And while we're at it...

[Alex99]

I was thinking about this last night and came up with the following, potentially bollocks solution:

UEFA are already introducing a third European tournament in the form of the Europa Conference League, so this is based on having three competitions.

UEFA Champions Cup
UEFA Cup Winners Cup
UEFA Elite Series
(all above names are just the shite I came up with)

A team could potentially play in all three competitions in a single season, with the UEFA calendar being split into three-weekly blocks.

Champions Cup is a return to the old European Cup format. League champions only, potentially add berths for the reigning holders and the previous winners of the Cup Winners Cup. Straight knockout and seeded so that champions from stronger nations enter in later rounds.

Cup Winners Cup is basically a return to that format, once again straight knockout and seeded, and probably wise to put the winners of secondary cups such as the League Cups in at an earlier round than the main cup winners from the same country.

Elite Series (or whatever better name they can come up with) may be controversial, but I think alongside the others, it potentially solves super league problems. Once again, straight knockout, except no seeding. Don't know whether 16 or 32 teams would fit better in the calendar, but I like the idea of 16 teams more as it feels more exclusive. Entrants are reigning holders, previous champions cup winners, and then the rest filled in by the highest coefficient ranked teams.

With them all being knockout tournaments, and with seedings for the Champions and Cup Winners Cup, it shouldn't add too many games to the calendar, the top teams that consider themselves the elite get their own little tournament providing they can actually perform to an elite level, and if you're good enough, you could win a European treble.


As for the League Cup, I have a vague memory of writing up an alternative structure to that which involved separating out the previous season's top 8 from the PL into their own enclosed path to the semi-final (might have even been final), and playing a straight knockout tournament pre-season in whichever corner of the world paid them the most money to do so, but this was in response to those daft ideas of playing league games in the US and Dubai so not sure if it would be necessar here.


Also the possibility I've just gone completely mad.

 

[arnie_ni]

Ridiculous argument IMO.

You're suggesting someone that wins a domestic cup competition gets at least a play off place for the CL while actual champions of their leagues need to play 4 qualifiers.

That's not what he said, at all.

He said 4th place in the prem play the fa Cup winners.

Not first place in Scotland or somewhere

 

[Moriarty]

I think FA cup is cheapened because of the league cup. It makes no sense to have two knock out competitions featuring the same teams.

Tin pot trophy and the brainchild of Alan Hardaker whose name still lives in infamy. Getting rid of the ECWC was a stupid move and it should be reinstated.

 

[Jev]

I disagree with the OP.

The big prize at the end of the FA Cup is that you win the FA Cup, one of the historically most important cup tournaments in the world.

It's a shame that the biggest clubs, and to be honest some fans, don't see that as prestigious enough anymore.

But I don't think the solution is to add further incentives. That would just cheapen the tournament further and act as an admission that the trophy itself is not enough.

It's the same with the Europa League. The last time we won it, you could easily argue that the true prize was the Champions League ticket rather than the trophy. That lessens the tournament, in my opinion.

 

[Grinner]

This bullshit again

We're just going to pretend the FA had nothing to do with that decision, are we?

So Fergie was just the FAs bitch?

 

[Withnail]

So Fergie was just the FAs bitch?

Oh it was Fergie's decision now was it?

This is a poor attempt at a wum.

 

[galwayfa]

If you take the league Cup out of Steven Gerrard medal haul, he would have won only 4 medals, does a player put on his cv that he won 6 league cups or say he played in 9 consecutive champions league without winning any, sport is about winning and winning should be rewarded, think a champions league spot if you are given out 4, is to each of the knockout cups and 1st and 2nd, teams will treat cup competitions a bit more serious too,

 

[rcoobc]

Who was it who dissed the FA Cup by skipping it one year to play in some bollocks tournament?

This bullshit again

We're just going to pretend the FA had nothing to do with that decision, are we?

Sad thing about that is we didn't need to withdraw.

The FIFA Club World Championship was from 5th January to the 14th January. The FA Cup 3rd round was on weekend 11th December 1999 and the FA Cup 4th round (the dates that clashed), was on weekend 8 January 1999

Manchester United chairman Martin Edwards believes that his team are in a "no-win" situation after the Football Association told them they could opt-out of next season's FA Cup.
United have been informed that the club can miss next season's FA Cup in order to take part in Fifa's inaugural World Team Championship.

