[MadMike]

Its a team sport and the manager decides what is best for the team.

Initially Rashford and Martial were basically alternating, but Rashford has since pulled clearly ahead.

Lingard does not really play in the same position as Martial, and even if he is limited in talent, he makes up for it in effort and tries to do the right thing. Martial plays like his mind is elsewhere, playing in his own world. He gets the ball and runs at defenders until he loses the ball and then looks at the sky as if expecting some angel will come down and help him recover it.

I see Lingard running with the ball and losing it way WAY more than Martial. And like I said Martial has double the output, you can't brush that under the carpet. Also while Rashford alternated the LW initially with Martial, both Mkhi and Lingard got quite a few games in that position especially since Ibra's absences started (with his red card first, then his injury after his return).

Like you said, it's a team sport and the manager decides what's best for the team. I think the fact we're finishing the season 6th with the lowest goals scored than all other top 6 teams (and Bournemouth), is a clear indication for me that manager has made plenty of wrong choices, this one being one of them.

Feel free to disagree. But that's my opinion.

 

[Womp]

I have faith in him.

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Looks a completely different player this season. When he gets in those positions now he more often than not fluffs it.

 

[Adisa]

I wouldn't sell him but the problem is, he will be getting even less minutes next season with new players coming in. He could barely get a game this season, and he was not even in the squad many times. If you're loosing out to all of your competition even Lingard and Rooney sometimes, then what's gonna happen next season with possibly world class players to compete with?

Is he gonna be happy with this? I think not. Considering his talent he really should be somewhere where he will play. And I'm sure there will be interest from plenty of clubs. If he comes good at another club then he will surely be bought by a big club. If I was him I would surely choose to go somewhere where I can play rather then stay for another year with a manager who has no faith in me.

Who's to say he will carry this form into next season? He will be back for pre season barring any injury and he can have a fresh start. I can't see a Martial in form, being put on the bench.
And we haven't been linked with a LW.

 

[Adisa]

Looks a completely different player this season. When he gets in those positions now he more often than not fluffs it.

Yeah, his confidence is shot as a result, things aren't coming off. I am one of the few that have been encouraged by his recent displays. He's working very hard. At least, that will please Mourinho. Just needs a break and come back for pre season fresh and ready to go.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I don't remember anybody complaining when he was given the number in the first place.

Like i said it's not about the number but the message it sends to Martial. And I'm not saying it was the sole reason for Martials poor form this season, but it's not exactly worked out well has it. The 35 year old is gone and the Martial is a shadow of the player he was last year when he was full of confidence. Good management that!

The message is clear - that he is not entitled to anything and everything has to be earned!

 

[pocco]

He's too talented not to get going again. I think he's slowly but surely found his rythm a bit mite in recent weeks but it's coincided with him playing inn weakened teams that are playing on the back foot.

 

[Womp]

Yeah, his confidence is shot as a result, things aren't coming off. I am one of the few that have been encouraged by his recent displays. He's working very hard. At least, that will please Mourinho. Just needs a break and come back for pre season fresh and ready to go.

Yea, this past season and a half is hopefully just a write-off for him. Ended the season badly, was bad at the Euros, then that thing with his Girlfriend/Wife - whatever she is. I'm a huge fan of Martial's ability, sky's the limit for the kid, but a lot of players have had more talent and have had nothing careers. The true make-up of a World Class talent is overcoming adversity, here's hoping Martial is one that can.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Yeah, his confidence is shot as a result, things aren't coming off. I am one of the few that have been encouraged by his recent displays. He's working very hard. At least, that will please Mourinho. Just needs a break and come back for pre season fresh and ready to go.

Its easy to be effective when you are a new player. After a season, other teams have had more time and video to study and prepare against you. He is not the first player to struggle so. It is what separates the truly great ones.

 

[MadMike]

I wouldn't sell him but the problem is, he will be getting even less minutes next season with new players coming in. He could barely get a game this season, and he was not even in the squad many times. If you're loosing out to all of your competition even Lingard and Rooney sometimes, then what's gonna happen next season with possibly world class players to compete with?

Is he gonna be happy with this? I think not. Considering his talent he really should be somewhere where he will play. And I'm sure there will be interest from plenty of clubs. If he comes good at another club then he will surely be bought by a big club. If I was him I would surely choose to go somewhere where I can play rather then stay for another year with a manager who has no faith in me.

