Schweinsteiger.
An Ideal #8 - Box-to-box
- Thread starter NewGlory
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What a player he was. Doesn’t get the recognition he deserves.
To the Real Madrid fans on here…would you have him in an all-time Madrid side?
Peak Bryan Robson is the answer
Honestly
Schweinsteiger was a good shout though. That's the profile of a true box to box. Kaka "defending like a 6" is nonsense.
Declan Rice isn't of the same standard as Schweinsteiger, Keane etc, but he's a decent modern example.
Modric
Seedorf
Gullit
Scholes
I loved Seedorf. Absolute beast in every area. Quick, strong, technically gifted, creative, power shot....amazing player
Seedorf
Gullit
Scholes
I loved Seedorf. Absolute beast in every area. Quick, strong, technically gifted, creative, power shot....amazing player
Was about to say Seedorf. Serie A had a glut of those type of players.
Nainggolan and De Rossi spring to mind.
Bastian Schweinsteiger was the greatest 8 in the history of the game. Perhaps there was someone in the 1950s who was even greater, but I seriously doubt that. He had the engine, the technical ability, the vision, the leadership...everything you could want in an 8 and that we will never see again in our lifetimes.
Bryan Robson for me is the epitome of whats now considered to be an ‘8’ as he was truly an all action box to box who could defend, tackle, pass short and long, run with the ball, shoot and score plenty of goals and is probably my all time favourite midfielder.
As much as I hated him as a player Emanuel Petit was a decent shout as an 8 and maybe going back further Lothar Matthaus who was so good at both ends of the pitch he went from being amongst the top scorers in Serie A at its most defensive at his peak to playing as a sweeper behind centre backs.
As much as I hated him as a player Emanuel Petit was a decent shout as an 8 and maybe going back further Lothar Matthaus who was so good at both ends of the pitch he went from being amongst the top scorers in Serie A at its most defensive at his peak to playing as a sweeper behind centre backs.
Given people have mentioned past players, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Matthaus. I didn't say him because I didn't see him live in his prime but surely he's the greatest example of a box to box number 8 the game has seen?
Mostly because not many would have seen him play aside form highlights of a European game or internationals
Nainggolan was a baller.
Spot on.
Seedorf was not that good of a box-to-box No. 8, in all honesty (especially in the grand scheme of things). A very talented player but would routinely drift in and out of matches on top of relenquishing his defensive responsibilities, which is not something you would associate with an elite box-to-box No. 8. Particularly at Milan, he was more effective as a mercurial/lackadaisical but adaptive offensive midfielder who linked up with the forwards.
Davids and Seedorf are oftentimes spoken of in similar light due to their Ajax roots but the former was a tier or two above, and much more consistent and committed on a week-to-week and season-to-season basis. An irrepresible “one-man midfield” who definitely merits a mention alongside the All-Time greats of the box-to-box No. 8 role.
We do not speak about Matthäus, it's not fair!
P.S., We do not speak about Beckenbauer either.
Yep and top class at it. Same was Robbo
And an absolute head case to go with it!
I think we're at the point of nominating a top 5 8s of all time. For me it's this:
Schweinsteiger
Matthaus
Keane
Vieira
Robson
Gerrard is a very respectable shout but he's not quite in the top 5. Gullit and Neeskens as well.
Schweinsteiger
Matthaus
Keane
Vieira
Robson
Gerrard is a very respectable shout but he's not quite in the top 5. Gullit and Neeskens as well.
Yeah the Kaka shout is confusing and well…kaka
Spot on re David’s (& Seedorf).Seedorf was not that good of a box-to-box No. 8, in all honesty (especially in the grand scheme of things). A very talented player but would routinely drift in and out of matches on top of relenquishing his defensive responsibilities, which is not something you would associate with an elite box-to-box No. 8. Particularly at Milan, he was more effective as a mercurial/lackadaisical but adaptive offensive midfielder who linked up with the forwards.
Davids and Seedorf are oftentimes spoken of in similar light due to their Ajax roots but the former was a tier or two above, and much more consistent and committed on a week-to-week and season-to-season basis. An irrepresible “one-man midfield” who definitely merits a mention alongside the All-Time greats of the box-to-box No. 8 role.
We do not speak about Matthäus, it's not fair!
P.S., We do not speak about Beckenbauer either.
Where does Vitinha fall on this? One of the best midfielders, if not the best, but he doesn't defend like a 6 nor attack like a 10.
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Unfortunately Gerrard deserves a mention here too. If Pogba was wired like Roy Keane he would have been one of the best box to box midfielders we've ever seen.
That is true of so many very talented players who for whatever reason didn't have that extra bit of elite mentality. You cannot train that, imo, in the sense of skills. It's everything about you -- you can train it, I guess, but if you have that top mentality to start with the rest of what you do will be far better because everything, standards wise, and in terms of desire, is so much stronger.
I like that list. Can only really speak to 4 out of the 5 and only 3, properly out of that 4, but from what I know Matthaus was outstanding (before my time).
I don't think Gerrard was an 8, and Rafa felt that as well. A number 8 needs to be disciplined on and off the ball and disciplined was one of the last words you'd associate Gerrard with. He was a great 'moments' player, which was why Liverpool were relatively successful in cup competitions with him playing as a CM, but when it came to leagues, over more games, Liverpool's best seasons with him was when he was either playing on the right (01-02) or as a number 10 in front of Xabi/Masherano.