But that decision has angered United fans who would like to see their side defend the Cup they won as part of their treble.

"We're going to get criticized whatever we do," said Edwards.

"If we don't go people will say that we are selfish and only looking after ourselves and not prepared to help the 2006 World Cup bid.

"But we will also be criticised if we say we're not going to compete in the FA Cup."

It already seems that the vast majority of United fans see the FA offer as one which is not mutually beneficial.

"They've shown very little offer of help in the past when United have looked to ease their fixture congestion," said Andy Walsh, chairman of the Manchester United Independent Supporters' Association.


"This blinding conversion is all to do with the 2006 campaign."

The FA and the Government have already admitted that United's participation is essential to the England bid to stage the 2006 World Cup

The World Team Championship, which will bring together the best team from each of the six continents, takes place in Brazil next January - just eight weeks before Fifa members vote on 2006.

One major FA fear is that if United fail to compete in the event, Bayern Munich - runners-up in last month's European Cup final - will take their place and hand Germany a huge advantage within Fifa in terms of the World Cup bid.

Sports minister Tony Banks urged United to put the national interest first by pulling out of the FA Cup.

"Failure to go to Brazil would do irreparable damage to the 2006 bid," he said.

"This is more important than the FA Cup and I hope United fans appreciate that. It is only for one season."

The FA's interim executive director David Davies insisted United would only be allowed to sit out the Cup for one season.

"This is an unprecedented situation that demands an unprecedented solution, " he said.

"For the first time, there is a competition which will produce the undisputed best club in the world and we believe that Manchester United should have the chance to be part of that.

"We believe that it would send the worst possible signal to world football at a time when we are in the midst of the 2006 bid to turn our backs on this tournament."

'Mickey Mouse' cup

David Mellor, chairman of the National Football Taskforce, said he was "personally very strongly opposed" to the move.

The BBC radio presenter and former Tory MP said: "I do understand the pressure of 2006, but I don't see why domestic competitions - particularly the most prestigious domestic cup competition in the world - should be down-graded so United can participate in what we would otherwise regard as a Mickey Mouse tournament."

But there is an obvious solution: Allow United to come in straight into the 5th round, rather than the 3rd round, as a one off.

There would be some changes required; eight teams that usually enter in the 3rd round would have to enter in the 2nd round instead. So... do that? Take eight of the then "first division" teams and enter them in Round 2 rather than Round 3. Hardly anyone would of noticed. It would have been a footnote in history.

Obviously there was the wider problem of fixture congestion for United. United played the UEFA Super Cup in late August, Intercontental Cup on the 30th November, and finally the Club World Championship in January (potentially 4 games). That's six extra games.

When United got back from the CWC they had played 19 Premier League games three game behind everyone else.

But they didn't use the early FA Cup dates to catch these games up! The Third FA Cup round was played on the weekend of the 11th December. United didn't have a game that weekend. The 5th FA Cup round was played on the weekend of the 29th January. United didnt have a game that weekend either.

They did have Prem games on the weeks of the quarter finals (the 6th round as it was then) and the semi finals - but that's it - and that is standard practice throughout the league. Two football dates only needed to be found. This could easily have been done by borrowing dates from the League Cup if needed.

 

[Cal?]

I disagree with the OP.

The big prize at the end of the FA Cup is that you win the FA Cup, one of the historically most important cup tournaments in the world.

It's a shame that the biggest clubs, and to be honest some fans, don't see that as prestigious enough anymore.

But I don't think the solution is to add further incentives. That would just cheapen the tournament further and act as an admission that the trophy itself is not enough.

It's the same with the Europa League. The last time we won it, you could easily argue that the true prize was the Champions League ticket rather than the trophy. That lessens the tournament, in my opinion.

Why would adding incentives cheapen a tournament?

It's either a route to the CL or more money if you want teams to take the FA Cup more seriously.

 

[rcoobc]

Why would adding incentives cheapen a tournament?

It's either a route to the CL or more money if you want teams to take the FA Cup more seriously.

Indeed. It's like saying the Premier League wouldn't be cheapened by taking all 4 CL places and putting them on the League Cup

 

[Sky1981]

If you have to play 4x qualifiers to join the CL is not due to FA cup or league cup. It's because you're too shit that you finished below the cut of automatic qualifier.

Yet somehow It's fa cup fault.

