Anthony Martial image 9

Anthony Martial France flag

2019-20 Performances


View full 2019-20 profile

5.9 Season Average Rating
Appearances
34
Goals
16
Assists
5
Yellow cards
1

Mick1

Full Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
247
One of my favorite players at United. Shame he has the absolute worst thread on here. The state of those discussions. Take a break lads, he s doing well, not great and hopefully he keeps improving, if not he will be relegated to a squad role and a better player will be signed in the coming seasons. He's still one of our best players, mind.

Martial FC is the absolute worst thing that could ve happened to the lad. Both praise and criticism of him go overboard.
 

Kappa123

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
166
Location
corona research lab
Zlatan was another striker who drops deeps and literally moved to Barcelona to play under Pep and couldn't even control a football in his system and Zlatan shites on Berbatov playing for the same reason you think Berbatov could play as a false 9.
That's just not true at all. Zlatan was immense at Barca, his only fault was not being as good as Messi.

You never watched Zlatan at Barca. How are you calling people out on their football knowledge when you don't even know what you're talking about? :lol:
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
4,747
You have many strikers who can't even play football yet are very successful strikers. There are different kinds of strikers. Martial is not a Harland or Lukaku type or Berbatov type of a striker. He is a different kind. So that's why Ole is using him the way he is doing now.
With the arrival of Bruno hopefully it will work out.
James should be blamed for some of the stuff. His style of football is just put down his head and runs and then put in a cross. He needs to get his head up and put the ball where his teammates are and not where he wants them to be.
Does Martial need to improve? Of course he does. But I have seen that most of the goals he scored is around the penalty spot or so or outside. So get the ball where he is most comfortable.
 

UncleBob

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
2,588
Bizarre the amount of stick he gets, his overall form this season has been great, and the amount of goals between our attacking players has been excellent considering the lack of quality behind them. Hopefully just underlines the potential up front
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
Mate you've picked out a performance where literally for 3/4 of the time the system is wrong with a player like James player at RW.

You literally picked out a performance to agree with me because he didn't perform well with James for 58 minutes but you say the proof is that he didn't perform well with Greenwood for the rest of the 32 minutes of the match when Watford were 2-0 up after de gea's mistakes and penalties.

He literally played in a cr*p system the same way a player like Firmino would struggle with playing shaqiri on one side. How is that an excuse?

The fact is this 'anti martial' fan base have such poor understanding of football that see him having poor runs, him having poor touches, him being lazy, him being like Berbatov or Anelka, him being just better than Alan Smith, him being compared directly to the abilities of a striker who is a poacher whilst disregarding what he brings to the build up play of our attacks,when all he needs is a system to make him that 10% more consistent than he already is and on top of that; people keep acting like the 'fans of Martial' or the 'normal fans of United' wouldn't appreciate and love to see a different style of striker to him like Haaland here as well.

Do you know why?

Because alot of the fans of Martial see him as this interlinking false 9 player so we see the benefit of having him on top of a striker like Haaland who is a different type of striker.

That's why I disagree everytime someone compares Martial to Haaland or RVN, I feel like he doesnt play like that at all (has different positives and negatives) but if we make him play a type of football like those players instead of trying to get the best use out of him by playing his natural system then he wont progress further.

Like it's just so frustrating people disregarding the use of a false 9 forward in our squad one day even when we might have traditional striker on the squad aswell.

Rashford- Haaland/Greenwood
Martial
Or considering Martial is our only support striker in the squad

Haaland
Martial
Or Partnership as a striker as a support striker because his passing abilities are the best out of all the strikers in the squad

Martial -Haaland
It's so obvious why Ole wanted two right footed forwards and two left footed forwards. All 4 of different styles. One that can play deep, 2 that can play wide and one that can play as a more traditional approach forward but they all clearly blend to allow us to play flexible tactics.


While others regard you as mental, I'm starting to appreciate your imagination indeed. You imagine Firmino would struggle with Shaqiri on the flank, but it hasn't happened at all; you imagine Martial would succeed with a right player at RW, but it hasn't happened either. Is there any solid proof to support your stance? You are living in your own world imagining what "could" happen "if" blah blah blah, but others analyze using past performances and track records, that's why so many find it difficult to communicate with you.

Talking about understanding in football, have you ever thought why your ideal system is never deployed by Ole using your great knowledge in tactics? Why would he insist in a "crap system" for most of the time? Why wouldn't he do whatever it takes to bring the best out of Martial? Maybe retain Lukaku at all costs? Maybe start Greenwood more especially when James has been disappointing?

When you want wide forwards cutting in, you need players to take up the wide positions they left in order to maintain width. Liverpool are privileged to have the best attacking fullbacks in the world, how about us? Despite Wan-Bissaka's offensive play is better than many suggest, he is nowhere near the level required with his end product. Williams is even rawer than Greenwood and Shaw's forward run has become much less threatening after his terrible injury. That's why James is given plenty of chances despite being mediocre as we can't afford to play inside forwards on both flanks.

