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2019-20 Performances


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Isotope

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You're right that actions speak louder than words, especially in Ole's case.

Looking at his actions, he made space for Martial to be first-choice this season and played him over Rashford in that position ever since the beginning of preseason. Come the January window, he wasn't after a first-choice striker the same way he was after a first-choice AM. Until Rashford's injury, he'd wrap Martial in cotton wool once matches were won, to be sure he didn't get injured. Those actions tell me that at least for now, he does rate Martial highly.

What formed your opinion that he may not rate him that highly?
"Ole Gunnar Solskjaer has admitted he craves a forward that “wants to break their nose” to score a goal after Manchester United crashed out of the Carabao Cup despite a 1-0 victory at Manchester City."
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-united-transfer-news-striker-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-man-city-a9309056.html

Do you think Martial is this type of striker?
 

Santoryo

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How could anyone watch us this season and conclude that Ole doesn't rate Martial :lol:

He's been wrapping him in cotton every chance he gets to have him available for every possible important games. Ole willingly went in the season with Martial as his main striker. Ole looking to bring in another striker stemmed mostly from the fact that when Martial was injured we were short in that area so he logically figured that he'd need an extra striker because Martial being out for about 2 months showed him how important it was for him to add reinforcement there.

Anyone even as much as thinking Ole doesn't rate Martial is clearly deluding himself. I mean the man is a key player in Ole's team and plan which is why I keep chuckling when I see some claiming that Ole will look to bring in another striker next season. Some people conflating what they wish for with what Ole plans and intend to do which is clearly to continue with Martial going forward.
 

Art Vandelay

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IIRC, had we gotten Haaland we'd have had to forfeit Bruno, so we'd still be starved of chances in the final 3rd. In addition to this, you have to remember that usually with Pereira or Lingard playing, we'd need Martial to feed the ball to those who can make a cut-back, James especially.

In essence, the whole dynamic would be shifted if Haaland came in, and I can't predict exactly how it would have gone.



I understand what you're saying about everyone being under scrutiny for the long term, but you demonstrated with your list that you agree there is a group of players who Ole clearly rates even long term. You made exceptions for those players, but to my mind, there's little difference in their treatment and Martial's. And Ole didn't sign those players so theoretically they should be as expendable as the rest. Performance-wise as well, nothing separating them.

So what's the difference between Rashford, De Gea, and Pogba, and Martial, that leads you to believe he's not part of the list?
I don't recall that being a situation that was ever confirmed. We tried for Haaland and spent a ridiculous amount of time haggling for Bruno. It seems clear we wanted both given we signed Bruno and a striker anyway.

James was still making the cutbacks when Martial was injured, Rashford was not making the runs either.

The fact he started with Rashford as the main man then gave him the left wing position when that didn't work out. Martial has not always been in when we had the Lukaku and Sanchez options while Rashford has. Again, I'm not saying that it's definitely the case. I'm just saying the people claiming the opposite is the case are wilfully ignoring the fact Ole has no other options and like us being completely under powered up front is some sort of plan to benefit their favourite player.
 

OldTrevil

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I think it's pretty apparent how much Ole rates Martial, I'm not sure where people are getting any other idea.
Delusions fueled by the false narratives about the guy, what can you do.

I can't wait for the top class glancing headers on bald Martial :D
 

Santoryo

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Delusions fueled by the false narratives about the guy, what can you do.

I can't wait for the top class glancing headers on bald Martial :D
Also fueled by irrational hatred for the guy by some lots.
 

Art Vandelay

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How could anyone watch us this season and conclude that Ole doesn't rate Martial :lol:

He's been wrapping him in cotton every chance he gets to have him available for every possible important games. Ole willingly went in the season with Martial as his main striker. Ole looking to bring in another striker stemmed mostly from the fact that when Martial was injured we were short in that area so he logically figured that he'd need an extra striker because Martial being out for about 2 months showed him how important it was for him to add reinforcement there.

Anyone even as much as thinking Ole doesn't rate Martial is clearly deluding himself. I mean the man is a key player in Ole's team and plan which is why I keep chuckling when I see some claiming that Ole will look to bring in another striker next season. Some people conflating what they wish for with what Ole plans and intend to do which is clearly to continue with Martial going forward.
They aren't, whereas you kind of are. We're back to the start where you're trying to laugh off and dismiss anything that isn't nauseatingly glowingly positive about Martial as either laughable or some nefarious group of haters.

Me and @He'sRaldo have managed to discuss either side of the coin without either of us declaring anything is definitely the case. Whereas you just try to flippantly laugh off anything that doesn't fit your narrative that he's the bestest and Ole loves him. He did not definitely willingly go into the season with Martial as the main striker, we tried and failed to get strikers in, we spent a lot of money on other parts of the team that took ages to negotiate. Does that mean he doesn't rate Martial? No. I simply stated that Ole's had no choice but to play him which means he has to wrap him in cotton because there are really no other options. You're again the one stating that what you want to believe is the factual situation and trying to laugh off anything else as absurd crazy talk because you don't want to hear anything that's not praise.

This is again what I mean about you lot being weird...

Also fueled by irrational hatred for the guy by some lots.
Yeah... Fecking hell...
 

OldTrevil

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Also fueled by irrational hatred for the guy by some lots.
I know, I have a bunch of posters on ignore as it gets crazy and stops one from enjoying the game or having meaningful discussions. I appreciate you guys that have kept on the good fight.
 