I swear the entitlement of some clubs

 

[rcoobc]

If you have to play 4x qualifiers to join the CL is not due to FA cup or league cup. It's because you're too shit that you finished below the cut of automatic qualifier.

Yet somehow It's fa cup fault.

I swear the entitlement of some clubs

He's talking about leagues where the winner has to go through qualifing rounds.

I believe he's Scottish, which certainly gives him more of a perspective on things.

And to be honest he's right, Scotland and few other nations need an automatic place. Celtic in the Champions League group stage is brilliant stuff. Maybe there can be some sort of mechanism to keep Rangers out though.

White text but I'm serious so it's in black

 

[Bobcat]

I like it.

The problem is that between Europe and everyone scrambling for top 4, the domestic cups dont get prioritized and this might solve it.

They should just scrap the League Cup though

 

[Sky1981]

He's talking about leagues where the winner has to go through qualifing rounds.

I believe he's Scottish, which certainly gives him more of a perspective on things.

Anbto be honest he's right, Scotland and few other nations need an automatic place. Celtic in the Champions League group stage is brilliant stuff. Maybe there can be some sort of mechanism to keep Rangers out though.

White text but I'm serious so it's in black

Oh. Yeah. I agree. But it's a catch 22. You dont want Belarusian league winner automatic spot, no offence but it's understandable. It's also understandable you dont want top 4 of england doesnt make the cut.

That's why i dont blame the UEFA. It's not an easy situation. To maintain fairness at the same time common sense.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I disagree with the OP.

The big prize at the end of the FA Cup is that you win the FA Cup, one of the historically most important cup tournaments in the world.

It's a shame that the biggest clubs, and to be honest some fans, don't see that as prestigious enough anymore.

But I don't think the solution is to add further incentives. That would just cheapen the tournament further and act as an admission that the trophy itself is not enough.

It's the same with the Europa League. The last time we won it, you could easily argue that the true prize was the Champions League ticket rather than the trophy. That lessens the tournament, in my opinion.

good post. Completely agree. The FA Cup is special, and it’s a shame so many fans don see that - it’s a great competition, not just the final but the whole competition, the chance for a non league team to make a run etc.

spot on about the Europa League. It’s a competition that’s been poked and prodded to try and make it work. The fact teams drop into it after failing in the CL lessons it’s value massively.

united gave up in the league the year we won it. I don’t think we would have done that with any other manager. Jose thought he was being clever as usual.

no prestige in the EL, the prize is the CL.

 

[largelyworried]

Having a Champions League place for the FA Cup would be transformational for English football I think. Suddenly every club from the mid-table of the Prem right down to the mid-level of the Championship would, with the right draw, have a puncher's chance of getting into the Champions League. That would become one damn hard fought competition and very few teams wouldn't take it seriously. Indeed, for everyone not in a title race or a relegation battle, the Cup would arguably be bigger than the league. If you're Aston Villa or Crystal Palace, unlikely to get relegated and unlikely to get into Europe, the Cup would be the focus of your season.

This is similar to how it was when I was a kid. The league was always the highest benchmark of quality, but in terms of what got the biggest number of fans excited, the Cup was arguably the bigger deal. Only 2 or 3 teams were ever likely to win the league each year, but lots of teams had a shout in the Cup, which meant that the excitement spread a lot further. I dont think a CL spot alone would change things back that far, but it would sure improve things.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Good idea.

Remove the league cup, and make the FA cup and 4th place finishers battle it out for the CL place via a play-off. Would remove the pointless league cup, and give the FA cup more importance.

 

[RUCK4444]

Having a Champions League place for the FA Cup would be transformational for English football I think. Suddenly every club from the mid-table of the Prem right down to the mid-level of the Championship would, with the right draw, have a puncher's chance of getting into the Champions League. That would become one damn hard fought competition and very few teams wouldn't take it seriously. Indeed, for everyone not in a title race or a relegation battle, the Cup would arguably be bigger than the league. If you're Aston Villa or Crystal Palace, unlikely to get relegated and unlikely to get into Europe, the Cup would be the focus of your season.

This is similar to how it was when I was a kid. The league was always the highest benchmark of quality, but in terms of what got the biggest number of fans excited, the Cup was arguably the bigger deal. Only 2 or 3 teams were ever likely to win the league each year, but lots of teams had a shout in the Cup, which meant that the excitement spread a lot further. I dont think a CL spot alone would change things back that far, but it would sure improve things.

