Another boring one horse race

[Sarni]

I would say the lack of drama is more an issue of second placed teams giving up the chase or first place teams being ridiculously better than the rest that in that year rather than a case of lack of general competitiveness. We must remember that the league winner’s place is not the only area of competition. Top 4 conversions in the last 7 years of the premier league has always been a huge contest with as much uncertainty as possible about who will go through and who wouldn’t.

I think most fans would be worried if it was a case of one or two teams winning the league year in year out in those seven years. We’ve had 4 teams win the league in that period.

Top 4 is a crap excuse of a race for me. It’s virtually a bunch of teams playing for the privilege of getting knocked out before CL properly begins the following season, usually about Last 16 round. It reminds me of teams fighting for the last playoffs spot in the NBA to get annihilated by no. 1 seed. It may seem ‘exciting’ when it happens but when you look at the broader picture it’s just pointless. I do admit it’s slightly less pointless when a team like Leicester, West Ham or Everton are in it because it would actually be a big deal for them and their fan bases. But Chelsea, United, Spurs or Arsenal fighting for the magical top 4 is pure crap to me.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

City aren’t that far ahead. We should be right up there- ridiculous points dropped vs West Brom, Sheffield and Everton where we should have won, plus our horrendous start to the season.

We would be right up there, but our players aren’t mentally strong enough for a title challenge. Whenever we have a sniff of glory we always, always bottle it.

 

[Ludens the Red]

What do you propose?

I think a lot of fans and the board are quite happy for the club to finish top 4 every season, make a few cup runs and to have a good atmosphere around the club. With that in mind youd propose keeping it as it is. Stick with the coaches and Carry on the transfer policy we currently have, look to unearth gems and bringing in British talent.

If there’s a desire to compete for major trophies in the long run and compete with Man City then either the board back Ole big, outspend city and get him elite proven talent or they need to make the managerial change and bring in somebody better in the long run.

 

[Fox outside the box]

The only club who have spent more than us during this time are City. It’s tough to point fingers at Chelsea and talk about them being an oil club when we’ve spent more and have less to show for it. We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing the league to run away from us season after season.

I feel like a lot of people are missing this point. We've invested heavily, really heavily, it's just been poorly done or certain players didn't work out.

Di Maria for example, hindsight says it wad a terrible signing but if we'd won 'that' game against Leicester after he'd scored a stunner and everyone seemed to love him, and things worked out a little differently then he may still be with the club.

We haven't had a clear vision, so we've employed very different types of managers which led to our squad being a jumbled mess by the time Mourinho left.

What City have done is implement a superb infrastructure and bought very well. Yes they've spent a ton and people forget their dud buys but they've been shrewd in the sense that they have primarily bought players who are just below top tier but have the potential to become it. Players like Sterling, Aguero, Kompany, Bernardo Silva, Sane, Stones, Walker were all players that bad their best years ahead and the potential to go up a level. They've spread their money across lots of 40 - 60 million pound signings and as a result they have a really strong squad.

We have constantly been trying to build a competitive first 11, with little thought about the overall squad quality and we've gone big several times which has left us really relying on those signings having a huge impact and maintaining this.

I feel the Maguire deal is one we regret in hindsight. We very much had our focus on bringing him in and I understand there are several good reasons for this. Looking back though, we may have been better going for a 50 million main man and a 30 million squad addition.

It's all coulda, woulda, shoulda but it highlights the need to put in a proper structure and plan as well as maintain some consistency from a managerial and recruitment perspective.

We can moan about the Glazers and sure, we maybe coukd have spent even more money had we not been owned by them but I feel its a bit of a red herring or at least simply a seperate argument. The fact we could have spent more doesn't detract from the fact we've spent a billion pounds in around ten years, that's ALOT of investment and puts us second in the league in terms of spend. Yes, City have spent a few hundred million more I believe but when you look at their success over the last ten years compared to ours, I'd say they've over achieved compared to us if you're simply looking at spend vs success.