Stacks

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"Ole Gunnar Solskjaer has admitted he craves a forward that “wants to break their nose” to score a goal after Manchester United crashed out of the Carabao Cup despite a 1-0 victory at Manchester City."
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-united-transfer-news-striker-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-man-city-a9309056.html

Do you think Martial is this type of striker?
notice how no one addresses this?

I know, I have a bunch of posters on ignore as it gets crazy and stops one from enjoying the game or having meaningful discussions. I appreciate you guys that have kept on the good fight.
NOPE! putting peoople who dare to have a different opinion to you on mute, prevents meaningful discussions as you just create an echo chamber. The fast track to radicalisation!
 

Stacks

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This is the first time I agree with you.

Martial has struggled when playing with Daniel James especially in the 433 because hes a traditional winger than a team mate who is clinical in comparison to Rashford and you can see the way Martial and Rashford work together is better than how Martial and James work on the right hand side.

We had games where we had to play sometimes with Mata and sometimes with Greenwood- maybe it's just fans with an eye for football who sees it but he tends to play better with clinical players like Greenwood in the 433 than with players like Mata and James trying to create him 10 chances for him to score a tap in from - I wonder why? Maybe because he is better at getting the best out of clinical players out wide than utilising the chances made from out wide to put away chances himself by him being the one and only striker at United? Hence why some fans have noticed Ole has used the false 9 with Martial whilst he has also used the false 9 with other players who has literally admitted it themselves ( lingard admitting it to metro in 2019 playing same formation as Martial did with Rashford & James).

The thing is I never thought Martial is the most clinical striker at United - it's an aspect that's been a bit overrated due to his ability to finesse a shot in in comparison to someone like Rashford who pumps a shot in but when you add the ability to find himself in the right position- that adds to tenacity and a player's clinical ability as a striker just as much as an ability to finish.

However, the fact is the fans went crazy for Rashford for overcoming Martial and making LW his own - yet he failed at CF because he lacked alot of the things that were required in Ole's system and tactics.

Martial came in straight away from injury, succeeded in a role that Rashford had failed at (Greenwood as young as he maybe has even looked better on the right with his left foot than leading the line centrally even on the chances hes been given) from injury and delivered and got the best out of the most important players around him & considering we had literally no CAM in our first team - our chances were created solely by the ability of our front lines ability to create something itself (usually the stuff you see and say is just youtube skill video clips.

Rashford failed this season in a role and because he doesn't have the ability of Martial -his first touch, his passing, his ability to play with his back towards goals, his flicks and tricks, his quick decisions, his underrated short passing, his decent through balls etc - Martial can do all of that whilst deciding to come deep and get his ball to feet or try contest for the ball longer at least when he had runners making runs in behind them.
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If he plays better with clinical players, I assume its because they take the chances he creates for them, as opposed to players like Mata and James who try to create for him? then why does he have only 3 assists in the league?

Also you keep talking about how good he is with Greenwood who hardly even plays. Mata is one of our top 3 finishers in the squad. I am thinking maybe you got a bit lost in translation maybe and instead of clinical you mean direct? (as in players who just want to score)

Again if he is great at getting the most out of clinical forwards he would have far more assists.

I think everyone has seen Ole use a false 9 as James started there agaisnt Liverpool to my memory and any time he played upfront. It doesn't make you some football mogul because you spot the obvious.

This is Ole comments on Martial

“Definitely. He's got quality of course, he's a very good finisher. He takes his chances really well. There's good technique in his finishing.


“He's good receiving the ball at times and dropping off. He can play almost like a false nine as well, although sometimes I'd like him to be stronger physically.

“I'm encouraged by his attitude this season as well, wanting to do those things that are not natural for him.

“You've got to make him a No.9 again

I think he prefers a different type of CF personally, not a false 9 lite. He does not see him as having "excellent hold up play" which started this whole damn thing.

I do agree that Martial is learning how to be a number 9 as Ole stated which explains why there are many errors in his decision making and when to get into the box etc, positioning etc. Ole is the most knowledgeable from a number 9 perspective and you can read into his comments, what his dream is.
 
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Santoryo

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I know, I have a bunch of posters on ignore as it gets crazy and stops one from enjoying the game or having meaningful discussions. I appreciate you guys that have kept on the good fight.
I use to bother trying to reasoned with some posters but after awhile I realised some were simply driven by irrational hatred for the guy so it became pointless trying to argue then I just proceeded to expand my ignore list.

These days it's rare for me to see more than 15 posts a page in Martial's threads. They've become filled with all these posters acting like they've been personally offended by the guy.
 

Stacks

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Haaland with his current skill set most likely wouldn't have been first-choice, especially behind our midfield. Ole needs attackers who can create chances for themselves, which is not what Haaland excels at. Even if he started first choice (which is doubtful in and of itself), he'd have most likely been overtaken by Martial eventually. Maybe in the future he would have taken over a starting role, but like I said Ole didn't pursue a ready-made first-choice striker in the window; current Haaland wouldn't be that.




I understand your reasoning but I think it's faulty, because you could use the same logic for every single member of the squad, saying that we don't have enough, or good enough options hence they're playing there. However, there are certain players who Ole obviously values regardless of the truth of that statement. Martial is obviously seen by Ole as one of our key players, alongside a few others like Maguire and Rashford.