Disagree. All it would do increase Arsenals chances of CL football.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The big prize at the end of the FA Cup is that you win the FA Cup, one of the historically most important cup tournaments in the world.

It's a shame that the biggest clubs, and to be honest some fans, don't see that as prestigious enough anymore.

But I don't think the solution is to add further incentives. That would just cheapen the tournament further and act as an admission that the trophy itself is not enough.

Domestic cups have in general become devalued whether it be the FA cup of the Copa Del. But I think it's not a bad idea to both have the FA cup have its own importance and make it a doorway into the CL. I can't see it's relevance increasing as things stand. With the focus on Europe and elite club football, domestic cups are only losing ground.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Having said that the FA cup is also usually won by a top 6 club, so not sure there's as much unpredictability there either. Would just lead to the big clubs taking it more seriously and make it more of a contest, but wouldn't add anything to CL qualification in terms of the group contesting the birth in the CL.

 

[largelyworried]

Disagree. All it would do increase Arsenals chances of CL football.

You don't think mid-table teams would try harder to win the Cup?

 

[rcoobc]

You don't think mid-table teams would try harder to win the Cup?

Offside gave this example

They should definitely make the FA Cup a CL spot. People always say “well it would be ridiculous if Wigan had got in in 2013” but that season 7th placed Liverpool went out to Oldham with a weakened team. Would they have if a CL spot was up for grabs? Probably not.

And even if a small club wins the cup and gets into the CL it would be fairytale stuff that people love and change a club’s fortunes forever, same as when Leicester won the PL.

im sure there are numerous others.

 

[largelyworried]

Offside gave this example

im sure there are numerous others.

I don't follow your point there.

 

[rcoobc]

I don't follow your point there.

I'm agreeing with you. Mid table clubs would take it a lot more seriously with a potential CL place at the end

 

[RUCK4444]

You don't think mid-table teams would try harder to win the Cup?

They might but they know they will probably lose a final to a top 4-6 opponent so would be very hard for them to put all their eggs into that basket.

They would still, imo, rest players in cup fixtures to prioritise the league.

 

[largelyworried]

I'm agreeing with you. Mid table clubs would take it a lot more seriously with a potential CL place at the end

Apols, missed that a different poster replied earlier. Too early, send coffee.

They might but they know they will probably lose a final to a top 4-6 opponent so would be very hard for them to put all their eggs into that basket.

They would still, imo, rest players in cup fixtures to prioritise the league.

The idea that clubs like Villa or Everton are so passive that they'd just throw up their hands & give up at the mere thought of having to beat a club like Spurs or Chelsea in a one-off knockout match is totally unbelievable to be honest.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That wasn't the case for the first 40 years of the Leagues Cup's existence

Because the original idea for the league cup was a good one. It was essentially created because the PL equivalent at the time was losing popularity and a way to earn extra, much needed, income for clubs who dropped out of other cups.

I agree with OP. FA cup used to be so much more prestigious and the League Cup is to blame. All these footballing bodies need to accept the simple truth that more football isn’t the answer, there’s already too much.

Turn it into a milk cup, Olympic rules style, or bar anyone in Europe from plying in it to give smaller teams a better chance of silverware.

 

[RUCK4444]

Apols, missed that a different poster replied earlier. Too early, send coffee.



The idea that clubs like Villa or Everton are so passive that they'd just throw up their hands & give up at the mere thought of having to beat a club like Spurs or Chelsea in a one-off knockout match is totally unbelievable to be honest.

Not really, I mean that's exactly what happens right now.

When was the last unexpected winner of the fa cup? Wigan?

The teams your talking about do exactly this right now. Plus they don't have strong squads to cope with European football during a PL season.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ridiculous argument IMO.

You're suggesting someone that wins a domestic cup competition gets at least a play off place for the CL while actual champions of their leagues need to play 4 qualifiers.

Agreed, I find it ridiculous the amount of qualifiers the winners of our league have to play to even get into the Champions League. It really shouldn't have that name any more.

 

[littlepeasoup]

I guess you could argue that winning these type of competitions should be prize enough, but we all know the prestige of the cup competitions has fallen significantly. I've definitely been a proponent for a bigger carrot at the end of the FA cup journey to boost it. I'd be all for trying something like this.