I'm glad that you finally manage to mention "build up play", as this is the major issue we have been discussing for pages. I respect your opinion that Martial has done enough in build up play but for me that's certainly inadequate. I have explained the reasons multiple times (#5061 and many more) and I don't want to repeat myself. I guess it's okay for us to adopt different standards and I have no intention to raise yours, but I'm not lowering mine to match yours either.

Worse still, you are still imagining someone here criticizing Martial for being lazy. Imagination and creativity are good sometimes, but abusing them may possibly evolve into persecuted delusion. As a fellow United fan, I hope you could take care of yourself and I wish you stay healthy in the future.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
1,085
Supports
An adult TV Channel
While others regard you as mental, I'm starting to appreciate your imagination indeed. You imagine Firmino would struggle with Shaqiri on the flank, but it hasn't happened at all; you imagine Martial would succeed with a right player at RW, but it hasn't happened either. Is there any solid proof to support your stance? You are living in your own world imagining what "could" happen "if" blah blah blah, but others analyze using past performances and track records, that's why so many find it difficult to communicate with you.

Talking about understanding in football, have you ever thought why your ideal system is never deployed by Ole using your great knowledge in tactics? Why would he insist in a "crap system" for most of the time? Why wouldn't he do whatever it takes to bring the best out of Martial? Maybe retain Lukaku at all costs? Maybe start Greenwood more especially when James has been disappointing?

When you want wide forwards cutting in, you need players to take up the wide positions they left in order to maintain width. Liverpool are privileged to have the best attacking fullbacks in the world, how about us? Despite Wan-Bissaka's offensive play is better than many suggest, he is nowhere near the level required with his end product. Williams is even rawer than Greenwood and Shaw's forward run has become much less threatening after his terrible injury. That's why James is given plenty of chances despite being mediocre as we can't afford to play inside forwards on both flanks.

I'm glad that you finally manage to mention "build up play", as this is the major issue we have been discussing for pages. I respect your opinion that Martial has done enough in build up play but for me that's certainly inadequate. I have explained the reasons multiple times (#5061 and many more) and I don't want to repeat myself. I guess it's okay for us to adopt different standards and I have no intention to raise yours, but I'm not lowering mine to match yours either.

Worse still, you are still imagining someone here criticizing Martial for being lazy. Imagination and creativity are good sometimes, but abusing them may possibly evolve into persecuted delusion. As a fellow United fan, I hope you could take care of yourself and I wish you stay healthy in the future.
Like wise, a post made of pure imagination and no proof.

Soon as James stopped playing Wan Bisakka had acres of space that he didn't previously have the ability to attack at that he has done more the season went on than the start of the season when James was hogging the touchline. Only effects the full back eh?

And others regard me as mental? You and your 3 friends? I'm okay mate.

City play with inverted fullbacks by the way that hold on to space which allow their wider players and CAM to create half spaces aswell instead of Liverpool creating half spaces from their forwards cutting in and overlapping which is added on top on a highly press heavy team which is not what we do is it now?

If the shaqiri thing is too imaginative ( you know since Shaqiri doesnt seem to get played that much by Klopp because he knows that's a tactic that wont work :angel:, hint * maybe that's more Jose's tactics with Origi coming on when Firmino struggles latching on to crosses) - so Rashford, Firmino and Daniel James. Nice. And now Rashford is injured Firmino and Daniel James upfront sometimes in a 352, Firmino with Ighalo sounds awful like his 2015 season with him trying to find form with benteke :lol: he will make it work because hes a decent player but to assume that hes going to destroy the league without a system and the right system is wrong. Some players need that system more than most and for me, Martial is that type of player and for you he isnt.

Now I hope you get better and hope you never fall Ill again.
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
1,156
I don't recall that being a situation that was ever confirmed. We tried for Haaland and spent a ridiculous amount of time haggling for Bruno. It seems clear we wanted both given we signed Bruno and a striker anyway.

James was still making the cutbacks when Martial was injured, Rashford was not making the runs either.

The fact he started with Rashford as the main man then gave him the left wing position when that didn't work out. Martial has not always been in when we had the Lukaku and Sanchez options while Rashford has. Again, I'm not saying that it's definitely the case. I'm just saying the people claiming the opposite is the case are wilfully ignoring the fact Ole has no other options and like us being completely under powered up front is some sort of plan to benefit their favourite player.
The thing is, at the end of the day we'd obviously all love a galactico-ability first 11, Ole included. However, that's not easy at all to go out and buy so we have to strengthen from our weakest points, and if we do eventually get to the point where everywhere is strong and stable and we can upgrade, then good.