Whether or not he'll value them the same way long term is neither here nor there, since no one can know what will happen. But from what we've seen thus far, I think Ole thinks Martial is one of our key players from this past campaign, but also expects more from him with regards to sharpening up his weaknesses. Where that leads us in the future, who knows?
Most definitely would have. Ole rates Ighalo hold up play as something we have been missing and when he desribes what he wants, from a 9 it all points to a Haaland type. Ole has consistently lamented he wants someone to sniff out goals, break their nose to get into the box on the end of balls and someone stronger than Martial in hold up play. Someone who "knows how to play number 9" essentially as he claims Martial is still learning how to be a 9 again and that much of the role is unnatural to him.
it seems obvious he would rather an expert in the role, who is natural and comfortable with all the demands of the role. Most Likely Haaland would of taken the 9 spot and Martial and Rashford back to the wings and James gets a well needed rest!
 

VP89

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Of course you're not referring to goals when it's apparent that his end product took a nosedive.
I'm not looking at goals because I don't just judge a players contribution by that. If that was the case Lukaku should have stayed with us.
His movement is better and technical ability is lesser. I'm not sure what your actual point is.
That his performances are better and he's currently a more valued commodity than Martial is.
The obvious one that two good players have different qualified? The point is that that up until last season Rashfords development curve looked dodgy as well. No way to beat around the bush on this one. This season both have excelled and I'm grateful for that.
Rashford's has been "dodgy" but he's been on a greater upward trajectory and is 2 years younger.
People spend far too much time knit picking on them and comparing them obsessively as is apparent front this and other discussions.
People spend too much time being offended by other's opinion that they outright patronise others by calling it "wrong" or a vacuum of logic.
No, the only thing that's a joke here is your inability to grasp logic. Players don't get defined merely by their lesser games. Martial is a good footballer despite the odd average game or two, just like Rashford and co. And your dislike won't change facts.
But my logic isn't based on just an "odd average game or two". You haven't read my posts if I said it was just in 1-2 games, or even if I rested my argument on that. I obviously didn't.
So he's not a mediocre player then. And the post I called out was incorrect. Glad we've cleared that up at least given it bloody obvious and didn't need you to continuously go on about how it wasn't terrible (despite you disagreeing with it). It's a fact that he's not mediocre or bang average.
He's a great talent guilty of prolonged mediocre performances that he should not be doing at his age playing for Manchester United, relative to his talent. There was never anything to clear up, I was always very clear in my posts and you kept claiming I was talking about one off games. I never was.

The biggest consistency here seems to be people who fail to fail to judge players appropriately. Martial isn't as inconsistent as this specific herd claim.
I am judging him correctly, and he is inconsistent.
He's a very good footballer who tends to play well for us and is among our better players.
Yes, in talent he is one of our better players. But he is also inconsistent in his performances. Too much so for my liking, and others too. Some like yourself don't think that, others do. I don't understand why you can't respect differing opinions.


The obvious one that Jiminez really isn't all that. There's nothing between them despite Jiminez being older and playing his position since forever. Would not swap the two. Martial has done very well in his first year as a CF and can play at LW just as well.
Jiminez is a better centre forward than Martial. It doesn't matter if Martial is generally more talented, he is just isn't as good as a CF as Jiminez is. I don't care about LW because we are comparing CFs, and I don't care for potential because that's not tangible right now. This reminds me of an age old debate I had when someone was offended I said David Villa was a better CF than Wayne Rooney, and the rebuttle I kept getting was "but Rooney is so talented, he's a better player". It didn't mean shit because David Villa was still a better striker, because he suited that position more.
 
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Nep77

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2 weeks of no football and usual suspects are back, 16 goals this season across 15 different games. Rashford is the Messiah because he went a good run of form for couple months while 1/3 of his goal had been Penalties and missed chance after chance at one point of the season. One has progressed while other needs to be sold or made Squad player. Irrational hatred of Martial is getting to the Pogba level already, Can't Imagine what it will be once Pogba leaves. I am waiting to see the hate Bruno will get once his forms drops inevitably at some point and his miss passes and long range shooting will stop working.
 

hmchan

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Nice Martial compilation


Love Tony's game when he's in form and hope he'll continue a great form when EPL comes back.
Nice try with all these compilations, unfortunately they are hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball. In fact, these compilations are made for "worshipping" players, not analyzing players. Those who comment on players based on these compilations instead of match performances would be inevitably biased.

I'm not referring to goals though - Rashford is always on his toes, his movement is better, he's actually weaker in dribbling in my opinion to Martial, but he gets at players far more.

Is this a joke? Did you compare me referencing stretches of inconsistency with Martial to an isolated game of Wayne Fecking Rooney? Jesus this is worse than you trying to suggest I only compared Martial to Augero earlier.

I'm really not - Martial has too many mediocre games for my liking. I don't think he's a mediocre player but I'm not surprised some people are labelling him as such with some performances.


I've seen every game of his just like you have. He's good for a couple, then missing, then good for a couple, then missing. And he's been like that every year for us with a new excuse spun every time. The only consistency is his inconsistent performances.


Jiminez is a superior CF to Martial, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?
Every player experiences bad runs of form, I truly understand that especially with young players. Difference is, when other top strikers are in bad form, they can still deliver something, create chances and spaces for their teammates. But when Martial is having a bad day, he's entirely missing from the game and it's like we are playing with a man down. This is one of the reasons why hold up play is brought up to discussion.