 

[alexthelion]

Imo, the only way you get the FA Cup back to where it should be is to give it the 4th place CL spot.

 

[AnotherLondonManc]

Maybe it can't have a complete Champions League place - it is a cup competition after all. But maybe it could have a Champions League play-off place. Give both the 4th place Prem team and the FA Cup winners a play-off place so you don't need to "take" any new places from other countries. (One half place + one half place = one whole place).

A Champions League playoff spot does not equal half a place. You would have to imagine that in the majority of cases, it would result in another English team in the Champions League. Let's have a look at some of the teams that qualified out of the playoffs this season: Krasnodar, Midtjylland, Ferencvaros, Dynamo Kiev...

It would be a massive upset if any FA Cup winner lost to one of the above teams. What your suggestion does is all but guarantee an English side another spot, while denying another team the chance to compete. These teams reached the CL on merit and many leagues aren't even given a automatic CL spot. It wouldn't be fair to compromise these teams (and leagues) just to make your cup competition more exciting.

Furthermore, if the PL is given another spot, what's to stop La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc all demanding one more spot, consolidating Europe's premier competition within just a handful of countries. Granted, only teams from the top leagues in Europe ever really make it to the latter stages, but the revenue generated from Group stage matches means a lot to some of these teams and shouldn't be taken away because we're bored of the FA Cup

 

[Alex99]

A Champions League playoff spot does not equal half a place. You would have to imagine that in the majority of cases, it would result in another English team in the Champions League. Let's have a look at some of the teams that qualified out of the playoffs this season: Krasnodar, Midtjylland, Ferencvaros, Dynamo Kiev...

It would be a massive upset if any FA Cup winner lost to one of the above teams. What your suggestion does is all but guarantee an English side another spot, while denying another team the chance to compete. These teams reached the CL on merit and many leagues aren't even given a automatic CL spot. It wouldn't be fair to compromise these teams (and leagues) just to make your cup competition more exciting.

Furthermore, if the PL is given another spot, what's to stop La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc all demanding one more spot, consolidating Europe's premier competition within just a handful of countries. Granted, only teams from the top leagues in Europe ever really make it to the latter stages, but the revenue generated from Group stage matches means a lot to some of these teams and shouldn't be taken away because we're bored of the FA Cup

I don't think he means a place in the Champions League Play Offs, I think he means a play off between the FA Cup winner and the 4th placed team for the 4th English spot.

 

[AnotherLondonManc]

I don't think he means a place in the Champions League Play Offs, I think he means a play off between the FA Cup winner and the 4th placed team for the 4th English spot.

Ah, fair enough, I may have misunderstood that. I'm still not in favour of the plan however. Winning the FA Cup is ample reward in and of itself. And the lower teams that would benefit from such a change already play their best starting XI, especially from the quarter finals onwards. I think the quality of football in the FA Cup is understated in this thread. Utd always play a strong team in the FA Cup, and so do most prem sides.

Furthermore I think it would introduce a sense of injustice to whatever team finished 4th if they went on to lose this playoff. A PL season is played over 38 games and the team that finishes in the top 4 after all that deserves to be in the CL at the end of the season. It's our reward for consistanly having competitive teams in Europe. A Europa League spot is a fair reward to go along with the most prestigious cup England has to offer, and is already a great boost to any team outside of the 'top 6' both financially and competitively.

 

[largelyworried]

Not really, I mean that's exactly what happens right now.

When was the last unexpected winner of the fa cup? Wigan?

The teams your talking about do exactly this right now. Plus they don't have strong squads to cope with European football during a PL season.

Well, yes, because there's no Champions League on offer for the winner right now. But we're talking about what would happen if the winner got in. Isn't that the whole point in this thread?

 

[rcoobc]

A Champions League playoff spot does not equal half a place. You would have to imagine that in the majority of cases, it would result in another English team in the Champions League. Let's have a look at some of the teams that qualified out of the playoffs this season: Krasnodar, Midtjylland, Ferencvaros, Dynamo Kiev...

It would be a massive upset if any FA Cup winner lost to one of the above teams. What your suggestion does is all but guarantee an English side another spot, while denying another team the chance to compete. These teams reached the CL on merit and many leagues aren't even given a automatic CL spot. It wouldn't be fair to compromise these teams (and leagues) just to make your cup competition more exciting.