I always felt he tried too many hollywood passes and was too aggressive as a number 8 so it was better to let him be free of those responsibilities as a number 10. Exactly the same case with Pogba, and why he never found the same Juve form at United.
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Ruud Gullit
I think I’m almost seeing a difference in how people are interpreting Biesla’s definition and a box to box midfielder as I’ve known it myself. I’d have put player’s like Robson Keane Ince and Essien as box to box but per definition none of these I’d say were similar to Modric stylistically.
Not saying I don’t rate these players but I wouldn’t say they played the role the way Luka did. Maybe it’s about shirt numbers as I know they see them slightly differently in Argentina I’m sure?
I’m almost splitting it into categories as more physical and energetic vs tactical and positioning based? Ie Keane and Ince Vs Scholes and Carrick. What roles did each play in their respective teams?
Not saying I don’t rate these players but I wouldn’t say they played the role the way Luka did. Maybe it’s about shirt numbers as I know they see them slightly differently in Argentina I’m sure?
I’m almost splitting it into categories as more physical and energetic vs tactical and positioning based? Ie Keane and Ince Vs Scholes and Carrick. What roles did each play in their respective teams?
Scholes played a Modric role, Keane played a Casemiro role
Agree - I’ve always thought that Pogba and Gerrard were very similar players but that Gerrard cared more about Liverpool than Pogba ended up doing about United, which led Gerard to produce more of those moments.
Peak Arturo Vidal - Yaya Toure is that player.
Looked back at that period a little. He was clearly a midfielder for me at Milan in the early years, starting from 8 and driving hard, much like a Yaya Toure. He said both here that he had a midfielders mentality and had to adapt, and post career that he would have been an 8/box to box midfielder in todays world.
Kaká in 2023 "The no.10 position has already been completely lost... with the defences so advanced, there is hardly any space left in the center of the field."
"'The truth? No. Above all because the positions have changed. I played for Milan as a midfielder for many years, something that has evolved with the appearance of box-to-box midfielders. What's more, I don't know where I would play in this more physical football, if I would play it a little more open to the left or 'box to box'."
I maintain he and Redondo are perfectly valid left field/fun picks for a box to box, should they have been playing in todays world. He's most similar to a David Silva for me, who was perfectly capable of playing box to box.
If you look at the number of goals scored by some of the names mentioned then Robson and Matthaus are streets ahead of everyone else.
Gerrard wasn't uniquely a central midfielder, often playing out wide, as an attacking midfielder or up front. Most of the others' goalscoring records are much more inferior.
I never saw a lot of Lothar Matthaus in his younger days, or perhaps in his prime...but his stats are really impressive.
Given those factors, then statistically the best box-to-box midfielders are Matthaus and Robson.
Gerrard wasn't uniquely a central midfielder, often playing out wide, as an attacking midfielder or up front. Most of the others' goalscoring records are much more inferior.
I never saw a lot of Lothar Matthaus in his younger days, or perhaps in his prime...but his stats are really impressive.
Given those factors, then statistically the best box-to-box midfielders are Matthaus and Robson.
See this is probably what I think he was referring too. I think Scholes was that before Modric at Madrid then adapted again to playing alongside Carrick.
I don't want to be the apologist for Gerrard here, but he wasn't a 6 and he wasn't a 10. He wasn't a striker or a winger, or an inverted forward, and certainly not a CB or a fullback. If he wasn't an 8, then what we would have to argue is that he was a free range footballer, allowed to go anywhere at any time for any reason, but that wasn't the Gerrard I remember. I do remember him comfortably anywhere on the pitch, on or off the ball...but he definitely relished having the ball and saving his team (which was for the most part not outstanding) time and time again.
I'm not sure it's fair to describe Gerrard as undisciplined off the ball. One could argue it, but then would have to concede that Scholes was undisciplined off the ball. And as true as both statements might be, it would be missing the point of what made these two footballers so special. As for his play off the ball, Gerrard got plenty stuck in, sometimes recklessly (Ander Herrera) but usually with great impact. And it's not as though he was just a "great moments" long distance shot master. His long range passing was well above average, he wasn't a selfish player with the ball although when the shot was there he most definitely took it. And he did his part in defense as well.
Gerrard should never be included in the same sentence as Pogba. Pogba had more natural ability and athleticism, but Gerrard was miles ahead of Pogba at least in terms of their play in the PL.
I think when Moussa Dembele when at Spurs was absolute class, one player I wish we signed. Probably didn’t do it on a regular enough occasion but he definitely sticks out in my opinion, in recent years anyway.
You see how this post makes no sense right?
My genuine first thought
I think number 8 is quite broad. I don't think Gerrard was disciplined or calculated enough to play in a midfield two, but in a 433 with one DM and 2 '8s' he would have been very good. I only recall him playing that position a bit under Rodgers, when Gerrard was already early-mid 30s.
Similar for Pogba - he had excellent spells at United. Most notably a spell when we played a Matic, Herrera and Pogba trio in midfield. He was very much a number 8 in that setup, not a number 10, albeit the most offensive of the two 8s. On a side note, I think Pogba always suffered from managers thinking they could turn Pogba into something he wasn't. Perhaps because of his physique.
Another example, Iniesta is one of the best 8s in the past 20 years, but I don't think he would have excelled to nearly the same extent in a midfield two. I think there should be a differentiation between an 8 in a midfield three and an 8 in a midfield two. In all setups, balance is also important, as very very few midfielders excel in all aspects of the game. So much so that describing them simply as number 8s doesn't really do them justice. They are complete midfielders.