James at 5:28 is what most on the forum complain about when saying martial doesnt get into he box more. Look at how James just crosses into the box blindly without raising his head while nobody is currently in there. Mind you he's done that continuously this season. A simple cutback would have been adequate but most on the forum believe a TRUE CF would have been at the end of that cross.

If Martial didn't play for us and we were to watch this video we would all agree he is a 100 million player.
TAA and de Bruyne pile up tons of assists from so-called "blind crosses" this season. They know someone must be in the box and if they get the cross right, the attackers could tap it in. This is one of the ways to break down an organized defence and we used it a lot in the Fergie era, with Valencia on the right wing. He also crossed frequently without looking and he ended up with plenty of assists and a POTY award.
 

OldTrevil

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notice how no one addresses this?
No need to address that as it doesn't show anything. Ole, like any good manager would, is going to challenge his players in various ways to prevent any complacency. Saying that he wants his forwards to score scrappy goals doesn't translate at all to him not rating Martial. Playing the guy, putting him in the best position to be the best version of himself and resting him whenever possible indicates otherwise.

NOPE! putting peoople who dare to have a different opinion to you on mute, prevents meaningful discussions as you just create an echo chamber. The fast track to radicalisation!
Wrong! I have no problem with those 'who dare to have a different opinion' and I never wrote anything like that. I ignore those who show irrational hate to some of our players. Jog on

I use to bother trying to reasoned with some posters but after awhile I realised some were simply driven by irrational hatred for the guy so it became pointless trying to argue then I just proceeded to expand my ignore list.

These days it's rare for me to see more than 15 posts a page in Martial's threads. They've become filled with all these posters acting like they've been personally offended by the guy.
It's weird, like he took their candy or bullied them when they were little or something. Unfortunate as it prevents people from properly appreciating or criticizing his game. When you see those posts, you wonder whether you're watching the same game or supporting the same team.
 

KennyBurner

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TAA and de Bruyne pile up tons of assists from so-called "blind crosses" this season. They know someone must be in the box and if they get the cross right, the attackers could tap it in. This is one of the ways to break down an organized defence and we used it a lot in the Fergie era, with Valencia on the right wing. He also crossed frequently without looking and he ended up with plenty of assists and a POTY award.
TAA and De Bruyne dont BLINDLY cross into the box. Even when they do it is evident that there are at least 2/3 people already in there which is what my post is referencing. Think about it yourself. Is there any situation were TAA is on the counter and is the furthest player up the pitch? I highly doubt it. James in that clip is miles ahead of everyone with his speed and decides to cross it first thing on the counter when evidently our striker who made the intial pass to him cant possibly get back in time.
 

hmchan

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Age is irrelevant, at this stage Jiminez is better as a CF. His hold up play is just as good or better, his movement is better and his physicality is better. Martial has better dribbling and pace but for a CF position, Jiminez is better as it stands.

Martial has a lot more potential sure but until and unless that's unlocked we can't just say he's better currently.
Martial is younger than Jimenez, this is the hard fact. But it is an optimistic assumption that Martial will keep on improving to reach a higher level in the following years. There are more failed wonderkids than those who really fulfill their potential (they are just forgotten eventually). I hope Martial wouldn't become one of them.

I don't disagree really. My point is in regards to people that are suggesting Ole sees him as a star player or that he's definitely happy with him as our striker. We don't really know that until he's had some competition. Last season he tended to choose Rashford or Lukaku up there, this season Rashford has taken Martial's place on the wing and Martial has been the only option as a striker. So there's no basis yet to make such statements as we could very well upgrade in that position.
If the Lingard/Pereira example isn't sufficient to stress that starting a player doesn't equal to complete trust, I'm happy to give another. Smalling and Jones were given lots of chances and started in back-to-back games over a few months last season. However they have become out of favor since the recruitment of Maguire.

As I have repeated again and again, Martial would have all the time and chances he needs to improve. There are many more positions with higher priority we have to sign. But when we complete building our squad maybe a year or two later, and Martial still hasn't shown significant improvement in the areas I have mentioned, then his position is really endangered.

Or maybe Ole realized that Martial was just a better striker upfront than Rashford and Martial actually took rashfords place in the center. he also got rid of lukaku who as you say he tended to choose for the strikers role after he realized past 3 months wasnt good enough. Ole has also shown in his interviews that he is quite happy with martial leading the line no matter how much you like to discredit him. Getting in more strikers is only natural for a big club like United that competes in multiple competitions every year.
Again, please get the fact straight before presenting it. Ole apparently wanted Lukaku to stay and it's Lukaku who said "it's over". It's true that he praises Martial, but from the way he keeps complimenting on what Ighalo offers (and complaining the lack of it for most of the season), I sense his frustration on why Martial can't offer the same, who clearly has higher potential and technical ability.
 

Bebestation

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If he plays better with clinical players, I assume its because they take the chances he creates for them, as opposed to players like Mata and James who try to create for him? then why does he have only 3 assists in the league?

Also you keep talking about how good he is with Greenwood who hardly even plays. Mata is one of our top 3 finishers in the squad. I am thinking maybe you got a bit lost in translation maybe and instead of clinical you mean direct? (as in players who just want to score)

Again if he is great at getting the most out of clinical forwards he would have far more assists.

I think everyone has seen Ole use a false 9 as James started there agaisnt Liverpool to my memory and any time he played upfront. It doesn't make you some football mogul because you spot the obvious.

This is Ole comments on Martial

“Definitely. He's got quality of course, he's a very good finisher. He takes his chances really well. There's good technique in his finishing.


