[Stacks]

I'm going to address this post but as a heads up, I think almost every word of it is wrong.

1. Martial has excellent hold up play generally, he hit a short period of bad form in January. I would say Martial's hold up play is superior to Ighalo's as he has more creativity and imagination.

2. If you don't think that Martial creates space for players, how do you think Rashford went from scoring feck all goals while Martial was injured to becoming one of the leagues top scorers when he was back? Wake up.

3. I agree he could get into the box more to attack crosses but it is a 2 way street, the crossers should be trying to find him with cut backs far more often. Martial also spends an awful lot of time linking up play from deep in a similar fashion to Firmino (who I assume is a proper centre forward in your eyes).

Ighalo does possess a number of the qualities that Martial lacks but that is the purpose of having a squad and not just a first XI and Martial has shown great improvement this season and having Ighalo around will only accelerate that.

How can you possibly compare Martial to Chicharito? Honestly, I was expecting a much better effort. "Your" opinion of Martial is so far from accurate that I'm convinced we must be watching different players.

Point number 1 suggests you have low standards. RVN Drogba had hold up play streets ahead of Martial and you label his excellent?
Point 2 I agree with you.
Point 3 I agree with you but also he should alternate his runs a bit more too and have more aggression/desire to get those easy goals and tap ins.
I also agree with the Ighalo/Martial point about having different types of forwards. When Ighalo started "showing us what we been missing" it became Ighalo vs Martial for some who wanted Anthony pushed back out wide. There is room for both of them at this party

 

[Adisa]

Bizarre this thread is so active.

 

[Handré1990]

I mean, I've always liked Rashford. But like everybody at Manchester United post Sir Alex, he's gone through a non linear development curve with good phases where he excelled and people predictably lauded his talent and also significant spells when he's struggled and people predictably wrote him off as a mediocre talent. Same with Martial as many others. You could argue that Rashford was more of a favourite of Mourinho's and hence got more games to show his qualities but I don't really think he did well under Mourinho. I'm not sure what's the statistics say but 2019 was his improvement year for me. Before that it was fits and starts. Similar to Martial just with a better relationship with Jose as he runs and works harder

The bolded part, why the need to even write it? That is literally exactly what I implied, two shit periods every season. If you can’t see that Martial was a different beast at 19 than Rashford I don’t know what good discussing this further might do. My point is (and was) Martial was a much more complete player at 19 (his debut season) than Rashford. So it is a lot easier to spot Rashford’s development. Never did I say it was linear.

I also find it strange that it is forgotten how important Rashford were in our EL win after Zlatan’s injury. So no, I don’t agree he didn’t do well under Mourinho, but like any player that age, he was inconsistent. If I still haven’t managed to get my point across, this is it; since they both made their debut for the club, Rashford has shown a hell of a lot more development.

 

[Bebestation]

Point number 1 suggests you have low standards. RVN Drogba had hold up play streets ahead of Martial and you label his excellent?
Point 2 I agree with you.
Point 3 I agree with you but also he should alternate his runs a bit more too and have more aggression/desire to get those easy goals and tap ins.
I also agree with the Ighalo/Martial point about having different types of forwards. When Ighalo started "showing us what we been missing" it became Ighalo vs Martial for some who wanted Anthony pushed back out wide. There is room for both of them at this party

Target men. Martial plays in a completely different areas to where they play. Anelka now to Drogba and RVN.

 

[Stacks]

Target men. Martial plays in a completely different areas to where they play. Anelka now to Drogba and RVN.

He compared their hold up play. Where does Martial play? CM?
Guess we cannot compare Messi dribbling to Pogba because they occupy different areas of the pitch....

 

[Bebestation]

He compared their hold up play. Where does Martial play? CM?
Guess we cannot compare Messi dribbling to Pogba because they occupy different areas of the pitch....

Compare Messi's hold up play to Drogba's. One doesn't need to play that way because one is a completely different style of striker to another. One has different dribbling abilities to the other again because they are different style of striker and yet Martial is consistently being compared to the RVN, the Haalands, by the fans who see a problem with him nearly every single game - and then theres the rest of us who compare him to a player like Firmino who clearly needed a system before becoming a useful player for Liverpool & that's because Martial was great during the 2 months when there was a sign of a system with players like Rashford and Greenwood around him and hes stepping up to cover up being the single striker when no one else is in the squad of a similar mould as well.

But okay..as I said before Messi, Totti, Firmino, Martial, RVN and Drogba - 2 of them looks awkward in that list because they don't have the ability to drop deep, dribble, make a pass, take first touches or flicks or shoot. Martial can grow in to that but RVN and Drogba cant play false9 but okay Bring Pogba in to it now, or Haaland or whoever's next.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Compare Messi's hold up play to Drogba's. One doesn't need to play that way because one is a completely different style of striker to another. One has different dribbling abilities to the other again because they are different style of striker and yet Martial is consistently being compared to the RVN, the Haalands, by the fans who see a problem with him nearly every single game - and then theres the rest of us who compare him to a player like Firmino who clearly needed a system before becoming a useful player for Liverpool & that's because Martial was great during the 2 months when there was a sign of a system with players like Rashford and Greenwood around him and hes stepping up to cover up being the single striker when no one else is in the squad as well.