It's one of the reasons I want Ole to stay. Even if he isn't the long term right man, our squad development is miles better and if we need another year/18 months of building before then handing to 'the man', I'm cool with that.

Changing manager yet again just sets us back a year ad far as I'm concerned. Unless we happen to get someone in who has a similar approach to Solskjaer and just happens to want to keep the same squad and continue on a similar path when it corns to recruiting.

 

[Blueman]

So the argument in reality is City are winning the league too much its boring we shouldnt allow foriegn money into that club. When United won it 9 times out of the first 11 years or so that was ok because United did it with money that was their own which isnt boring? Thats about it isnt it?

Well its rubbish, it's to do with one thing - United had a good club setup with a very good manager. And now it is the same with City, everything else is just tribalism.

The money was there before Pep and we werent as hated as we are now, when Pep has gone (And you all know it) City will go back to pre 2015 days and the league will be back into the domain of the media backed/liked clubs that bring in the clicks....... Thats precisely why the Spanish/Italian/German leagues are so boring, they need a club to mix things up in those leagues, it's been much better and higher qualuity football in the last ten years

 

[Bearded One]

Top 4 is a crap excuse of a race for me. It’s virtually a bunch of teams playing for the privilege of getting knocked out before CL properly begins the following season, usually about Last 16 round. It reminds me of teams fighting for the last playoffs spot in the NBA to get annihilated by no. 1 seed. It may seem ‘exciting’ when it happens but when you look at the broader picture it’s just pointless. I do admit it’s slightly less pointless when a team like Leicester, West Ham or Everton are in it because it would actually be a big deal for them and their fan bases. But Chelsea, United, Spurs or Arsenal fighting for the magical top 4 is pure crap to me.

The profile of a title contest trumps that of a top four contest agreed but every team that have the means will fight to be in top four rather than not. Inability to predict who that will be is better than being able to predict the outcome. In any case I believe the level of competitiveness we have in the premier league is about the best you can get right now and so the appeal as well as the incomes are better for it.

 

[KwokSF]

City's superior spending power is a bit of a myth from the perspective of manchester united

The plain truth is, they put Soriano in charge of the club. United put Woodward in charge. There's the real difference

This needs to be quoted as many times as deluded United fans mention city and oil money.

Goodness I understand we are in redcafe forum but have some perspective, stop talking bitterly like we are burnley or sheffield United with tiny budgets looking enviously at the bigger clubs.

 

[Bearded One]

Yeah you're right it's incredibly tough. But that is the nature of sport. Somebody has to be but teams will still go through peaks and troughs. My argument is that city have bypassed other professional teams on that journey, stole the opportunity to win cups from teams that might otherwise have. Think of all the years moyes was rebuilding Everton. Most other times they'd have won an fa cup. Likewise Stoke. Think a Wigan fan would swap the fa cup win that day for winning a league cup the way City do? I very much doubt it. They're operating in a way that is delivering the exact results you'd expect. It's robotic, financial and soulless

Determining how a team should get funding and how they shouldn’t is tantamount to having an entitlement mentality. We ourselves were lucky that massive funds came to the league when we were doing well allowing us to establish a dynasty. You cannot expect everyone to follow the organic growth model if everyone didn’t start on the same footing. Teams like Real Madrid got state help to bounce back from a terrible state and even the likes of AC Milan were helped up by external funding after tough period.

As a United fan you probably think teams will be alright with securing the odd FA cup here and there while we dominate where it truly matters. But I put it to you that every rational club (Everton inclusive) will welcome the idea of having a leg up to boost their chances of winning the league and continuing to be in the conversation of league winners for the foreseeable future. If another club at their level or beneath them now wins this lottery, then hard luck. That’s just life, nobody owes you. Maybe you should have positioned yourself as a better option for the the investor?

Any club that feels hard done by another club getting a financial advantage is just bitter and are being hypocritical because they would welcome this advantage if it were them. The only situation where I’d see them as not hypocritical is if they had the opportunity of massive leg up but decided against it. Until I find that club, I wouldn’t take any claims from fans of not wanting this advantage as anything of note.