“He's good receiving the ball at times and dropping off. He can play almost like a false nine as well, although sometimes I'd like him to be stronger physically.

“I'm encouraged by his attitude this season as well, wanting to do those things that are not natural for him.

“You've got to make him a No.9 again

I think he prefers a different type of CF personally, not a false 9 lite. He does not see him as having "excellent hold up play" which started this whole damn thing.

I do agree that Martial is learning how to be a number 9 as Ole stated which explains why there are many errors in his decision making and when to get into the box etc, positioning etc. Ole is the most knowledgeable from a number 9 perspective and you can read into his comments, what his dream is.
Because he stopped playing false 9 when he had to lead the line for United. His natural game is to drop deep and try bring others in to play but when Rashford went out from injury and it became players like James and Mata that he played with - he became less likely to find himself on positions to make a pass and rather in positions to finish off chances.

That's why his goal scoring is quite good and taken lead in comparison to his style of play kf when he was playing with Rashford and Greenwood.

Now we play with 352's as formations, 433 without runs in behind him -how exactly is he going to get assists when his main job is to score goals when we have no other striker or goal scorer at United due to Injuries? When we had Rashford, the goal scoring duties was clearly split more evenly through our front line and things like martials ability to create space for Rashford to get goals upon goals could be seen with him in the first team and not without him.
 

Stacks

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No need to address that as it doesn't show anything. Ole, like any good manager would, is going to challenge his players in various ways to prevent any complacency. Saying that he wants his forwards to score scrappy goals doesn't translate at all to him not rating Martial. Playing the guy, putting him in the best position to be the best version of himself and resting him whenever possible indicates otherwise.


Wrong! I have no problem with those 'who dare to have a different opinion' and I never wrote anything like that. I ignore those who show irrational hate to some of our players. Jog on


It's weird, like he took their candy or bullied them when they were little or something. Unfortunate as it prevents people from properly appreciating or criticizing his game. When you see those posts, you wonder whether you're watching the same game or supporting the same team.
But consider this, what if it is you who is the irrational one? then your perspective will be warped and you are then engaging in extremist behaviour as anyone who critiques your saviour is being seen as and irrational hater and not worthy of being heard.

you replied to another poster who referred to people having a different opinion as being irrational and HATING a player merely because they don't see the perfection you see. Who actually hates Martial? He's a nice lad.

these are the stages of radicalisation my brother.
 

Stacks

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Because he stopped playing false 9 when he had to lead the line for United. His natural game is to drop deep and try bring others in to play but when Rashford went out from injury and it became players like James and Mata that he played with - he became less likely to find himself on positions to make a pass and rather in positions to finish off chances.

That's why his goal scoring is quite good and taken lead in comparison to his style of play kf when he was playing with Rashford and Greenwood.

Now we play with 352's as formations, 433 without runs in behind him -how exactly is he going to get assists when his main job is to score goals when we have no other striker or goal scorer at United due to Injuries? When we had Rashford, the goal scoring duties was clearly split more evenly through our front line and things like martials ability to create space for Rashford to get goals upon goals could be seen with him in the first team and not without him.
So he a is Berbatov?
Do you feel he will be most effective at that role and it suits him best?
 

KennyBurner

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Again, please get the fact straight before presenting it. Ole apparently wanted Lukaku to stay and it's Lukaku who said "it's over". It's true that he praises Martial, but from the way he keeps complimenting on what Ighalo offers (and complaining the lack of it for most of the season), I sense his frustration on why Martial can't offer the same, who clearly has higher potential and technical ability.
I think it might actually be you he needs to get the facts straight because if you think I’m taking words said by lukaku as facts then your pretty much delusional. Id rather listen to actions over words. Rashford had already displaced lukaku in the team last season which obviously didn’t sit right with him. It’s probably why he decided to leave knowing he didn’t fit Oles style moving forward. If Ole wanted to keep him it was strictly for team depth and not because he would ever be our leading striker. You don’t need to be a contrarian for the sake of it.
 

NewGlory

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The most intriguing for me was to see how he would fare with both Bruno and Pogbs feeding him. Then next season when Rashford returns. Sadly I don't think I'll be watching football for a long time.......
What's up? Are you OK?

Or did you mean the whole corona thing going on + EPL suspended? Don't get depressed, mate! Life will get back to normal eventually. We just need to be smart, patient and careful in the meantime to keep ourselves and people around us as safe as possible.
 
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NewGlory

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James at 5:28 is what most on the forum complain about when saying martial doesnt get into he box more. Look at how James just crosses into the box blindly without raising his head while nobody is currently in there. Mind you he's done that continuously this season. A simple cutback would have been adequate but most on the forum believe a TRUE CF would have been at the end of that cross.

If Martial didn't play for us and we were to watch this video we would all agree he is a 100 million player.
Yeah, James' kick (can't even call it a pass) was completely pointless. Martial had no chance of running into the box, he gave a forward pass to James and had no time to magically leap in behind the defenders. If anybody could have run-in, it was Rashford or JLingz but both of them were too far away. James should not have kicked the ball into an empty space that nobody could reach. You are 100% about it.

Martial is a joy to watch when he's playing well, and that his compilation is a pleasure to watch. I just really enjoyed it as a United fan, re-watching what a talented player we have.
 

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What's up? Are you OK?