Furthermore, if the PL is given another spot, what's to stop La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc all demanding one more spot, consolidating Europe's premier competition within just a handful of countries. Granted, only teams from the top leagues in Europe ever really make it to the latter stages, but the revenue generated from Group stage matches means a lot to some of these teams and shouldn't be taken away because we're bored of the FA Cup

If you want to guarantee that half a place of half a place then do the playoff between 4th and FA cup winner.

I have no preference if it's 4th Vs fa cup winner or 4th Vs European side and also FA cup winner Vs European side. I see merits for both.

I agree with you that 4th place and fa cup winner would usually get through the playoff round giving England > 4 places... But then in actuality someone from the top 4 usually wins the cup anyway so the playoff isn't needed and 4th can go straight into the group stage

 

[AnotherLondonManc]

If you want to guarantee that half a place of half a place then do the playoff between 4th and FA cup winner.

I have no preference if it's 4th Vs fa cup winner or 4th Vs European side and also FA cup winner Vs European side. I see merits for both.

I agree with you that 4th place and fa cup winner would usually get through the playoff round giving England > 4 places... But then in actuality someone from the top 4 usually wins the cup anyway so the playoff isn't needed and 4th can go straight into the group stage

Last year Arsenal won the FA Cup. Do you think they deserved to be in the CL this season? If they went straight into the CL qualifiers and came up against, let's say, Molde - that that would be fair on the Norwegian side that finished first in the league (for the record, I have no idea who won the Norwegian league, it's just an example). And all this because English fans are bored of the FA Cup? Norwegians don't care about the FA Cup. How can we be so entitled as to demand another CL spot?

And let's be honest, Arsenal wouldn't have made many waves in the CL and would hardly have contributed to the quality of football in the competition. I feel as though you failed to address most of the points I made in my first post. It's simply not fair on other European sides who, by right, deserve a shot at the CL

 

[Cal?]

Last year Arsenal won the FA Cup. Do you think they deserved to be in the CL this season? If they went straight into the CL qualifiers and came up against, let's say, Molde - that that would be fair on the Norwegian side that finished first in the league (for the record, I have no idea who won the Norwegian league, it's just an example). And all this because English fans are bored of the FA Cup? Norwegians don't care about the FA Cup. How can we be so entitled as to demand another CL spot?

And let's be honest, Arsenal wouldn't have made many waves in the CL and would hardly have contributed to the quality of football in the competition. I feel as though you failed to address most of the points I made in my first post. It's simply not fair on other European sides who, by right, deserve a shot at the CL

Who is more deserving of a CL spot, the hypothetical FA Cup winner who actually has a realistic chance of progressing to the knockout stage, or the [insert smaller country] champions who finish rock bottom of their group?

An argument can be made for both sides, quality of the competition vs wider representation.

Same issue with the World Cup where plenty of better Europeans teams don't make it (when lesser AFC/CAF sides do due to the uneven allocation of places.

 

[Foxbatt]

I do get that but my point is, imagine someone has a crazy fairytale run a la Wigan years ago, they are then one game away from the CL group stages while champions of leagues you mentioned above have to navigate multiple qualifiers. It's not fair.

I think he meant the preliminary rounds. It is not a bad idea.

 

[rcoobc]

So, if this FA Cup win = CL playoff had gone ahead this year

Leicester have won the FA Cup meaning they are guaranteed at least playoff against 4th place at the of season. However if they stay in the top 4 they're place is guaranteed and no playoff takes place.

Chelsea lost the FA Cup Final, meaning if they finish 4th they'll have a playoff against Leicester, if Leicester finish outside the top 4. Chelsea really want to finish 3rd to guarantee that they'd avoid that.

Liverpool, same as Chelsea would play Leicester in the playoffs if they finish 4th and Leicester finish below 4th. If Liverpool finish 3rd, they're guaranteed s place, or if Leicester finish 3rd and Liverpool finish 4th then theyre guaranteed a place as well.

If the playoff happened, do the first leg on the Thursday before the CL finals and the 2nd leg Tues after.

Whether it's Liverpool - Leicester or Chelsea - Leicester in the playoff, or no playoff, I would argue that whoever qualifys would be stronger in thr CL than whoever doesn't. They've shown they can best them over two legs and/or in cup ties which is what the CL is about