But okay..Bring Pogba in to it now.

Ok, so why aren't you calling out the person saying Martial has excellent hold up play? You're essentially arguing with someone that's agreeing with you because you view it as anti Martial. Unless you are saying Martial has excellent hold up play but you don't want it compared with players who had excellent hold up play because it doesn't fit your own definition of Martial.

 

[Stacks]

Compare Messi's hold up play to Drogba's. One doesn't need to play that way because one is a completely different style of striker to another. One has different dribbling abilities to the other again because they are different style of striker and yet Martial is consistently being compared to the RVN, the Haalands, by the fans who see a problem with him nearly every single game - and then theres the rest of us who compare him to a player like Firmino who clearly needed a system before becoming a useful player for Liverpool & that's because Martial was great during the 2 months when there was a sign of a system with players like Rashford and Greenwood around him and hes stepping up to cover up being the single striker when no one else is in the squad of a similar mould as well.

But okay..as I said before Messi, Totti, Firmino, Martial, RVN and Drogba - 2 of them looks awkward in that list because they don't have the ability to drop deep, dribble, make a pass, take first touches or flicks or shoot. Martial can grow in to that but RVN and Drogba cant play false9 but okay Bring Pogba in to it now, or Haaland or whoever's next.

Have your ever seen Drogba or RVN play? They can do all of that. Neither Drogba nor RVN can do flicks, drop deep, make a pass, play one touch, shoot or dribble?

You see Martial like a Totti or Messi type e.g. False 9? Rooney even? Why he have like 3 assists in 24 league matches and 5 in 34? Firmino is not like Totti or Messi either. He is more a defensive forward whose role has been to press and turn over possession in the opposition half. He had more tackles than most Liverpool defenders one season?!? I don't see Martial ever growing into a Totti, Messi or Rooney. If you believe this then fine, but you will be disappointed.

 

[Kappa123]

Firmino? How pretentious to compare our Martial to the best false 9. Firmino at Hoffenheim was better than Martial is currently.

Martial fans will always see whatever they want. Like some have said, it's just a pushback against all the "haters". But to compare his style with Firmino who is actually world class at all these things Martial has only shown in fits and spurts... absurd

 

[AltiUn]

Firmino? How pretentious to compare our Martial to the best false 9. Firmino at Hoffenheim was better than Martial is currently.

Martial fans will always see whatever they want. Like some have said, it's just a pushback against all the "haters". But to compare his style with Firmino who is actually world class at all these things Martial has only shown in fits and spurts... absurd

The reverse is also very clearly true, people go to great lengths to discredit Martial in any way possible. Both sides are as bad as each other, It'd take a stunning lack of self-awareness not to realise this.

 

[Raven]

Point number 1 suggests you have low standards. RVN Drogba had hold up play streets ahead of Martial and you label his excellent?
Point 2 I agree with you.
Point 3 I agree with you but also he should alternate his runs a bit more too and have more aggression/desire to get those easy goals and tap ins.
I also agree with the Ighalo/Martial point about having different types of forwards. When Ighalo started "showing us what we been missing" it became Ighalo vs Martial for some who wanted Anthony pushed back out wide. There is room for both of them at this party

On the first point, my standards were certainly lowered by big lumbering Lukaku but Martial's hold up play this season bar a few weeks in January has been excellent, some of the best in the league I would say.

That seems to be the only point we actually disagree on here.

 

[Raven]

Firmino? How pretentious to compare our Martial to the best false 9. Firmino at Hoffenheim was better than Martial is currently.

Martial fans will always see whatever they want. Like some have said, it's just a pushback against all the "haters". But to compare his style with Firmino who is actually world class at all these things Martial has only shown in fits and spurts... absurd

Do you not get bored?

Have you seen the team around Firmino?

 

[Bebestation]

Have your ever seen Drogba or RVN play? They can do all of that. Neither Drogba nor RVN can do flicks, drop deep, make a pass, play one touch, shoot or dribble?

You see Martial like a Totti or Messi type e.g. False 9? Rooney even? Why he have like 3 assists in 24 league matches and 5 in 34? Firmino is not like Totti or Messi either. He is more a defensive forward whose role has been to press and turn over possession in the opposition half. He had more tackles than most Liverpool defenders one season?!? I don't see Martial ever growing into a Totti, Messi or Rooney. If you believe this then fine, but you will be disappointed.

Because we played false 9 formation only for 2 months, only with one forward on the left and Daniel James who couldn't shoot for 6 months on the right. Soon as Rashford became injur5we stopped playing False 9 and Martial became our main attacking threat and not a false 9.

And no Van nistelrooy's and Drogbas dribbling skills are no where near Martials.