Or did you mean the whole corona thing going on + EPL suspended? Don't get depressed, mate! Life will get back to normal eventually. We just need to be smart, patient and careful in the meantime to keep ourselves and people around us as safe as possible.
this one. I was genuinely excited for next season seeing Martial + Rashford being supplied by Bruno and hopefully Pogba, IMO we would be top 3 in the league positions if everyone stayed fit. The only doubt was whether Pogba stayed but I guess COVID has guarenteed that :smirk:
 

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Of course you're not referring to goals when it's apparent that his end product took a nosedive. His movement is better and technical ability is lesser. I'm not sure what your actual point is. The obvious one that two good players have different qualified? The point is that that up until last season Rashfords development curve looked dodgy as well. No way to beat around the bush on this one. This season both have excelled and I'm grateful for that.

People spend far too much time knit picking on them and comparing them obsessively as is apparent front this and other discussions.


No, the only thing that's a joke here is your inability to grasp logic. Players don't get defined merely by their lesser games. Martial is a good footballer despite the odd average game or two, just like Rashford and co. And your dislike won't change facts.


So he's not a mediocre player then. And the post I called out was incorrect. Glad we've cleared that up at least given it bloody obvious and didn't need you to continuously go on about how it wasn't terrible (despite you disagreeing with it). It's a fact that he's not mediocre or bang average.

The biggest consistency here seems to be people who fail to fail to judge players appropriately. Martial isn't as inconsistent as this specific herd claim. He's a very good footballer who tends to play well for us and is among our better players. We, however, are generally an inconsistent and disjoint side and that tends to make it more difficult for players to hit 8/10 everygame especially the forwards given how poor the service is. Is Martial a top player? Not yet for me. He's definitely very good one but whether be can take that step up to one of the best/top class one is up to him to show. But he certainly isn't this caricature people paint him as - oscillating between good and rubbish all the time.


The obvious one that Jiminez really isn't all that. There's nothing between them despite Jiminez being older and playing his position since forever. Would not swap the two. Martial has done very well in his first year as a CF and can play at LW just as well.
The bolded part is key. No nuance on redcafe. Either super duper world class or shit on a stick. Martial is neither, but much closer to world class/top player (whatever classification you want to use) than mediocre.
 

hmchan

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2 weeks of no football and usual suspects are back, 16 goals this season across 15 different games. Rashford is the Messiah because he went a good run of form for couple months while 1/3 of his goal had been Penalties and missed chance after chance at one point of the season. One has progressed while other needs to be sold or made Squad player. Irrational hatred of Martial is getting to the Pogba level already, Can't Imagine what it will be once Pogba leaves. I am waiting to see the hate Bruno will get once his forms drops inevitably at some point and his miss passes and long range shooting will stop working.
There's nothing about Rashford vs Martial here. Read the posts before you moan.

TAA and De Bruyne dont BLINDLY cross into the box. Even when they do it is evident that there are at least 2/3 people already in there which is what my post is referencing. Think about it yourself. Is there any situation were TAA is on the counter and is the furthest player up the pitch? I highly doubt it. James in that clip is miles ahead of everyone with his speed and decides to cross it first thing on the counter when evidently our striker who made the intial pass to him cant possibly get back in time.
I'm sorry that I confused you but I didn't mean that specific play in the clip. What I meant originally in #5061 and #5103 were the lack of support when the ball was in wide area (not on the counter), which brought up the whole "no one attacking crosses" issue. The real problem is mentioned in this clip at 1:37, 3:24, 5:29 and 8:16 and Martial definitely has the pace and time to be ready for a cross.


But consider this, what if it is you who is the irrational one? then your perspective will be warped and you are then engaging in extremist behaviour as anyone who critiques your saviour is being seen as and irrational hater and not worthy of being heard.

you replied to another poster who referred to people having a different opinion as being irrational and HATING a player merely because they don't see the perfection you see. Who actually hates Martial? He's a nice lad.

these are the stages of radicalisation my brother.
Things escalate as quickly as the coronavirus. Few days ago I raised Martial's potential issues (while complimenting scoring ability) and I was accused for a lack of critical thinking. Then things became quiet when no one could really defend the inadequate hold up play from him. Now it turns into "hatred" despite the fact that I own a printed Martial shirt and I wish him success all the time.
 

amolbhatia50k

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The bolded part is key. No nuance on redcafe. Either super duper world class or shit on a stick. Martial is neither, but much closer to world class/top player (whatever classification you want to use) than mediocre.
Indeed. I mean, I'd personally like to see him excel more and for a longer duration before proclaiming him to be top class or even on the verge as some have argued he is. However the whole emotional campaign to label him as an inconsistent 'talent' who is mediocre in reality and just another one of our players is based on just that - emotion. He's clearly one of our better players. Whether he proves good enough for the team we want to be, I don't know. But I know that as of now relative to the team we have, he's doing a good job. He isn't absolutely dreadful on an off day either. His technical qualities are always there and tends to contribute on those days even if he doesn't have end product.
 

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I think reading this thread the past week highlights the main problem people have when assessing martial. Nobody ever wants to apply context. It’s basically his first season playing as a STRIKER. I don’t care that he has been here for 5 seasons as some may put it because In those years he wasn’t our main striker and so his stats in that regard are skewed. You then throw in different factors like different managers/philosophies and lack of quality in the side and you then understand that he has been great for us across the board. If we isolate this season when judging him I would say he has been great and was on course to hit the 25 goal mark if not for the global pandemic. I personally think he should be scoring 30 goals a season which is what I would be aiming for next season but this year he has been great. Not excellent just great.