To be honest, I would do the same in Martial's shoes. KDB, Lukaku, Mata are all cases in point that there's life after Mourinho. Plenty of it.

The way Mourinho plays his wide forwards, with a focus to be chasing the ball and to be marking the fullbacks first and foremost, Martial will never shine. Too much energy expended in defence, too much rigidity in the shape required.

If I supported Martial I'd say he needs to cut and run. But I support United so I don't want to lose a player of his potential. But if Mourinho has another LW in mind, then it might work out best for both parties if he goes.

 

[pocco]

Its easy to be effective when you are a new player. After a season, other teams have had more time and video to study and prepare against you. He is not the first player to struggle so. It is what separates the truly great ones.

No it isn't.

 

[R.E.D.]

When he is as good as Ibra, he can also pick his shirt number.

Everyone seems to be more concerned with marketing their brand these days than actually playing the game.

The thing is Ibra doesn't give a shit about his shirt number. Everywhere he's been he's had different numbers. When he signed the contract there was a video you could clearly see Ibra asks what number he will wear and the guy told him 8 and said oh cool or something like that. It was the club that took the number away from him for marketing reason. These kind of thing would never happenwhen SAF was here, because the club was built with royalty and respect towards each other. Even when Scholes came back he didn't take his number back from Ashley Young. And I don't know why people keep talking about this and blaming him for it. When did he ever say something about it? His fecking agent said he was mad for like two days and then he got over it. Like every other human being with emotion.

I come to this thread like every once in a month and there's always a discussion about this.

 

[Janson]

At the point Zlatan was given the number, absolutely none of that had happened and Martial was the shining hope for the future of our attack. Nobody knows for sure but I am of the opinion that it probably did effect him and that was probably why his agent wasn't happy about it at the time.

No matter which way you look at it, it was a shit thing for us to do and nobody will convince me otherwise. If people want to argue that it's only a shirt number, then why didn't Zlatan take a different one? It's not the fact that he had to take a different number but the message it sends to Martial. Not to mention the time and money he'd just put into marketing himself with the number 9.

It had to have effected him but never to such an extent to make him underperform the way he did. To me that's delusional to believe something like that. Especially since he underperformed for France as well and the breakup no doubt affected him to.

I think the main reason was simply that he didn't fit with the new players and system. He was used to getting the ball to feet under Lvg but now his flaws when it comes to movement and workrate have been exposed in Mourinho's system, where Ibra and Pogba are running things.
He should have tried to conform to fit in, instead he kept on as usual even if it wasn't working.

I think he has a lot of things to improve in his game if he want's to get somewhere.

 

[SNes]

He's just a typical young player struggling for consistent performances but they'll come.

 

[breakout67]

Absolutely hilarious saying we should look after one talented youngster more than another. We're not Real Madrid, we're a club built on nurturing young talents, no matter where they come from. It's what has brought us so much success. The price tag has feck all to do with Martial, what matters is that he chose to come and play for us.

In these situations I always think "what would Fergie have done?" The answer isn't bend over backwards for a 35 year old at the expense of an extremely talented youngster that we are trying to push to become a mainstay in our team for years to come.

Martial is not just a talented youngster, he has almost 4 seasons of regular football under his belt. He is closer to his potential than Rashford is and so will be treated accordingly. Rashford can do absolutely nothing of note next season and that is fine, whereas Martial needs to make good strides next season or questions will be asked. He will not be expected to score 25 goals and assists he will be expected to improve on this season, that is fair and reasonable.

The only people that are trying to push Martial to be a mainstay in our team are his fanboys who got excited over his first season where we played dire football and he was the focal point of the attack. Fergie would have never bought Martial in the first place forget about making him our main attacking threat; because he knows how to handle transfers much better than LVG, and he does not like spending lots of money on young talent. He bought Nani for 17m, 5m for Hernandez, 12m for smalling, 15m for Zaha, the list goes on.

Rooney and Ronaldo had to improve their performances year on year for them to be the 1st team choice. We had Saha, Smith and Giggs who would take the pressure off them so they could develop. But apparently Fergie would have favoured Martial over a proven goalscorer
after one good season despite not even matching the quality of Rooney or Ronaldo at the same age. You need to be able to consistently perform before you are made the main attacking threat of our team.