And that fine, no one is saying Martial is going to play football exactly like Messi or Firmino, but they clearly have similar qualities in the way they play football than the way a striker like Haaland of RVN does to Martial and this becomes even more obvious to see when Ole plays a false 9 formation with 2 wide attackers and martial as a false 9.

It don't see how it make sense to play Rashford and Greenwood out wide without a player like Martial in the middle if he wasnt playing false 9, whilst he was so clearly dropping deep and trying to link up play and it was something that Ole has been working on for God damn ages and has been reported for ages.


Look at this from last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma.../man-utd-solskjaer-jesse-lingard-15739241.amp

Lingard false 9 with Sanchez wide left and Lukaku wide right. Left footed right winger and right footed left winger.


https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...t-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-learned-from-liverpool

"Playing in the “Roberto Firmino role,” Martial’s primary job isn’t to get on the end of crosses and lead the team in scoring; he’s the first defender, the leader of the press. In possession he has to drop deep, hold up play, and create space for the other forwards.

But there’s still one big difference between the two teams (and note: for this comparison we are not comparing the three players and their skill sets. We’re just comparing the differences in how the three play).

Liverpool’s front three consists of Firmino flanked by Sadio Mane and Mohamed Salah, two players who are more “wide forwards” than wingers. The right-footed Mane plays on the left with the left-footed Salah playing on the right. Naturally they both like to cut inside.

For United, Martial is typically flanked by Marcus Rashford and Daniel James. Rashford is more of a wide forward, a right footed player who likes to cut inside, but James, when playing down the right, likes to stay wide as a winger."

Firmino? How pretentious to compare our Martial to the best false 9. Firmino at Hoffenheim was better than Martial is currently.

Martial fans will always see whatever they want. Like some have said, it's just a pushback against all the "haters". But to compare his style with Firmino who is actually world class at all these things Martial has only shown in fits and spurts... absurd

Just pay attention to the football a bit and try not be associated with this guy

 

[Foxbatt]

I remember seeing an interview by Berbatov regarding the same issue of the crosses and why he hangs back. He said he eventually told the other players to pull the ball back to him because it's easier for him to score when the ball is pulled back instead of the ball being so close to the keeper and into the 6 yard box. So the players started to pull it back for him and he kept scoring.
If Martial wants the ball pulled back then they should pull back for him. The important thing is to score goals and not how and where you score the goals from.

 

[Kappa123]

Do you not get bored?

Have you seen the team around Firmino?

Firmino was literally a better player in the Bundesliga than Martial is now. Hoffenheim were not world-beaters when he played there, that was to come a bit later, but he shone brighter than the rest and looked absolutely world-class even then.

 

[arthurka]

Do you not get bored?

Have you seen the team around Firmino?

At Hoffenheim?
The thing is most pundits, his national team manager and many on here don't like his effort and attitude that is also because most know how good he is when he is bothered. The Martial FC crew seem not be bothered when he looks like shit and isn't bothered because he might actually score a worldy that seems to erase how bad he was until that goal. Vs city he wasn't really good at all until he got that goal he might actually have been the worst player on the pitch until that.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The reverse is also very clearly true, people go to great lengths to discredit Martial in any way possible. Both sides are as bad as each other, It'd take a stunning lack of self-awareness not to realise this.

Do you not get bored?

Have you seen the team around Firmino?

He's not a United fan.

 

[Raven]

Firmino was literally a better player in the Bundesliga than Martial is now. Hoffenheim were not world-beaters when he played there, that was to come a bit later, but he shone brighter than the rest and looked absolutely world-class even then.

I take it you watched him religiously at Hoffenheim?

 

[UncleBob]

At Hoffenheim?
The thing is most pundits, his national team manager and many on here don't like his effort and attitude that is also because most know how good he is when he is bothered. The Martial FC crew seem not be bothered when he looks like shit and isn't bothered because he might actually score a worldy that seems to erase how bad he was until that goal. Vs city he wasn't really good at all until he got that goal he might actually have been the worst player on the pitch until that.

 

[Raven]

At Hoffenheim?
The thing is most pundits, his national team manager and many on here don't like his effort and attitude that is also because most know how good he is when he is bothered. The Martial FC crew seem not be bothered when he looks like shit and isn't bothered because he might actually score a worldy that seems to erase how bad he was until that goal. Vs city he wasn't really good at all until he got that goal he might actually have been the worst player on the pitch until that.

Did you watch him at Hoffenheim?

The only manager I care about has him as one his star men. And he is currently filling that role nicely and has been key to our up turn in form.

 

[AR87]

Firmino was literally a better player in the Bundesliga than Martial is now. Hoffenheim were not world-beaters when he played there, that was to come a bit later, but he shone brighter than the rest and looked absolutely world-class even then.

Sure he was pal.

League appearances only:

Firmino age 19-22: 35 goals, 24 assists, 155 matches played, 143 starts, 12,368 minutes played

Martial age 19-22: 34 goals, 16 assists, 113 matches played, 83 starts, 7,392 minutes played

Yes, I'm sure he was so much better at Hoffenheim.