All this back and forth over one of our best players is unfair and we need to give him more leeway. He is one of our key players.
 

Yagami

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Nice try with all these compilations, unfortunately they are hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball. In fact, these compilations are made for "worshipping" players, not analyzing players. Those who comment on players based on these compilations instead of match performances would be inevitably biased.
What are you on about? Who are you to tell someone what's relevant to post here and not? Loads of players have these videos posted in their performance thread, and just because you watch said video doesn't mean that's what you're basing your opinion on said player on.

You might as well go to the Fred thread and tell @Raoul off, too, while you're at it.
 

Raoul

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What are you on about? Who are you to tell someone what's relevant to post here and not? Loads of players have these videos posted in their performance thread, and just because you watch said video doesn't mean that's what you're basing your opinion on said player on.

You might as well go to the Fred thread and tell @Raoul off, too, while you're at it.
Nothing wrong with the odd - good compilation as a point of reference to discuss player performances. As long as people don't shower us with too many of them we should be fine.
 

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Indeed. I mean, I'd personally like to see him excel more and for a longer duration before proclaiming him to be top class or even on the verge as some have argued he is. However the whole emotional campaign to label him as an inconsistent 'talent' who is mediocre in reality and just another one of our players is based on just that - emotion. He's clearly one of our better players. Whether he proves good enough for the team we want to be, I don't know. But I know that as of now relative to the team we have, he's doing a good job. He isn't absolutely dreadful on an off day either. His technical qualities are always there and tends to contribute on those days even if he doesn't have end product.
Yep, definitely. We agree completely, he is very good, can be great. One of our best as of now.
 

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There's nothing about Rashford vs Martial here. Read the posts before you moan.


I'm sorry that I confused you but I didn't mean that specific play in the clip. What I meant originally in #5061 and #5103 were the lack of support when the ball was in wide area (not on the counter), which brought up the whole "no one attacking crosses" issue. The real problem is mentioned in this clip at 1:37, 3:24, 5:29 and 8:16 and Martial definitely has the pace and time to be ready for a cross.



Things escalate as quickly as the coronavirus. Few days ago I raised Martial's potential issues (while complimenting scoring ability) and I was accused for a lack of critical thinking. Then things became quiet when no one could really defend the inadequate hold up play from him. Now it turns into "hatred" despite the fact that I own a printed Martial shirt and I wish him success all the time.
Or "you haven't got an eye for football." All very condescending :)
 

Kappa123

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Not sure why anyone's getting wound up in here. He's obviously a very good player who, despite his tendency to drift in and out of a match, has shown considerable improvement in his all-around play this season. Especially considering it's his first proper run out as a striker.

He's a frustrating player with a lot of character and talent, and yes, world class potential.
 

Stacks

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Not sure why anyone's getting wound up in here. He's obviously a very good player who, despite his tendency to drift in and out of a match, has shown considerable improvement in his all-around play this season. Especially considering it's his first proper run out as a striker.

He's a frustrating player with a lot of character and talent, and yes, world class potential.
This is that hyperbole though. What about his current ability and potential leads to world class? What do you regard as World class?

For me world class players are simply ones who would not look out of place in a hypothetical world 11 or it's bench (5 players max). There can be multiple in one position for example Batigol, R9, Raul, Shevchenko all world class as you could have any one of them starting dependent on formation.

Martial is still learning how to play as a 9 so what position does he have world class potential in? It is hard to make a world class CF as much of it requires instinct and things you cannot teach. Kane was saying this a few years back.

If it is as a forward then he has a lot of competition to compete with players like Neymar and even Mbappe, as world class forwards. Haaland is another one. These guys already doing bits in the CL, league and international level (in some cases), so I would put my hat on them far more comfortably in terms of becoming world class and he has a lot to meet that level. World class should not just be for any player who has talent or is a great player.

I think he can become a great player but that's not the same as world class in my book.
 

Kappa123

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This is that hyperbole though. What about his current ability and potential leads to world class? What do you regard as World class?

For me world class players are simply ones who would not look out of place in a hypothetical world 11 or it's bench (5 players max). There can be multiple in one position for example Batigol, R9, Raul, Shevchenko all world class as you could have any one of them starting dependent on formation.

Martial is still learning how to play as a 9 so what position does he have world class potential in? It is hard to make a world class CF as much of it requires instinct and things you cannot teach. Kane was saying this a few years back.

If it is as a forward then he has a lot of competition to compete with players like Neymar and even Mbappe, as world class forwards. Haaland is another one. These guys already doing bits in the CL, league and international level (in some cases), so I would put my hat on them far more comfortably in terms of becoming world class and he has a lot to meet that level. World class should not just be for any player who has talent or is a great player.

I think he can become a grea
I was using a looser definition of world class, one that includes more of the fringe top players. I see Martial becoming a top second-striker a la Griezmann but without the hounding defensive work. He has immaculate ball control, loves taking on a man, has a great eye for passing and combining around the box and, as we know, can slot them home with ease on his day.

I genuinely believe he can achieve this if he puts in the effort like he has done this season.
 

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What happened between then
The worship for such a mediocre player is truly hard to understand. It's one thing to defend a player against unjust criticism but then why take it to the other extreme?

People overrating Martial and his magic "talent" and "potential" are absurd. He's not even that good as a wide player, forget striker... he's not a top player at all.
and now?
Not sure why anyone's getting wound up in here. He's obviously a very good player who, despite his tendency to drift in and out of a match, has shown considerable improvement in his all-around play this season. Especially considering it's his first proper run out as a striker.