 

[Janson]

Who's to say he will carry this form into next season? He will be back for pre season barring any injury and he can have a fresh start. I can't see a Martial in form, being put on the bench.
And we haven't been linked with a LW.

If he does improve then great. But personally after a whole year like this, I find it hard to believe he will suddenly start playing much better. And preseason won't be enough for Mourinho to evaluate him properly I think. But given how out of favor he has been the whole season, it will not be easy for him to get game time.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

No it isn't.

and what do you think is the origin of the second season syndrome?

 

[jungledrums]

I have faith in him.

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Fecking hell I love our Tony. If anyone doesn't support this man, hang your head in shame.

 

[Terminator]

Fecking hell I love our Tony. If anyone doesn't support this man, hang your head in shame.

This. Some have very short memories these days.

 

[flappyjay]

I always find my self wondering do the coaches seat him down every now and then and show him what is wrong with his game, it's so frustrating seeing him just standing around when there is acres of space to run into. I believe if he would add movement to his game he would elevate himself to an important starter. Is he stubborn or is he stuck in his natural game which is dribbling past a few people before passing or shooting. Just imagine if he had Lingards movement.

 

[pocco]

and what do you think is the origin of the second season syndrome?

There are loads of players that don't set the world alight in their first season as they acclimatise to new leagues and teams. Look at Pogba. To say it's easy to perform straight away is just plain wrong.

And second season syndrome doesn't mean a player was just a flash in the pan as you made out. What you implied is that the great players perform from day one and never have a bad season. I'd love to know what you thought when we had a young Ronaldo coming through here.

 

[VanGaalEra]

I never said his price tag was his fault. Big clubs do not pay large amounts of money for youngsters, they develop their own youngsters. Martial and Luke Shaw are indicative of our structure as a club and that structure is one on it's last legs. Our academy doesn't produce top talent on a regular basis anymore, and this is because it hasn't got any investment in a long time. Our U-23s are getting relegated and is a team of 8-9 midfielders. Angel Gomes is the first top talent that our academy has produced in a long time (he isnt one of those players that comes here at 16 and is considered a youth product like Pogba, he is a local lad).

I would have much preferred if the money we spent on Martial and Luke Shaw was actually spent on our Academy so we could get players to play in those positions organically. That being said i have no inclination to throw Martial to the dogs, he is a young player and should be given time to develop as a squad player. But he is on less time than Rashford because he is an investment whereas Rashford didnt cost a penny.

Guess we should have never brought Ronaldo then, right?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

There are loads of players that don't set the world alight in their first season as they acclimatise to new leagues and teams. Look at Pogba. To say it's easy to perform straight away is just plain wrong.

And second season syndrome doesn't mean a player was just a flash in the pan as you made out. What you implied is that the great players perform from day one and never have a bad season. I'd love to know what you thought when we had a young Ronaldo coming through here.

Why are you extrapolating beyond what was said?

I said it is easy in the first season cos the opposition is less familiar with you. That is not the same as saying everyone performs better in their first season which you are claiming. The fact that someone has failed to achieve a result does not change the difficulty of the task.

Also if you are never able to perform as well after defenders become more familiar with your style and tendencies, then you are a flash in the pan. The great one do what they want to do even when you know what they are going to do.

 

[jungledrums]

Why are you extrapolating beyond what was said?

I said it is easy in the first season cos the opposition is less familiar with you. That is not the same as saying everyone performs better in their first season which you are claiming. The fact that someone has failed to achieve a result does not change the difficulty of the task.

Also if you are never able to perform as well after defenders become more familiar with your style and tendencies, then you are a flash in the pan. The great one do what they want to do even when you know what they are going to do.

So opposition teams have to wait until the end of the first season to magically know about a player? Not 5 games in, not half way through the season, not 35 games in, but ALWAYS at the end of the season? Just another of those lazy, baseless statements.

 

[sunama]

How about looking after your young players that have just been your best player the previous season and cost you £50 million instead of fecking them over for some mercenary who will only be around 2 years max? Why didn't Zlatan take Rooneys number, since that's the number he has had previously?