However, what I've been trying to say is Martial is low on the list of people to be upgraded because he's one of our current best players and Ole knows this. Of course, no one knows the future and he could very well end up being replaced at some point, but it doesn't make sense to me to talk about such a hypothetical scenario when the actual scenario right now is that he's low on the list to be replaced and Ole rates him high among our current squad.

And as for the bolded, I do think Ole made that call in order to aid Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood's development and show faith in them. It was a mistake to not bring in additional cover and we paid for it, but Ole's bravery did benefit all of them greatly as they all took strides this season, and established themselves in ways they previously weren't.
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
You have many strikers who can't even play football yet are very successful strikers. There are different kinds of strikers. Martial is not a Harland or Lukaku type or Berbatov type of a striker. He is a different kind. So that's why Ole is using him the way he is doing now.
With the arrival of Bruno hopefully it will work out.
James should be blamed for some of the stuff. His style of football is just put down his head and runs and then put in a cross. He needs to get his head up and put the ball where his teammates are and not where he wants them to be.
Does Martial need to improve? Of course he does. But I have seen that most of the goals he scored is around the penalty spot or so or outside. So get the ball where he is most comfortable.
The whole "different styles of strikers" thing is nothing more than an attempted delusion. All types of strikers (except poachers which don't even exist anymore) need to participate in hold up play nowadays, regardless you are a complete forward like Aguero, Suarez and Kane, a target man like Carroll, or a false nine like Benzema and Firmino.

Presenting it in another extreme, it's just like all goalkeepers have to catch high balls. No matter you are a shotstopper, a sweeper keeper, or a ball playing keeper, you still need to deal with crosses. It's basically the nature of the position. If you fail to catch high balls, no matter how many saves you make, how many balls you sweep, how many long passes you make, you just can't become a top goalkeeper.

There's a general misconception that hold up play is a responsibility strictly for physical players (that's why Drogba is kept being mentioned), but essentially it's not. Strong players use their body while smaller players use their skills and techniques, but ultimately the idea is to protect the ball up front and wait for support.
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
Like wise, a post made of pure imagination and no proof.

Soon as James stopped playing Wan Bisakka had acres of space that he didn't previously have the ability to attack at that he has done more the season went on than the start of the season when James was hogging the touchline. Only effects the full back eh?

And others regard me as mental? You and your 3 friends? I'm okay mate.

City play with inverted fullbacks by the way that hold on to space which allow their wider players and CAM to create half spaces aswell instead of Liverpool creating half spaces from their forwards cutting in and overlapping which is added on top on a highly press heavy team which is not what we do is it now?

If the shaqiri thing is too imaginative ( you know since Shaqiri doesnt seem to get played that much by Klopp because he knows that's a tactic that wont work :angel:, hint * maybe that's more Jose's tactics with Origi coming on when Firmino struggles latching on to crosses) - so Rashford, Firmino and Daniel James. Nice. And now Rashford is injured Firmino and Daniel James upfront sometimes in a 352, Firmino with Ighalo sounds awful like his 2015 season with him trying to find form with benteke :lol: he will make it work because hes a decent player but to assume that hes going to destroy the league without a system and the right system is wrong. Some players need that system more than most and for me, Martial is that type of player and for you he isnt.

Now I hope you get better and hope you never fall Ill again.
I have posted a clip which clearly demonstrates Martial's lack of hold up plays and off-the-ball movement. I have mentioned the Wolves game in which he was easily pinned down and he delivered nothing at all (in fact there are many more similar games but this is a classic example). I have also listed out his match ratings and shown he was easily one of the worst on the pitch when he was out of form. No proof? Wow.
 

meamth

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
3,143
Location
Malaysia
Figuratively speaking, how many goals would he scored if he didn't get injured early in the season?

Anyone with the stats?
 

InfiniteBoredom

Full Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
10,359
Location
Melbourne
Figuratively speaking, how many goals would he scored if he didn't get injured early in the season?

Anyone with the stats?
Speaking strictly with goals he’s on 16 in 34 with 5 of those from the bench.

If we assume that in the 2 months he missed he’d have started or get subbed on in 8/9 matches it’s not unreasonable to expect about 20 goals right now. If you factor in assists/key passes etc we’d probably be looking at about 30 goal contributions in 44/45 matches which while is good enough a rate for most of the European top clubs.
 

meamth

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
3,143
Location
Malaysia
Speaking strictly with goals he’s on 16 in 34 with 5 of those from the bench.