 

[hmchan]

Ok, so why aren't you calling out the person saying Martial has excellent hold up play? You're essentially arguing with someone that's agreeing with you because you view it as anti Martial. Unless you are saying Martial has excellent hold up play but you don't want it compared with players who had excellent hold up play because it doesn't fit your own definition of Martial.

The whole "different styles of strikers" thing is nothing more than an attempted delusion. All types of strikers (except poachers which don't even exist anymore) need to participate in hold up play nowadays, regardless you are a complete forward like Aguero, Suarez and Kane, a target man like Carroll, or a false nine like Benzema and Firmino.

Presenting it in another extreme, it's just like all goalkeepers have to catch high balls. No matter you are a shotstopper, a sweeper keeper, or a ball playing keeper, you still need to deal with crosses. It's basically the nature of the position. If you fail to catch high balls, no matter how many saves you make, how many balls you sweep, how many long passes you make, you just can't become a top goalkeeper.

There's a general misconception that hold up play is a responsibility strictly for physical players (that's why Drogba is kept being mentioned), but essentially it's not. Strong players use their body while smaller players use their skills and techniques, but ultimately the idea is to protect the ball up front and wait for support. It's also funny to see someone using Messi as an example because imo he does hold up play pretty well. If Martial could acquire half of Messi's hold up play ability, I'll take it all day long.

 

[hmchan]

I remember seeing an interview by Berbatov regarding the same issue of the crosses and why he hangs back. He said he eventually told the other players to pull the ball back to him because it's easier for him to score when the ball is pulled back instead of the ball being so close to the keeper and into the 6 yard box. So the players started to pull it back for him and he kept scoring.
If Martial wants the ball pulled back then they should pull back for him. The important thing is to score goals and not how and where you score the goals from.

In fact I really don't care whether Martial wants the ball to be floated in or pulled back. I don't care whether he scores or not from crosses either. The point I tried to make is that he is inactive and unprepared when the ball is in wide position, and he is unable to provide an option to the wide attacker. On many occassions, he is just hiding behind the defender. This can be clearly seen from the clip I posted in the previous page. Many argue that Martial doesn't get the support he needs (which is partially true), but it's also a striker's responsibility to take the initiative and be active to create chances for himself and his teammates.

Again, I emphasize that I don't think he lacks the desire. I think he is just confused and unsure about what position to take up, and he definitely needs to gain more experience to improve his understanding in the game. As stated in #5028, I'll give him all the time he needs, but we have to reconsider our choices in the long run if little progress is seen.

 

[Bebestation]

The whole "different styles of strikers" thing is nothing more than an attempted delusion. All types of strikers (except poachers which don't even exist anymore) need to participate in hold up play nowadays, regardless you are a complete forward like Aguero, Suarez and Kane, a target man like Carroll, or a false nine like Benzema and Firmino.

Presenting it in another extreme, it's just like all goalkeepers have to catch high balls. No matter you are a shotstopper, a sweeper keeper, or a ball playing keeper, you still need to deal with crosses. It's basically the nature of the position. If you fail to catch high balls, no matter how many saves you make, how many balls you sweep, how many long passes you make, you just can't become a top goalkeeper.

There's a general misconception that hold up play is a responsibility strictly for physical players (that's why Drogba is kept being mentioned), but essentially it's not. Strong players use their body while smaller players use their skills and techniques, but ultimately the idea is to protect the ball up front and wait for support. It's also funny to see someone using Messi as an example because imo he does hold up play pretty well. If Martial could acquire half of Messi's hold up play ability, I'll take it all day long.

Okay dokie then a ball playing defender doesn't exist because everyone should be able to pass? Dribble to beat a press? I don't think so.

Ultimately the first touch is just one skill of a striker & as you rightfully say - every striker has, because if they don't then they simply aren't a professional footballer but it's the utilisations of their skills and where they use it and for what purpose that makes a player - not a single skill.


Another video that focus alot more on Martial and him playing deeper and passing and dribbling. First touches is something people agreed were great during whilst Rashford was playing and ever since he was injured people seem to think Martial is rubbish because he struggles playing all the time as a lone striker, which is fair because that's not his role in my opinion and in such a video you can see what he wants to do and where he finds himself earlier on in the attack.

Different types of strikers exist just as much as different type of defenders and midfielders exists.

 

[Foxbatt]

In fact I really don't care whether Martial wants the ball to be floated in or pulled back. I don't care whether he scores or not from crosses either. The point I tried to make is that he is inactive and unprepared when the ball is in wide position, and he is unable to provide an option to the wide attacker. On many occassions, he is just hiding behind the defender. This can be clearly seen from the clip I posted in the previous page. Many argue that Martial doesn't get the support he needs (which is partially true), but it's also a striker's responsibility to take the initiative and be active to create chances for himself and his teammates.