It was just an example of how shite we are run these days.

I realise that you are Martial fan, but we need players in our team who are going to win the league. I value league titles over everything else (including fanboy-ism).
If we have to sell my favourite player, to improve us....then so be it. Martial needs to prove himself and so far, he has had one very good season (not great, but very good) and one terrible season. Our LW needs to do far better or he should be replaced.

 

[RuudTom83]

The wide players at United need to spend the entire summer working on there delivery from wide areas.

They might all love to cut in and shoot but if that's all you do! it's easy to defend against.

If Martial can work on that side to his game he will find it much easier.

 

[jungledrums]

I realise that you are Martial fan, but we need players in our team who are going to win the league. I value league titles over everything else (including fanboy-ism).
If we have to sell my favourite player, to improve us....then so be it. Martial needs to prove himself and so far, he has had one very good season (not great, but very good) and one terrible season. Our LW needs to do far better or he should be replaced.

I agree he was terrible, but for a terrible season, to produce over 15 goals and assists combined, it shows you he has immense talent and it makes you wonder what he could do if he had a good season. A lot of ifs and buts, but he deserves the chance to thrive here. He's good enough to start every game for a title winning side; the challenge for him is to go and show that talent in its entirety.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

I have faith in him.

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Lots of kneejerk reactions in this thread, but that video shows how premature it is to say "wouldn't care if we sold him this summer." No footballer magically blossoms into a world beater in one season when they're as young as Martial. Hell, it took Neymar at least 2 years to look like he was going to live up to the hype and price tag at Barca. You have to grow into a system, learn the habits of your teammates (hard thing to do when there's so much turnover in the squad season after season), and hone your skills to fully utilize your natural talents. Tony's shown he can do tap into that, but he needs to apply more effort and consistency. It's not the first time young player has had to be given time to mature as he gets older. Hell, Danny Welbeck was given till he was 23 (or 24?) before he was shipped out, and Martial has shown a far higher ceiling than him thus far. He needs backing from the fans and the manager and he needs to work hard this off season to improve. Let's see how he comes along next year.

 

[MadMike]

I realise that you are Martial fan, but we need players in our team who are going to win the league. I value league titles over everything else (including fanboy-ism).
If we have to sell my favourite player, to improve us....then so be it. Martial needs to prove himself and so far, he has had one very good season (not great, but very good) and one terrible season. Our LW needs to do far better or he should be replaced.

The problem is that, from where I'm sitting, there's no evidence we'd be better off without. There certainly is absolutely no guarantee. On the contrary I've plenty of evidence from last season and small parts of this that, if Mou can coax more consistency out of Martial, we'd be sorted in that position for a decade.

For example Mkhi was brought in and he has played a fair few games as LW, especially in EL, and he has not been better than Martial either. Flashes of quality, like Martial, but also been fairly inconsistent despite being a mature 28yo.

Who's this player we're going to bring in to be a level above Martial? Douglas Costa that can't get a game for Bayern? Can we even attract a Neymar or Sanchez? Mertens and Griezmann have shown no better output than Martial when playing as LWers. Who's this gettable, silver bullet kind of guy?

 

[dirkey]

I've complained quite a lot about Martial this year. He has irritated me with his poor form, and I don't buy that it's down to the manager at all, as some would say. But it's madness to be happy if he's sold this year, or not care if he's sold, as some people have said. Even in a down year he has still produced a pretty good tally of goals and assists for a wide player. And that's without forcing himself into the side for a consistent run. The lad has so much ability. Hopefully a nice summer off and a good pre-season and he comes back ready to roll along with whatever new additions we make. Such an exciting, talented player when on song.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

So opposition teams have to wait until the end of the first season to magically know about a player? Not 5 games in, not half way through the season, not 35 games in, but ALWAYS at the end of the season? Just another of those lazy, baseless statements.

Yes you can do things in-season but the off season and pre-season offers more time to gather more data, analyze, and, implement needed changes in system, tactics or personnel. Thus a new season usually sees marked changes in teams and players from the previous.

This is well known in sports science and management and across all sports, but if you think it is baseless, thats fine as well

 

[jungledrums]

Yes you can do things in-season but the off season and pre-season offers more time to gather more data, analyze, and, implement needed changes in system, tactics or personnel. Thus a new season usually sees marked changes in teams and players from the previous.