If we assume that in the 2 months he missed he’d have started or get subbed on in 8/9 matches it’s not unreasonable to expect about 20 goals right now. If you factor in assists/key passes etc we’d probably be looking at about 30 goal contributions in 44/45 matches which while is good enough a rate for most of the European top clubs.
To get that amount of goals without Pogba and Bruno, I'd say he's doing exceptionally well leading the forward line for the first time.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
2,620
Location
Ireland
I have posted a clip which clearly demonstrates Martial's lack of hold up plays and off-the-ball movement. I have mentioned the Wolves game in which he was easily pinned down and he delivered nothing at all (in fact there are many more similar games but this is a classic example). I have also listed out his match ratings and shown he was easily one of the worst on the pitch when he was out of form. No proof? Wow.
People have posted videos in here that demonstrate his good hold up play as well. You've pin pointed his match against Wolves as an example of his anonymity yet you ignore people when they say he had excellent hold up play before the turn of the year. Why are you ignoring this?
 

Brightonian

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
12,584
Location
Juanderlust
Wasn't sure which thread to drop this in so here it is.



Imagine adding Sancho, and managing to keep all four free of major injuries for a season... that's a league-winning attack, no question. With an average age of 21.
 

Stacks

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
6,276
Location
Between a rock and the Nou Camp
Wasn't sure which thread to drop this in so here it is.



Imagine adding Sancho, and managing to keep all four free of major injuries for a season... that's a league-winning attack, no question. With an average age of 21.
As an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, that attack should be guaranteeing us top 3, regardless who the manager is, especially with Pogba and Bruno supplying. On paper we would probably have as dangerous attack as Liverpool. The only thing that holds me back from saying "league winning" is as you say, average age of 21. They need the experience of being in a title race which is basically the expectation of winning EVERY SINGLE GAME. right now, United are in a place where dropping points every other game is acceptable because we are only trying to get top 4 and are in the running. When you are going for the title, the pressure is next level.....I mean you can see what Liverpool's players went through last season and still didn't win it, what they put themselves through this season and City in the previous seasons! it's insane. literally cannot even drop points. Every draw or loss is a crisis. That's a huge jump from where we are now so will take some adjusting for young players but definitely potential there.
 

MalcolmTucker

Full Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
851
The thing is, at the end of the day we'd obviously all love a galactico-ability first 11, Ole included. However, that's not easy at all to go out and buy so we have to strengthen from our weakest points, and if we do eventually get to the point where everywhere is strong and stable and we can upgrade, then good.

However, what I've been trying to say is Martial is low on the list of people to be upgraded because he's one of our current best players and Ole knows this. Of course, no one knows the future and he could very well end up being replaced at some point, but it doesn't make sense to me to talk about such a hypothetical scenario when the actual scenario right now is that he's low on the list to be replaced and Ole rates him high among our current squad.

And as for the bolded, I do think Ole made that call in order to aid Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood's development and show faith in them. It was a mistake to not bring in additional cover and we paid for it, but Ole's bravery did benefit all of them greatly as they all took strides this season, and established themselves in ways they previously weren't.
Good post and mirrors exactly how I feel. I'm not completely sold on Martial but he's had a decent season, is young and has the talent to succeed here. This season is the first time he's been trusted as a number 9 and to me he's proved he is certainly adequate going forward. He hasn't had a break out season, but considering the circumstances and that he spent most of the season being fed by the likes Lingard, Andreas and James, he's done well and hopefully next season, with Bruno, Rashford and Pogba (and hopefully Sancho) playing together, we'll get to see him and the rest of our team really prove themselves.
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
People have posted videos in here that demonstrate his good hold up play as well. You've pin pointed his match against Wolves as an example of his anonymity yet you ignore people when they say he had excellent hold up play before the turn of the year. Why are you ignoring this?
I didn't ignore those videos demonstrating his "occassional" good hold up plays. In fact I responded directly in #5176 that these compilations were hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball.

I made it pretty clear in my #5079 reply to you. Yes Martial can "occassionally" complete one or two hold up plays but that's certainly not enough for me. These compilations only focus on the successful ones (very limited btw), but they fail to reflect the bad ones or the lack of it. Again if you or anyone think he had excellent hold up play, I respect your opinion but I personally adopt a much higher standard.
 

OldTrevil

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
2,315
To get that amount of goals without Pogba and Bruno, I'd say he's doing exceptionally well leading the forward line for the first time.
On top of that, his overall performances have been consistently good apart from a 2 week period in January. Martial has had a great season but the same old false narratives are being used by some to try and diminish it. He shown everything a CF can do, from false 9 to lone striker, against all sorts of teams. This season he has also shown improvement with his left foot and overall stamina. The naysayers will pick the two times out ten he failed to control a long ball or gave the wrong weight of pass as proof that he isn't "a proper #9", ridiculous.
 

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
4,141
On top of that, his overall performances have been consistently good apart from a 2 week period in January. Martial has had a great season but the same old false narratives are being used by some to try and diminish it. He shown everything a CF can do, from false 9 to lone striker, against all sorts of teams. This season he has also shown improvement with his left foot and overall stamina. The naysayers will pick the two times out ten he failed to control a long ball or gave the wrong weight of pass as proof that he isn't "a proper #9", ridiculous.
Pretty much and it's downright pathetic.
 

meamth

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
3,143
Location
Malaysia
I didn't ignore those videos demonstrating his "occassional" good hold up plays. In fact I responded directly in #5176 that these compilations were hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball.