Again, I emphasize that I don't think he lacks the desire. I think he is just confused and unsure about what position to take up, and he definitely needs to gain more experience to improve his understanding in the game. As stated in #5028, I'll give him all the time he needs, but we have to reconsider our choices in the long run if little progress is seen.

You may not care and it's doesn't matter if you care or not. What matters is what the manager wants and what Martial wants. If he wants the ball to be pulled back then others better pull it back unless Ole tells them otherwise. The fact Ole keeps playing Martial up there is that he is happy with Martial.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The whole "different styles of strikers" thing is nothing more than an attempted delusion. All types of strikers (except poachers which don't even exist anymore) need to participate in hold up play nowadays, regardless you are a complete forward like Aguero, Suarez and Kane, a target man like Carroll, or a false nine like Benzema and Firmino.

Presenting it in another extreme, it's just like all goalkeepers have to catch high balls. No matter you are a shotstopper, a sweeper keeper, or a ball playing keeper, you still need to deal with crosses. It's basically the nature of the position. If you fail to catch high balls, no matter how many saves you make, how many balls you sweep, how many long passes you make, you just can't become a top goalkeeper.

There's a general misconception that hold up play is a responsibility strictly for physical players (that's why Drogba is kept being mentioned), but essentially it's not. Strong players use their body while smaller players use their skills and techniques, but ultimately the idea is to protect the ball up front and wait for support. It's also funny to see someone using Messi as an example because imo he does hold up play pretty well. If Martial could acquire half of Messi's hold up play ability, I'll take it all day long.

I was just amused that he chose to argue the point that Martial's hold up play isn't as good as RVN/Drogba with the argument that he's not that kind of striker. Which is another way of saying that his hold up play isn't as good as RVN/Drogba. So if he thinks he isn't that kind of striker, why not challenge the notion that Martial's hold up play is excellent? If he thinks his hold up play is excellent then why go off on one about being a different type of striker? It just looked like he took the side of the guy who was more "pro Martial" despite the point seemingly being that he agreed with the other guy.

As I said, it's fascinating in here.

 

[VP89]

Except it's not being unnecessarily defensive. It's calling out bullshit which clearly is bullshit.

It's not entirely bullshit, because Martial has had patchy form where he's either very good or pretty anonymous and mediocre. His natural talent is one thing, but the consistency on the pitch is another.

You may be tired and worn out of expecting a 24 year old to be top class who isn't yet. But he's undeniably a very good footballer.

No one is expecting him to be world class. He's just in a position for a giant club where inconsistency is rarely forgiven. He's a very good talent but that doesn't mean he hasn't had patches of poor displays that we just ignore.

How is stating Martial to be a "bang average" or "mediocre" footballer a valid opinion? There was no legitimate reasoning.

The reasoning is that he has had mediocre performances that compliment the very good ones. His inconsistency is still a big downfall of his game, and he's running out of excuses at 24. Clearly, not according to @Yagami below who thinks its down to lack of service (guess we have to add that to "he's on the LW it's not his position", "Jose played him wrong", "He was injured" and "he needs Rashford" to the ever growing list of excuses when he's playing poorly.

Because you're still banging on about him not being Sergio Aguero. Yes he's not an elite CF. We get it. But he is a very good footballer. Hopefully he takes another step up becuase, you know, 24 year olds can do that. But if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's average or shit or some other standard we can just make up because as children we didn't get the candy we wanted.

I named 5-6 strikers in my post, 2-3 from teams below us, 1 fighting relegation as strikers capable of more consistent displays than him this season. And you chose to isolate Augero? Also no one said Martial is shite. For what it's worth I don't think he's .just mediocre either but I'm not going to say an opinion is incorrect about him being mediocre for us, when he has actually had quite a few mediocre displays. Talent is one thing, what you do week on week on the pitch is another.

The only times he hasn't performed this season is when we've had no Rashford, and vice versa. When they've both had each other - as well as Fernandes in Martial's case - they've both been consistently good.

I disagree - He has had some matches in individual displays where he's anonymous when we've had a full team before too.

As for your age comment, I COMPLETELY disagree. When Tevez joined he was around the 23-25 age range, and whilst I was always a fan, he wasn't half the player he was at 26 and over for City and Juventus. So much so that some United fans weren't bothered about City signing him. Players develop at different rates, and this is Martial's FIRST season consistently playing as a CF. After 2 and a half years of being misused by a toxic manager, too.

Lets not get into this. Tevez for us far better than Martial in almost every aspect. Hunger, workrate, shooting, physicality, movement, consistency in performance form match-to-match, you name it.
Your excuse here: first full season as CF.

Unlike all of them, this is not only his first full season at CF, he's had next to zero service for a lot of his games yet has still managed to score out of nothing in a lot of them. The games where he's played with players with actual quality, which hasn't been that often this season, he's delivered more often than not.

Your excuse here: no service.