This is well known in sports science and management and across all sports, but if you think it is baseless, thats fine as well

No, what's baseless is that he can look a world beater for a season, but then get 'found out' in the off season, and turn up next season looking like a pub player, purely because of other teams working out how to play against him. It's also ridiculous to say that all the major analysis has to be done during the off season. If his game was so easy to neutralise after some tweaking and analysing, why didn't it happen earlier? Conversely, if what you say is true, how has he (at times) managed to look class again in moments this season?
He has been poor, don't get me wrong, but It's not down to him being found out - he's just been bang average. He's been in and out of the team, he had a difficult summer, plus all the well publicised issues with his ex-partner. However, he's still shown flashes of class. Inconsistency is to be expected of someone his age/stage. He'll come good, either with us or, regrettably, with another club.

 

[pocco]

Why are you extrapolating beyond what was said?

I said it is easy in the first season cos the opposition is less familiar with you. That is not the same as saying everyone performs better in their first season which you are claiming. The fact that someone has failed to achieve a result does not change the difficulty of the task.

Also if you are never able to perform as well after defenders become more familiar with your style and tendencies, then you are a flash in the pan. The great one do what they want to do even when you know what they are going to do.

I'm not, you said something about players not sustaining it after the first season and thats what great players do. You weren't talking about second season syndrome.

What your saying works both ways. You're saying it's easier in your first season because the opposition don't know you, but that is such a massive generalisation. There have been many players at United alone that were poor early on and just got better with time. Quite often players need to acclimatise to the league and they don't have that 'easy' first season that you are on about because they're not used to the speed or physicality of it.

 

[Damien]

I have no problem with top clubs buying young players and developing them. The difference is that a youngster was our most expensive signing by £20 million (hency why i said large amounts of money). It is not sustainable to spend so much on youngsters, especially when there are many youngster on a similar level to Martial. Madrid have Carvajal, Vasquez, Nacho in and around the 1st team, Barcelona have just gone through a period where many of their youth products were in the first team, the same can be said about Bayern Munich (Schweinsteiger, Muller, Kroos).

When you spend £50 million on a youngster he has a larger expectation to produce than a player that cost nothing. I do not think it is right because players develop at their own speed, but football is a business and that is the reality of balancing the books. And nowhere have i said that Martial shouldnt be given time to develop, just that he will be given less time because that is the what makes the most sense business wise.

I want Martial to develop and flourish at United, but his price tag means he will be given less time by the club. I would give him as much time as needed within reason, but I am a fan not running the club's finances.

We paid £36m for Martial initially. It is the add-on clauses that could take the transfer to over £50m, in which case he'd have been fully worth it as the last clause is for if he makes it onto the list of Ballon d'Or nominees, which shows how much Monaco rated him as a player.

I think this is the way a lot of transfers for young players will be conducted in future. In summer, Bayern signed Renato Sanches on a deal which could rise to €80m (source: Benfica) if all clauses come to fruition.

 

[edcunited1878]

His performances have indicated that Mourinho doesn't trust him enough to start him consistently over Lingard. But then Lingard usually plays on the right. Rashford assumed the left forward position, usually Martial's position, when Zlatan was center forward. Then you include Mkhitaryan or Mata, who becomes the odd man out?

With Zlatan out, Rashford usually has been a center forward and even at times Martial. Then Lingard would take another wide position followed by Mkhitaryan and Mata.

At the end of the day, Martial needs to be more consistent and has to do something(s) better in order to gain Mourinho's full trust, which obviously is below his teammates.

 

[Jaxa]

He just looks shot of confidence and he really is the kind of player who needs it to perform well, those story's of Fergie treating players differently because they didnt react well to certain critiscm, i feel Mourinho needs to approach Martial in a similar way to really get the best out of him

 

[GledTheRed]

That effort earlier was shite

 

[Dante]

I really want to believe this kid will become world class, but my faith is waning.

 

[AR87]

The amount of times he's been available in space only for our midfielders to not take a chance to play it into space to him has been criminal

 

[Dante]

The number of times he's run down blind alleys and lost the ball unnecessarily is even more so.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Doing his best to not even make the bench in Stockholm. Really is a shocking performance by him.