Yea, and Modric
Angel Gomes Watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Yea, and Modric
He is a natural press resistant dlp, and we have no one in the squad really close to being that player imo. Possibly Mainoo as i think he has the tools to do it.
I am sure there would be enough minutes to hand out to the few quality options we have for midfield, Casemiro and Eriksen looks done at the highest level and i don`t think Collyer has the level of talent we would like for our midfield. Leaves us a bit short on options even with Gomes added to the team.
Looks like an absolute no brainer on a free.
In that deeper role he reminds me of Vitinha, not that much shorter than him as well. If he came back I imagine we'd have to pair him with Ugarte or get in a physical box to box midfielder with Kobbie being allowed to be in a more attacking 8/no 10 role. A Kobbie, Gomes, Ugarte midfield would be quite interesting. Not sure you could play a mid of Kobbie, Gomes and Bruno though.
Have always hoped to see Gomes in the first team since the academy days, but he is incompatible with the current setup. Maybe we get a new manager and lose Bruno one day - then it makes some sense.
You need at least one other defensive player next to him (as Rice was yesterday) or better two other CMFs close to him to bring the best out of his skillset. Our 'transition-based' approach just won't work.
In a match where you have 70% possession sure, he's great, but that's unlikely week-in, week-out in the prem, unless we switch our philosphy completely, and that raises questions about loads of other players.
You need at least one other defensive player next to him (as Rice was yesterday) or better two other CMFs close to him to bring the best out of his skillset. Our 'transition-based' approach just won't work.
In a match where you have 70% possession sure, he's great, but that's unlikely week-in, week-out in the prem, unless we switch our philosphy completely, and that raises questions about loads of other players.
He’d be a great pickup for any Premier League side. I think he could play any role in midfield given his ability on the ball. I can imagine him doing well at Brentford, though he can probably do better than going there.
His disguised passes through the lines are a joy to watch. Carrick was a master at them.
That was Finland, correct?
Anyway, a midfield trio including him and Mainoo would probably be the closest we'd get to actually controlling football games - if we were to switch to a possession side. We'd lose some creativity from Bruno, but we'd have more control - and Bruno probably has another 2-3 years left in him anyway. Would be an exciting midfield duo, with someone like Ugarte providing the protection.
I thought the consensus on here was that we needed both and the ongoing debate was what the more pressing issue is. I agree with you, in an ideal world, we'd brought in somebody who is of the rare breed that combines both but there aren't many out there. Given that Casemiro looked rather lost I think, it isn't a mistake per se to decide to go for the defensive capabilities first. Especially given that Mainoo is there for the 1st team while Casemiro looked rather cooked and on his way out of the 1st team. I see your point though, there is a strong claim for the player who is good at controlling games. And I mean, you mentioned Amrabat and he came here with the proposition of being exactly what you describe, a player with a very good passing range and formidable in defense. Didn't work out and I am not entirely sure, what ETHs ideas look like. Given that we now have De Ligt and Martinez and Yoro, there is a good chance, that he sees the controller role in those players. Not saying I agree, but I can see why he would think that.
We aren't turning ourselves into a more controlled unit by bringing just one player in. What we do see right now isn't just due to the inexistence of such a player. I wanted to see us bring more midfielders in, maybe Sekou will play a role this season, lets see. But I don't think labelling the Ugarte transfer as a wrong pick is a good idea. I also think there isn't a very strong case to make for ETH mostly looking for off-the-ball qualities in his midfielders.
There is only so much you can do in one transfer window. I see your point, relying on teenager is risky for us and for the players development as well. But not having good cover for Mainoo isn't a more damaging outlook as having no defensively capable midfielder except for aging Casemiro. Both things are concerning and I can see why people argue about what is more problematic but I don't think, one side has a substantially stronger case than the other.
The weight of passing is a thing of beauty
From watching him live in a brief cameo against Ireland, he’s certainly a unique player. So small but constantly moving and looking for the ball. And really good at that part of the game, as good as anyone you’ll see. He’s learnt how to deal with his lack of any physical presence with experience by being ultra alert and busy. I think him and Rice is as good a partnership as you can have in that he excels at Rice’s weaknesses and vice versa.
So good he dominated Greece while playing Finland.
He's out of contract at the end of season?
You can never take much notice of an international friendly game.
But sounds like he had a good couple of games so I'm happy for him.
But sounds like he had a good couple of games so I'm happy for him.
Yes
It’s a pivotal period in his career as he’s on course to be a full international now and if he’s to be a peer with those who start for England, he needs to get himself a considerably higher paying gig than Lille and face the testy waters of competition for places at the kind of clubs his teammates are at. If he’s good enough and confident enough people will soon stop talking about what he can’t do and will be all over what he can. When Verratti was at his best and gave a shit, he was one of the most coveted midfielders on the planet. He’s no taller than Gomes, imo, but it wasn’t at all prohibitive. I’m not saying they are equivalent skill level, but I am saying that moving up to the highest ranks means facing challenges for playing time and his Lille-esque free run jaunts are soon to be over no matter where he goes.
Of course, the season he goes on to have will determine his suitors, but if it’s at or better than last season, with the added exposure from now being a full international for England, it’s the big clubs and even giants that will be putting offers down, especially so with him being a free. I don’t know if he has any particular umbrage toward us for how he was treated or whether he’d find returning a triumph, but the personnel and tactical side and direct competition for playing time would be for him to assess vis-a-vis what he brings to the table. Right now we have nobody who can play from deep and instantly hit 30, 40 even 50 yard passes accurately and without a moment’s thought, for example, so he would have to look at what he offers (wherever he goes) against what he’s up against.