You say that his general play, movement and instinct all go off for long patches in games, but you fail to mention that, again, that coincides with him getting no service, no support up front, and, like all players, yes, inconsistency on his behalf, which all the other forwards you mention suffer from as well.. Anyone of those other strikers, bar probably Aguero, would struggle here under the circumstances, too. It's why Ole was desperate to get some attacking support in January.

Your excuse again - zero service. This is just getting tiresome. I like you, I and many others have seen every match of ours this season. I'm referring to games where Martial is often flat footed, failing to make runs, failing to get near post, dropping deep far too often, etc. This is feck all to do with service and everything to do with stamping authority on to the game.

Whilst making all of these statements I want to make it crystal clear that Martial 1) is an extremely talented player, 2) on his day can be unplayable, but 3) his average performances are still too frequent for my liking, and that's why I can understand posters saying he's not a top player.

 

[hmchan]

Okay dokie then a ball playing defender doesn't exist because everyone should be able to pass? Dribble to beat a press? I don't think so.

Ultimately the first touch is just one skill of a striker & as you rightfully say - every striker has, because if they don't then they simply aren't a professional footballer but it's the utilisations of their skills and where they use it and for what purpose that makes a player - not a single skill.


Another video that focus alot more on Martial and him playing deeper and passing and dribbling. First touches is something people agreed were great during whilst Rashford was playing and ever since he was injured people seem to think Martial is rubbish because he struggles playing all the time as a lone striker, which is fair because that's not his role in my opinion and in such a video you can see what he wants to do and where he finds himself earlier on in the attack.

Different types of strikers exist just as much as different type of defenders and midfielders exists.

It's pretty obvious that you don't even understand what I mean. Different types of strikers do exist, but they share some of the responsibilities and hold up play is one of them.

Similarly, ball playing defenders does exist, as well as no-nonsense center backs and sweeper, but they all need to defend well to become a top defender. This is the responsibility they share.

You may not care and it's doesn't matter if you care or not. What matters is what the manager wants and what Martial wants. If he wants the ball to be pulled back then others better pull it back unless Ole tells them otherwise. The fact Ole keeps playing Martial up there is that he is happy with Martial.

Ole keeps playing Lingard and Pereira for most of the season, is he happy with them? I don't think so, he just has had no choice until the recruitment of Bruno.

As I have repeated again and again, Martial would have all the time and chances he needs to improve. There are many more positions with higher priority we have to sign.

But when we complete building our squad maybe a year or two later, and Martial still hasn't shown significant improvement in the areas I have mentioned, then his position is really endangered. That's not what any of us would like to see, not even me - a so-called anti-Martial fan.

From the way Ole keeps complimenting on what Ighalo offers, I sense his frustration on why Martial can't offer the same, who clearly has higher potential and technical ability.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Ole keeps playing Lingard and Pereira for most of the season, is he happy with them? I don't think so, he just has had no choice until the recruitment of Bruno.

From the way Ole keeps complimenting on what Ighalo offers, I sense his frustration on why Martial can't offer the same, who clearly has higher potential and technical ability.

I think these two points are going to be very interesting for the future. We clearly wanted Haaland and would he have been coming in to play second fiddle? We've been linked to Martinez, Kane and Aubameyang. Ighalo has clearly made a big impact, even in the City game when he came on he still managed to provide something we'd been missing for most of the second half. The talk of Solksjaer believing in Martial feel to me like statements made in a vacuum, he's had basically no competition for the starting spot much like Lingard and Pereira had.

 

[Raven]

I think these two points are going to be very interesting for the future. We clearly wanted Haaland and would he have been coming in to play second fiddle? We've been linked to Martinez, Kane and Aubameyang. Ighalo has clearly made a big impact, even in the City game when he came on he still managed to provide something we'd been missing for most of the second half. The talk of Solksjaer believing in Martial feel to me like statements made in a vacuum, he's had basically no competition for the starting spot much like Lingard and Pereira had.

We're linked to pretty much every player under the sun. The Haaland situation was interesting because we can't be sure what Ole's plans were for him. My belief is that Ole would have played him as kind of a right forward in similar fashion to Rashford on the other side. It's also great to have more than one option up top. My last comment on the Haaland thing is that I'd imagine Ole thought him too big a talent to miss out on.

 

[Art Vandelay]

We're linked to pretty much every player under the sun. The Haaland situation was interesting because we can't be sure what Ole's plans were for him. My belief is that Ole would have played him as kind of a right forward in similar fashion to Rashford on the other side. It's also great to have more than one option up top. My last comment on the Haaland thing is that I'd imagine Ole thought him too big a talent to miss out on.

I agree, I just feel that people are misconstruing our lack of options as total belief in Martial. If as people claim he's a system player, is it a system we play? Not all that often. You have someone posting almost every page about how he links with Rashford and Greenwood either side of him, blaming James and Mata for his problems. Greenwood barely starts as he's too young and not ready. If that's the case, would it not be easier to replace the one player that only suits certain systems and players with someone more rounded? Sir Alex got rid of RVN, one of our best ever strikers because he didn't suit the system he wanted. Solskjaer has had no real option to do that with Martial, he's had to play him. I'm just saying the talk of Ole believing him could look very silly in the future if we bring in a natural striker that bumps him down the pecking order.

