Keane/Modric/Viera have already been mentioned in almost every post and are the obvious choices!
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Can’t quite follow here. To me he was a clear number ten, or even a shadow striker at times.
 
Kaka, Casemiro, Essien and Anderson

This thread is all over the fecking place. Amazing how a group of people can read a definition and all have such different interpretations
 
HTG said:
Can’t quite follow here. To me he was a clear number ten, or even a shadow striker at times.
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He was, but he also played back sometimes if I recall correctly, and was quite capable playing deeper. He was pretty special at 10, which is why he was deployed there (as was redondo at 6), but was quite capable as an 8 too. Happy to be corrected on this as it was a while ago and I was young!
 
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