 

[SER19]

Any club that feels hard done by another club getting a financial advantage is just bitter and are being hypocritical because they would welcome this advantage if it were them. The only situation where I’d see them as not hypocritical is if they had the opportunity of massive leg up but decided against it. Until I find that club, I wouldn’t take any claims from fans of not wanting this advantage as anything of note.

This reductionism is why these conversations are largely a waste of time. My strong feeling is that should United be subject to a Saudi takeover there would be mass protests in the street. And even if they didn't, the advantage United gain over pretty every other club would still be unfair, regardless if fans grew accustomed to enjoying routine success and Celtic like points hauls. Probably no point going round in circles here, we clearly have two different viewpoints in interpreting City and PSG as credible clubs with success that should be admired, and that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion

 

[Paddy B]

In general it is teams with the biggest payroll that often win the title. This season United's spending is by far the highest with their players receiving approx. 176M. City and Liverpool are second and third on 136 and 135 respectively. Teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham are around 130M. Looking at these figures you would have to say that several teams are considerably underperforming this season.

 

[Starschnulpe]

In general it is teams with the biggest payroll that often win the title. This season United's spending is by far the highest with their players receiving approx. 176M. City and Liverpool are second and third on 136 and 135 respectively according to horsebetting.com. Teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham are around 130M. Looking at these figures you would have to say that several teams are considerably underperforming this season.

Well of course expensive players play extraordinary good but I have often seen that team play also plays a decisive role. If you take the FC Barcelona for example. They have many top players with a huge payroll but their teamplay is terrible at the moment and they lack good ideas when playing.

 

[Olecurls99]

I was quoting the other posters. I've misquoted you by mistake, sorry. As for Arteta... He has only managed to get the team he wanted in the middle of the season, with EMR and Saka coming into their own and we finally have a proper CAM in Odergard. Prior to that the Arsenal team is utterly devoid of any real attacking threat.



And it's drama for all the non-United fans.



Ole took over a squad that had one of the most expensive midfielders of all time in Pobga and plenty of expensive talents. Talents that you can afford to sell at a cost and still have money to spend on expensive players. But you guys wasted a lot of time and money chasing the wrong players as well.

You guys spent all summer chasing Sancho only to end up with no new RW. You spent decent money on VDB when there's no intention to play him at all.

You guys should have no effort going head to head against Man City every season. But the way you mismanaged recruitment is what is holding you guys back. And having a coach that relies on counter-attacking football is unlikely to win the title. It's not the mid 2000s anymore when Chelsea can 1-nil their victory to a title. Now any title winning team needs to be good at positional-attacking football to break down defense. When you guys finally have a coach that can implement good pressing football, then you might have a real chance of winning.

You have to agree that we're playing catch up on City and that's difficult when they're matching us for spending.
Also Ole 'relies' on counter attacking football because we're missing creative players that can break the deadlock. We're a lot better when Pogba plays.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We only have ourselves to blame. The form we have against the Top 6 is concerning from the point of view that if we want to become a better team and really compete in Europe, we need to do better. It's the games like the draws v Everton and West Brom, losses to Sheffield United and Palace that really are unacceptable if we want to be trying to win the league. See the game out v Everton, and perform anywhere near our best in those others you are looking at another 4 - 10 points in the league. Even the Leicester game I would argue we should be seeing out. The race really could be so much closer, and that's before looking at going to win the games v the Top 6.

 

[ray24]

You have to agree that we're playing catch up on City and that's difficult when they're matching us for spending.
Also Ole 'relies' on counter attacking football because we're missing creative players that can break the deadlock. We're a lot better when Pogba plays.

And the reason why you are playing catch up is because your recruitment is horrible in the last days of Ferguson's reign. You guys failed to find good midfielders for ages at a time where possession football is becoming more and more important.