I made it pretty clear in my #5079 reply to you. Yes Martial can "occassionally" complete one or two hold up plays but that's certainly not enough for me. These compilations only focus on the successful ones (very limited btw), but they fail to reflect the bad ones or the lack of it. Again if you or anyone think he had excellent hold up play, I respect your opinion but I personally adopt a much higher standard.
I'm having serious doubts how many matches you have watched.

Strikers in general are very limited, if you play football, that's the most unrewarding position to play. In one game, strikers usually averaging 5-10 times touching the ball.

In terms of Martial, 7/10 times I've seen him successfully holding up the ball, and that's good enough for a striker not renowned for it's strength. He is improving that aspect of his style, and if you failed to see that, I don't know what team are you watching..
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
2,620
Location
Ireland
I didn't ignore those videos demonstrating his "occassional" good hold up plays. In fact I responded directly in #5176 that these compilations were hardly relevant. We are discussing what Martial is not doing for us, not what he is doing; we are talking about his lack of off-the-ball movement for 87 minutes of the game, not the 3 minutes when he has the ball.

I made it pretty clear in my #5079 reply to you. Yes Martial can "occassionally" complete one or two hold up plays but that's certainly not enough for me. These compilations only focus on the successful ones (very limited btw), but they fail to reflect the bad ones or the lack of it. Again if you or anyone think he had excellent hold up play, I respect your opinion but I personally adopt a much higher standard.
So your evidence is good but everyone else's is shit? You do realise that you've picked to use even more limited data and expect us to take you seriously.
 

abdo99

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
12,273
To get that amount of goals without Pogba and Bruno, I'd say he's doing exceptionally well leading the forward line for the first time.
and yet if you were to leave it to the CAF he would be the first name in the attack to be sold
 

P-Nut

fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
16,644
Location
Oldham, Greater Manchester
Wasn't sure which thread to drop this in so here it is.



Imagine adding Sancho, and managing to keep all four free of major injuries for a season... that's a league-winning attack, no question. With an average age of 21.
We've played some really nice football at times this year, it's just that it is in dribs and drabs.

With the consistency we were showing of late, and as you say Sancho potentially coming in we really should be a team pushing for the title next year.

I don't expect us to win it, but we should be much closer to the top 2 than we are right now.
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
I'm having serious doubts how many matches you have watched.

Strikers in general are very limited, if you play football, that's the most unrewarding position to play. In one game, strikers usually averaging 5-10 times touching the ball.

In terms of Martial, 7/10 times I've seen him successfully holding up the ball, and that's good enough for a striker not renowned for it's strength. He is improving that aspect of his style, and if you failed to see that, I don't know what team are you watching..
5-10 touches per game for a striker, are you serious? Are you referring to the compilations/highlights or actual games? I'm really having serious doubts how many full matches you have watched. Even for sides near the relegation zone, their strikers average almost 40 touches in 90 minutes (e.g. Joelinton's 46.3, Haller's 46.1, Maupay's 39.1) despite their teams are often the underdog and have fewer possessions. I get that why 7/10 times you've seen Martial successfully holding up the ball, because you selectively see the 5-10 touches you want to see.

So your evidence is good but everyone else's is shit? You do realise that you've picked to use even more limited data and expect us to take you seriously.
Nah, but till now I've seen no one providing any evidence that Martial is being active off the ball and eager to participate in hold up play. Instead, I only see someone trying to accuse me for a lack of critical thinking (for proposing an unpopular opinion here), someone attempting to move the goalposts to goalscoring (which I acknowledge his improvement), and someone dodging the issue by blaming the role or system.

I don't expect you to take me seriously, I don't need to as the future will speak for itself. I wish him success as much as everyone else here and I have expressed it plenty of times. I just feel it would be a shame if he can't fulfill his potential and reach the required standard as he's clearly a talent. Of course I understand some think he's attained the required level and I always respect that kind of opinion.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
2,620
Location
Ireland
5-10 touches per game for a striker, are you serious? Are you referring to the compilations/highlights or actual games? I'm really having serious doubts how many full matches you have watched. Even for sides near the relegation zone, their strikers average almost 40 touches in 90 minutes (e.g. Joelinton's 46.3, Haller's 46.1, Maupay's 39.1) despite their teams are often the underdog and have fewer possessions. I get that why 7/10 times you've seen Martial successfully holding up the ball, because you selectively see the 5-10 touches you want to see.


Nah, but till now I've seen no one providing any evidence that Martial is being active off the ball and eager to participate in hold up play. Instead, I only see someone trying to accuse me for a lack of critical thinking (for proposing an unpopular opinion here), someone attempting to move the goalposts to goalscoring (which I acknowledge his improvement), and someone dodging the issue by blaming the role or system.