I'm not saying Ole doesn't believe in him or he needs sold. Although I do believe we need to upgrade in the striker position and to me it's a higher priority than most people seem to realise. A right winger alone won't be enough of an upgrade in our attack to get to the very top. I'm just saying there's no evidence Ole believes in him or the system that suits him given he's had no other choice for the majority of the season. His idea was to play Rashford there ahead of him last season until that didn't work out.

 

[arthurka]

Did you watch him at Hoffenheim?

The only manager I care about has him as one his star men. And he is currently filling that role nicely and has been key to our up turn in form.

Yes as a matter of fact I did as the Bundesliga is my go to league as I lived there for years and played for SC Freiburg's youth teams king time ago. He was fantastic there.
To say that Martial has been key for our upturn is naive. Defense, midfield and Bruno are a huge part in our upturn but I agree he has played a significant part in it. Not here to bash Martial but how he is immune to critique really pisses me off.

 

[AR87]

I agree, I just feel that people are misconstruing our lack of options as total belief in Martial.

Ole played under Ferguson who almost always had a stable of 4 striker options which he experienced. I'm sure he wants there to be more internal competition in the squad for the position, and I imagine he believes sooner or later Greenwood will present such competition. That said, he came into the season with the plan that Martial, not Rashford, would lead the line for his version of United. That's a strong endorsement of a player.

I imagine Ole doesn't live in a world of absolutes where if Martial isn't "the answer" he needs to be replaced and sold. He probably views Martial as a highly talented and skilled forward, who fits his style of play and can be part of the overall solution in elevating the club back into contention domestically and in Europe. That wouldn't preclude him from buying a top young striker like Haaland, but it also doesn't mean he doesn't have strong belief in Martial's ability to be part of his long-term vision at United.

 

[Stacks]

Because we played false 9 formation only for 2 months, only with one forward on the left and Daniel James who couldn't shoot for 6 months on the right. Soon as Rashford became injur5we stopped playing False 9 and Martial became our main attacking threat and not a false 9.

And no Van nistelrooy's and Drogbas dribbling skills are no where near Martials.

And that fine, no one is saying Martial is going to play football exactly like Messi or Firmino, but they clearly have similar qualities in the way they play football than the way a striker like Haaland of RVN does to Martial and this becomes even more obvious to see when Ole plays a false 9 formation with 2 wide attackers and martial as a false 9.

It don't see how it make sense to play Rashford and Greenwood out wide without a player like Martial in the middle if he wasnt playing false 9, whilst he was so clearly dropping deep and trying to link up play and it was something that Ole has been working on for God damn ages and has been reported for ages.


Look at this from last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma.../man-utd-solskjaer-jesse-lingard-15739241.amp

Lingard false 9 with Sanchez wide left and Lukaku wide right. Left footed right winger and right footed left winger.


https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...t-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-learned-from-liverpool

"Playing in the “Roberto Firmino role,” Martial’s primary job isn’t to get on the end of crosses and lead the team in scoring; he’s the first defender, the leader of the press. In possession he has to drop deep, hold up play, and create space for the other forwards.

But there’s still one big difference between the two teams (and note: for this comparison we are not comparing the three players and their skill sets. We’re just comparing the differences in how the three play).

Liverpool’s front three consists of Firmino flanked by Sadio Mane and Mohamed Salah, two players who are more “wide forwards” than wingers. The right-footed Mane plays on the left with the left-footed Salah playing on the right. Naturally they both like to cut inside.

For United, Martial is typically flanked by Marcus Rashford and Daniel James. Rashford is more of a wide forward, a right footed player who likes to cut inside, but James, when playing down the right, likes to stay wide as a winger."




Just pay attention to the football a bit and try not be associated with this guy

Maybe not Drogba but Van Nistelrooy.............

I agree with the 2nd bolded bit.

I'm not sure I agree with the guys assessment. Suarez and top 9's play number 9, scored bucket loads, drops deep and created loads for inverted forwards or any other forwards he played with be it Liverpool or Barcelona. Firmino is virtually one of few 9's who don't score many goals. It works for him because of his high energy approach exemplified by his high turnover of possession. For me, any 9 bar a poacher has to drop deep and create opporuntities or space for their team mates especially playing upfront by themselves. its standard part of the position IMO, not exclusive to the mythical false 9.

Ok, so why aren't you calling out the person saying Martial has excellent hold up play? You're essentially arguing with someone that's agreeing with you because you view it as anti Martial. Unless you are saying Martial has excellent hold up play but you don't want it compared with players who had excellent hold up play because it doesn't fit your own definition of Martial.

Martial plays in the Martial role. It's called number Martial. Now as only Martial can play the Martial role, he does it perfectly because only a Martial can play like Martial in the Martial role. No aspect of his play can be compared with any other forward in the history of the game because they don't play in the Martial role and only a Martial can play like Martial in the Martial role. Get it now?