My feeling is that his competition isn’t even at the club yet (Wharton) and if we don’t go for who I think we will, we will be in the market for a DLP-esque player regardless. Funny thing is, if Gomes does go up a level this campaign, what he does is one of the most coveted skilsets in the game and that will pique the interest of clubs who are lacking in that attribute; he may have played a blinder going to Lille and leaving on a free.
Looked very good last night. An indictment of the previous ownership that he was allowed to leave for free.
It wasn’t their fault (for a change). 2 years they’d been offering new contracts but he turned them down because he knew that to progress he needed guaranteed first team football. So he made the choice. It wasn’t a case of the club giving him away
If he's so good, why haven't his current club either tied him down to a new contract, or sold him this summer for a huge fee, commensurate with his obvious abilities?
Fair. I feel like we could have loaned him more though to help him gain that experience. He got one to Boavista I think which was very random.
EDIT: No that was once he joined Lille even. So we never even loaned him once!
It’s not unusual for us to choose to not loan out our really top young talents. Mainoo an obvious example. We were probably aiming for Gomes to follow a similar pathway to first team football. He was expected to go on to great things from a very young age.
I think we wanted to keep a closer eye on his physical development, but I remember reading we were going to send him out on loan the season he left.
Yeah I can see that. We didn't give him much time from memory though. I do appreciate sometimes a player is strong-willed though and the club has no choice but to let them go if they won't sign a new deal.
He was denied loans the last two years of his contract, it's why he left.
First it was because he was told he was needed in the first team squad, which ended up resulting in nothing (personally I suspect he was only kept around in case of crazy injuries happening). Then, the last year he was denied loans because he didn't want to renew his contract, when his reason for not signing a contract was not getting either game time or a loan.
I think he probably could have got more minutes. But he’s tiny now and was even smaller then. So it was a big call to give him first team appearances at that age.
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So if he really wanted to stay at the club - and go on loan - he could have. Glad that’s cleared up.
EDIT: As confirmed by quote from player himself, a few posts after this one.
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He's always been a quality talent. Leaving the club should never have been an option for him.
Not sure why people are defending the club when this is another clear sign of the mismanagement during the Woodward/Murtough years.
Leaving the club is always an option for every young player.
You don't lose your best kids. That's just stupid.
Looks like they tried their best to keep him. Seems to be just something he felt he needed to do.
”It’s such a special club but I just wanted to be able to play and express myself,” he tells The Independent. “I was offered a great contract, I had all my family and friends around me, but I decided that I was willing to sacrifice that to pursue a different path. It’s hard to understand how difficult a decision that was. I’m still a United fan. I still watch every game now, whether it’s the first team or the U18s. I could have stayed and gone out on loan but it just felt like I needed a fresh start.”
Presumably because not every young player leaving a club represents gross mismanagement. Arsenal seem to be a fairly well fun club these days. They not only lost one of their most promising talents, they lost him to a direct rival. Sometimes shit happens.
It happens. To all clubs. And no, it isn’t always because the club has done something stupid.
Yep looks like the club tried they’re best to keep him but short if ole putting him in the first team rota, he had his mind set.
I think refusing to loan him in Ole's first year was a mistake that likely made up his mind about leaving.
It took me a bit to realize you're talking about Chido Obi-Martin. If he's that talented and left because they wouldn't promise him a clear path to the first team, it's also a mistake.
The difference is that he is lightweight on top of being short, I'm more concerned about that. People say the French league is as physical as the Prem, so maybe it's worth a punt bringing him back.
Think he could replace Eriksen in our squad.. Good player to control games, high volume passer who's homegrown as well. I see only upside, seeing that he's out of a contract soon at only 24 years old and experience gained.
It’s not a mistake if at this point in time, Arsenal think that a 17 year old is not ready for first team minutes. It may be another case of a kid thinking he’s further ahead than the club think. It happens
I very much agree on his skillset and I think he'd be a fantastic option as someone we could sign to give us what Eriksen gave us during his first six months at the club. I'm just aware of the fact that a lot of people want a lot more of that from whatever midfielder(s) we bring in.
Where we differ is that I really don't see Wharton joining us next summer. In fact I don't see him joining anyone next summer. The early signs suggest he'll have a (fair to expect) wobble this season. Palace is not only the right club for him to have that at, it's also a club that has proven to be very good at holding onto their assets when they want to. They sold Olise in the summer gone, sure, but that meant they were able to stand firm when Newcastle tried everything to get Guehi. Palace have other players they can still move for big money before they consider selling Wharton, who - for me - needs a bit of time there anyway before the big clubs will want to meet the asking price of a player they've not long let in the door.
My guesswork on Angel's stance towards us is largely based on this article. He talks a lot about how hard it was for him to leave, how he felt like he had to because he was just "there," and how much it meant when Boavista's coach outlined the importance he would have. I can't see any ill will, just a desire for clarity and assurances. These aren't always things you can get at a top club, but as you say if he goes up another level, maybe he can. But I do think he'd be happy to come back if and only if he got those things from us.
In terms of our own squad depth, maybe we're all just scarred by past injury crises but it should be perfectly acceptable - ideal, even - to go into a season with four good options for two deep midfield positions. Eriksen will likely be gone at the end of his contract, with Casemiro also looking like a strong possibility as things stand. That would leave Ugarte, Mainoo, and Collyer. It's very much up to the latter to take his chance this season and prove that he'd make a good option, but in the event that he does, would we really need to be signing two midfielders? Add Angel and you'd have four who have no serious injury concerns, are well away from any sort of predictable decline, and have a mix of skills that compliment each other. And all of them are great at retaining the ball and playing under pressure.
Personally I think that, even if two midfielders leave, we'll only sign the one. The question then becomes: are you gonna be okay if that one is Angel Gomes?
You've had such a weird chip on your shoulder about him since he left that I actually worry about your sanity should he return