I don't expect you to take me seriously, I don't need to as the future will speak for itself. I wish him success as much as everyone else here and I have expressed it plenty of times. I just feel it would be a shame if he can't fulfill his potential and reach the required standard as he's clearly a talent. Of course I understand some think he's attained the required level and I always respect that kind of opinion.
The bolded is what we agree on. He can become much better. No doubt about that.

You're original criticism was that he is not a proper number 9, citing his hold up play as a major weakness. To support your opinion, you have provided a video and referenced a single game. Since that point, you have told anyone posting evidence (which you asked for) to the contrary that their evidence is irrelevant. From what I have seen, the evidence presented against your point is far more complete and compelling than your's.

As mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, I believe that Martial can become a much better player. What I don't believe is that he has poor hold up play (I think it's very good) and I'm certainly not of the opinion that he's not a proper number 9.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
4,747
When you have a ball punted up or a very difficult pass as normally by Lingard and Periera, not even Sparky is going to hold it up let alone Martial.
It's the successful touches that's important. But also in respect of where he get the touches. Kane has about 12 successful touches average in a match. I am sure Martial has more than 5 successful touches in an average game. Stats don't give the true pic in a football match. It's like assists. Player A dribbles thru the entire opposition and passes to player B who only squares to player C to score. The assist is given to player B who did feck all.
So Martial holding the ball or not depends on the pass he receives. He generally has good ball control.
 

hmchan

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
99
The bolded is what we agree on. He can become much better. No doubt about that.

You're original criticism was that he is not a proper number 9, citing his hold up play as a major weakness. To support your opinion, you have provided a video and referenced a single game. Since that point, you have told anyone posting evidence (which you asked for) to the contrary that their evidence is irrelevant. From what I have seen, the evidence presented against your point is far more complete and compelling than your's.

As mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, I believe that Martial can become a much better player. What I don't believe is that he has poor hold up play (I think it's very good) and I'm certainly not of the opinion that he's not a proper number 9.
I have done much more than just providing a clip and referencing a single game. I have been emphasizing that the Wolves game is a classic example while there are many more similar games on the list, and I have posted some ratings which show that it definitely isn't a one-off incident. I have mentioned how Ole keeps complimenting Ighalo for offering what we lack most of the season. All of these point to the fact that Martial isn't currently doing enough as a no. 9. Maybe he'll improve in the future, maybe he'll be better with a better RW, we all hope for that and I never deny these possibilities. I have stressed plenty of times that he'll have all the time and chances he needs when we are still building our squad.

Compared to those compilations which only show one or two touches in the game (which is clearly not enough for me), I think I have presented much more evidence. If you think those 5-min compilations reflecting only the positive sides throughout the whole season are more complete and detailed than my 10-min clip reflecting a single match with both on- and off-the ball moments, then we'll again have to agree to disagree here.
 
Last edited:

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
73,953
Location
india
I'm not looking at goals because I don't just judge a players contribution by that. If that was the case Lukaku should have stayed with us.

That his performances are better and he's currently a more valued commodity than Martial is.
Rashford's has been "dodgy" but he's been on a greater upward trajectory and is 2 years younger.
.
There's not much between them. Some would argue that Rashford gives more due to his movement, energy and drive. Others would claim Martial's technical excellence gives him the edge. I believe Martial has generally been the better footballer due to aforementioned reasons but this season Rashford has been slightly better, and they're both fanatastic and worth appreciating rather than criticizing/comparing.

Goals are an extremely important part of the game of a forward isn't really a playmaking type one, as is the case with Rashford. I'd say Rashford was adding some new elements to his game, getting stronger etc but his actual peformances were streaky, and he was going back in some ways (dribbling was becoming weak and one dimensional, consistently running into blind alleys) - like Martial, the team and especially big young talents under Mourinho. All in all, I'd say Rashford was more in favour, but both he and Martial weren't really taking major strides and were held back by the team they were in.

People spend too much time being offended by other's opinion that they outright patronise others by calling it "wrong" or a vacuum of logic.
But my logic isn't based on just an "odd average game or two". You haven't read my posts if I said it was just in 1-2 games, or even if I rested my argument on that. I obviously didn't.

He's a great talent guilty of prolonged mediocre performances that he should not be doing at his age playing for Manchester United, relative to his talent. There was never anything to clear up, I was always very clear in my posts and you kept claiming I was talking about one off games. I never was.


I am judging him correctly, and he is inconsistent.

Yes, in talent he is one of our better players. But he is also inconsistent in his performances. Too much so for my liking, and others too. Some like yourself don't think that, others do. I don't understand why you can't respect differing opinions.