 

[Stacks]

The whole "different styles of strikers" thing is nothing more than an attempted delusion. All types of strikers (except poachers which don't even exist anymore) need to participate in hold up play nowadays, regardless you are a complete forward like Aguero, Suarez and Kane, a target man like Carroll, or a false nine like Benzema and Firmino.

Presenting it in another extreme, it's just like all goalkeepers have to catch high balls. No matter you are a shotstopper, a sweeper keeper, or a ball playing keeper, you still need to deal with crosses. It's basically the nature of the position. If you fail to catch high balls, no matter how many saves you make, how many balls you sweep, how many long passes you make, you just can't become a top goalkeeper.

There's a general misconception that hold up play is a responsibility strictly for physical players (that's why Drogba is kept being mentioned), but essentially it's not. Strong players use their body while smaller players use their skills and techniques, but ultimately the idea is to protect the ball up front and wait for support. It's also funny to see someone using Messi as an example because imo he does hold up play pretty well. If Martial could acquire half of Messi's hold up play ability, I'll take it all day long.

Agree wholeheartedly. Its standard for CF to drop deep and do some knitting, bring others into play and create space and chances for others. if you cannot do this you are fairly limited IMO.

 

[Sayros]

Sure he was pal.

League appearances only:

Firmino age 19-22: 35 goals, 24 assists, 155 matches played, 143 starts, 12,368 minutes played

Martial age 19-22: 34 goals, 16 assists, 113 matches played, 83 starts, 7,392 minutes played

Yes, I'm sure he was so much better at Hoffenheim.

It's so nice when you have stats which are facts and have no opinion to expose those who have opinions they try to pass off as facts.

 

[Kappa123]

Those Firmino stats don't hold up since he played in midfield at Hoffenheim. It's nice to have context as well

 

[Raven]

Yes as a matter of fact I did as the Bundesliga is my go to league as I lived there for years and played for SC Freiburg's youth teams king time ago. He was fantastic there.
To say that Martial has been key for our upturn is naive. Defense, midfield and Bruno are a huge part in our upturn but I agree he has played a significant part in it. Not here to bash Martial but how he is immune to critique really pisses me off.

And do you agree with the other poster who labelled him as world class in his time in Germany?

Martial absolutely has been a key figure in our upturn in form. If he wasn't banging in the goals, we don't win enough games for an upturn.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Ole played under Ferguson who almost always had a stable of 4 striker options which he experienced. I'm sure he wants there to be more internal competition in the squad for the position, and I imagine he believes sooner or later Greenwood will present such competition. That said, he came into the season with the plan that Martial, not Rashford, would lead the line for his version of United. That's a strong endorsement of a player.

I imagine Ole doesn't live in a world of absolutes where if Martial isn't "the answer" he needs to be replaced and sold. He probably views Martial as a highly talented and skilled forward, who fits his style of play and can be part of the overall solution in elevating the club back into contention domestically and in Europe. That wouldn't preclude him from buying a top young striker like Haaland, but it also doesn't mean he doesn't have strong belief in Martial's ability to be part of his long-term vision at United.

Ole talked about Rashford leading the line and being our CF last season. This season he had no one else to try there but Martial after we failed to replace Lukaku. One man's glowing endorsement is another man's complete lack of other options. Do you think he wanted to start the season with the forward line we had? He's talked up Lingard too. I'm not saying he definitely doesn't believe in him, I'm saying the people saying that he definitely does could be in for a wake up call if and when he gets other options.

Martial plays in the Martial role. It's called number Martial. Now as only Martial can play the Martial role, he does it perfectly because only a Martial can play like Martial in the Martial role. No aspect of his play can be compared with any other forward in the history of the game because they don't play in the Martial role and only a Martial can play like Martial in the Martial role. Get it now?

You forgot the loop hole where Cruyff or Messi can be chucked in there as some sort of mitigating factor. Firmino can be used, but only in the context of him having Salah and Mane.

 

[AR87]

Ole talked about Rashford leading the line and being our CF last season. This season he had no one else to try there but Martial after we failed to replace Lukaku. One man's glowing endorsement is another man's complete lack of other options. Do you think he wanted to start the season with the forward line we had? He's talked up Lingard too. I'm not saying he definitely doesn't believe in him, I'm saying the people saying that he definitely does could be in for a wake up call if and when he gets other options.

No, he didn't want to start with the forward line he had, but I do think he was completely comfortable with Martial leading the line.

I don't think Ole sees Martial as a definite, nailed on starting XI striker in his long-term vision. I do believe he wants him as part of a rotation of strikers. He wants competition for those spots and I don't think he'd promise Martial or anybody we brought in to challenge him, a starting role.

I think there are two extremes in this thread where he's either a world-beater or bang average who needs replacing. Imo the truth lies in between and that's how I feel Ole sees it as well.