He's a frustrating player with a lot of character and talent, and yes, world class potential.
 

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So he a is Berbatov?
Do you feel he will be most effective at that role and it suits him best?
So wait now Berbatov dropped back and Drogba and RVN didn't?

This is some next Biased sh*t.

When you want to cr*p on Martial you pick some average striker and compare him to him like Berbatov or Anelka :lol:

And then also have the balls to say that every striker drops backs - only to chuck Berbatov in our face when we talk about martial again.

Look at this -


Nice try with all these compilations, unfortunately they are hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball. In fact, these compilations are made for "worshipping" players, not analyzing players. Those who comment on players based on these compilations instead of match performances would be inevitably biased.


Every player experiences bad runs of form, I truly understand that especially with young players. Difference is, when other top strikers are in bad form, they can still deliver something, create chances and spaces for their teammates. But when Martial is having a bad day, he's entirely missing from the game and it's like we are playing with a man down. This is one of the reasons why hold up play is brought up to discussion.


TAA and de Bruyne pile up tons of assists from so-called "blind crosses" this season. They know someone must be in the box and if they get the cross right, the attackers could tap it in. This is one of the ways to break down an organized defence and we used it a lot in the Fergie era, with Valencia on the right wing. He also crossed frequently without looking and he ended up with plenty of assists and a POTY award.
@hmchan talks about what Martial is not doing for us. Talking about the lack of movement for 87 minutes and not the good 3 minutes when he has the ball at his feet.

Bingo.

Please save this post in this thread - because I agree with you.

This is why martial causes a difference in opinion. It's not because hes lazy for 87 minutes, but it's because if hes really good for those 3 minutes where he has the ball at his feet - what do you do?

You change the system to gcet the ball at his feet longer throughout the match.

Martial is a system player and alot of us saw that for 2 months when Rashford playing and Martial was playing false 9 because the ball was consistently at his feet and no one could deal with him because he was playing deep, acres of space and time to interlink the wider players ( one main issue being James was a winger not a forward like Rashford Rashford because Greenwood isnt ready). He was scoring less goals but he felt like a more useful player, more involved in the team build up and the ball felt like it was literally glued to him.

Rashford got injured, the system, the players and the tactics changed needing martial to be a striker that leads the line and when he does by himself - I agree with you he isnt good enough for us to win trophies.

I don't think Firmino would win trophies for Liverpool without clinical forwards like Salah and Mane next to him and him having to lead the line himself with players like shaqiri and Lallana trying to whip balls in to him like our version of James and mata. We had seen Firmino without a system that got the best out of him and he was clearly average.

Now even if you disagree with Firmino and Martial being similar players -the fact is that Martial getting a system that benefits him, benefits United and does not harm to absolutely no one at United. It gets the best out of players like Rashford who he has a great partnership with so what exactly is the problem?

Why bin a player that clearly needs a system to get the ball deep and in to his feet to get the best out of him when A) it was used already when the players were fit and making runs off him B)is doing well adapting to leading the line by himself when he isnt that type of striker like Ighalo or Haaland is either.

The problem is that some fans talk about how he doesn't make runs like he is some lazy player that you don't see defending at your own corner flags, making a header from a corner an attempting to make runs and passes as he tries to make his way all the way on to the other side to try and score the goal as well - but the real problem is to get the most efficiency out of him you need a system - a system that gets the ball to his feet 7 out of 10 times than him trying to lead the line and make the right runs behind the defense. When we had that system where he was allowed to play deep, ball to feet, he played like a glue to the wider forwards like Rashford & Greenwood/James making runs behind him and I genuinely thought Martial had found his way much more than just scoring a goal every 2 games off a single chance, because he was involved in the gameplay almost 90% of the time even if it was Rashford taking goal scoring duties at the time and we had no CAM.

Hopefully we get Ole for another year so we can try Martial upfront with Rashford and Greenwood/Sancho type players for another year & see how they develop because if we go for someone like Pochettino then Martial has no chance at CF/False 9 just as much as he did under Mourinho. Takes a certain type of manager to atleast have the balls to try a false 9 formation out consistently and not without injuries and I'm glad so far that we have seem to found one.
 

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What's happening at this thread? I get that when it comes to arguments, it can easily boiled up into heats then pointless series of fighting posts. Myself also still tend to make that mistakes again and again unfortunately.

A common reason is the usage of certain words that have elements of hate labelling that attacks the poster or subject, rejecting blindly opinions saying it wrong without good reasons, and condescending words. We know which ones, let's not kid ourselves.

So let's stop using those words and have civilised discussion.

Isn't it fun to have and consider different opinions/perspectives. A forum is a compilation of that anyway. As we know different perspectives then surely our understanding of the "subject matter" will be better, in this case it's "Martial shortcomings/drawbacks" I think.

Argue (i.e. support or/and reject) statements with respect and good reasonings. I will also try to do the same.
 

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Anyway, anyone else thinks this season is Martial's best season so far?

I think it is. Recency bias? There are still inconsistencies to his game but I felt his game is changing and more expressive and thus more productive and useful to the team now. It's a lot more fun overall objectively.

His 1st season have the advantage of the shock factor while already back then showed a lot of his game limitations, and then repetitive style with not much improvements (only some) the following 3 seasons at LW.