Jiminez is a better centre forward than Martial. It doesn't matter if Martial is generally more talented, he is just isn't as good as a CF as Jiminez is. I don't care about LW because we are comparing CFs, and I don't care for potential because that's not tangible right now. This reminds me of an age old debate I had when someone was offended I said David Villa was a better CF than Wayne Rooney, and the rebuttle I kept getting was "but Rooney is so talented, he's a better player". It didn't mean shit because David Villa was still a better striker, because he suited that position more.
D
People spend too much time being offended by other's opinion that they outright patronise others by calling it "wrong" or a vacuum of logic.
Do they now? I literally spent 3 minutes of my previous time calling out a factually incorrect post as incorrect. That's not me getting offended or being patronising. It's a poor post getting called out - something that does and should happen all the time here if we want to maintain standards. Next time I make a 3 line post calling out the next loon who calls Messi the 10th best player on the planet (again, factually incorrect), I hope precious posters dont call me offended and patronising. Whatever will I do with all the judging!?


But my logic isn't based on just an "odd average game or two". You haven't read my posts if I said it was just in 1-2 games, or even if I rested my argument on that. I obviously didn't.

He's a great talent guilty of prolonged mediocre performances that he should not be doing at his age playing for Manchester United, relative to his talent. There was never anything to clear up, I was always very clear in my posts and you kept claiming I was talking about one off games. I never was.
He clearly not had "prolonged mediocre peformances" or been a mediocre player for us in general. He was brilliant under LVG, a manager he got along with. He was a mix bag between very good and average/decent under Mourinho, a manager he didn't get on with. And now he's having a very good season under Ole, a manager who has had faith in him. If we're judging every young player purely as they were under Mourinho then naturally they're going to come out badly. But whenever we've had faith in him, martial has proven himself to be very good footballer. The problem is that people can't differentiate between their expectations and fact. There is no universe where Martial is average of mediocre. By nearly all metrics he's a very good footballer. The question may be whether he can be the top top player we would want our number 9 to be. And that I hope he proves when the team, service and creativity improves as a whole. If not, then he'll eventually be replaced as our leading number 9. But it won't change the fact that he's indeed a very good footballer.

I am judging him correctly, and he is inconsistent.

Yes, in talent he is one of our better players. But he is also inconsistent in his performances. Too much so for my liking, and others too. Some like yourself don't think that, others do. I don't understand why you can't respect differing opinions.




Jiminez is a better centre forward than Martial. It doesn't matter if Martial is generally more talented, he is just isn't as good as a CF as Jiminez is. I don't care about LW because we are comparing CFs, and I don't care for potential because that's not tangible right now. This reminds me of an age old debate I had when someone was offended I said David Villa was a better CF than Wayne Rooney, and the rebuttle I kept getting was "but Rooney is so talented, he's a better player". It didn't mean shit because David Villa was still a better striker, because he suited that position more.
Nope. He's one of our best performers as is evident from this season. When he and Rashford played together they produced some of our best football. When he and Bruno struck a chord, we played some of best football. Like I said, regardless of whether he fulfills his potential, proves the right number 9 for us, or otherwise, he's currently one of our better player and performers.

And again, there's not much between Martial and Jiminez. Martial is much youny and more skillful with far more room for improvement despite playing at CF so little. Would not swap them. And in addition to comparing them as CFs it's important to compare them as footballers too given they're both also footballers and it's a squad game, and overall martial is better too IMO
 
Last edited:

It's B Rubble

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 24, 2017
Messages
267
That video showcases many improvements in Martial’s game. In my opinion, he’s filling out into his body and a lot stronger than the left sided striker who skinned Squirtel. We’re seeing vast improvement in him holding up the ball with his back to goal and he’s gotten quicker.

What makes him unplayable are his little dekes and feints before receiving the ball one v one. Watching that video, I was amazed at how often defenders are left chasing him due to the awareness of his surroundings combined with that ridiculous dribbling ability. (Foster still having night terrors)

Haven’t been excited by a United player’s skills like that since Ronaldo, although Rashford has quickly become as exciting if not more.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
2,620
Location
Ireland
I have done much more than just providing a clip and referencing a single game. I have been emphasizing that the Wolves game is a classic example while there are many more similar games on the list, and I have posted some ratings which show that it definitely isn't a one-off incident. I have mentioned how Ole keeps complimenting Ighalo for offering what we lack most of the season. All of these point to the fact that Martial isn't currently doing enough as a no. 9. Maybe he'll improve in the future, maybe he'll be better with a better RW, we all hope for that and I never deny these possibilities. I have stressed plenty of times that he'll have all the time and chances he needs when we are still building our squad.

Compared to those compilations which only show one or two touches in the game (which is clearly not enough for me), I think I have presented much more evidence. If you think those 5-min compilations reflecting only the positive sides throughout the whole season are more complete and detailed than my 10-min clip reflecting a single match with both on- and off-the ball moments, then we'll again have to agree to disagree here.
You've provided reference to 2 matches when other people are looking at his performances overall this season. Overall this season he's been very good and looks very polished. You have willingly ignored his great link up and hold up play before Rashford's injury and that makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion on the matter.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
4,747
When Martial gets a chance and when he misses I get disappointed. That's so much faith I have in him to score when he gets a decent chance.
When Rashford gets such a chance and if he scores then I am so happy. If he missed I don't get as disappointed as when Martial misses.
With James I am praying.
With Martial you expect that from him and I would say most times he obliges.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
707
So many opinions about Martial. Is he a title winning striker? Obviously not. But we're not planning on winning the title next season anyways. We need to focus on other positions. With Martial Ighalo Bruno Rashford Greenwood and any RW we sign this summer, looking for goals will be the least of our problems. We shouldn't be chasing a world class striker right now because we can make do without one right now and focus on other positions. In a season or 2 when we should be ready to compete with the best Martial would have had more than enough time to prove whether he deserves to be in the squad or we should get a worldclass striker to take us to the top
 

Rolaholic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2016
Messages
1,429
So many opinions about Martial. Is he a title winning striker? Obviously not. But we're not planning on winning the title next season anyways. We need to focus on other positions. With Martial Ighalo Bruno Rashford Greenwood and any RW we sign this summer, looking for goals will be the least of our problems. We shouldn't be chasing a world class striker right now because we can make do without one right now and focus on other positions. In a season or 2 when we should be ready to compete with the best Martial would have had more than enough time to prove whether he deserves to be in the squad or we should get a worldclass striker to take us to the top
That isn't obvious though given that he's yet to be surrounded by a title winning caliber squad. We haven't fielded a squad of that caliber since Fergie was at the helm so I don't see how it's definitive that he's not capable of becoming that.

There's no striker in the world right now able to carry a team to a title on mainly their own labor, all the best in the world right now (your Lewandowski's, Ronaldo's, Suarez's, Aguero's etc) have all achieved their successes on some of the deepest and best overall squads at the time.
 

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
4,141
Why do statements such as " title winning striker" even means? I mean if we take Firmino in isolation, lay down his numbers ( before his CL goal, he hadn't scored I'm age at home), would he fit in this " title winning striker" bracket? Yet he's factually a CL and PL winning player.

Players regardless of skills, levels etc require to play in a functioning system and team if he's gonna win anything significant. It's as simple as that.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
4,747
That isn't obvious though given that he's yet to be surrounded by a title winning caliber squad. We haven't fielded a squad of that caliber since Fergie was at the helm so I don't see how it's definitive that he's not capable of becoming that.

There's no striker in the world right now able to carry a team to a title on mainly their own labor, all the best in the world right now (your Lewandowski's, Ronaldo's, Suarez's, Aguero's etc) have all achieved their successes on some of the deepest and best overall squads at the time.
Agree with you. Get us a title winning team and if Martial is failing then replace him with a better option.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
707
Why do statements such as " title winning striker" even means? I mean if we take Firmino in isolation, lay down his numbers ( before his CL goal, he hadn't scored I'm age at home), would he fit in this " title winning striker" bracket? Yet he's factually a CL and PL winning player.

Players regardless of skills, levels etc require to play in a functioning system and team if he's gonna win anything significant. It's as simple as that.
It's been said several times that Firmino doesn't actually play as a striker. But Firmino is up there with the top forwards that could fit into Klopp's Liverpool system along with someone like Griezmann

Maybe i shouldn't have said title winning striker but do you think Martial is up there with the other no.9s of europe that can fit into our system? When Ole talks about how he wants his strikers to be, do you think Martial is the best we can do or one of? This is what i mean by when its time to go for the big trophies Martial may have to be replaced that is if he has not improved and become better. Right now though he shouldn't be a concern at all
 
Last edited:

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
2,620
Location
Ireland
Agree with you. Get us a title winning team and if Martial is failing then replace him with a better option.
This is exactly where I come down on the matter, currently he's amongst our best players so we strengthen the positions that need strengthening first. I'm very confident that Martial will hold his own in our future, hopefully title winning, teams. Talk of replacing him now is ludicrous.
 

Handré1990

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
3,519
Location
In hibernation
Why do statements such as " title winning striker" even means? I mean if we take Firmino in isolation, lay down his numbers ( before his CL goal, he hadn't scored I'm age at home), would he fit in this " title winning striker" bracket? Yet he's factually a CL and PL winning player.

Players regardless of skills, levels etc require to play in a functioning system and team if he's gonna win anything significant. It's as simple as that.
Hey man, Firmino hasn’t won a PL! :p
 

KennyBurner

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
1,889
Location
ATL
So many opinions about Martial. Is he a title winning striker? Obviously not. But we're not planning on winning the title next season anyways. We need to focus on other positions. With Martial Ighalo Bruno Rashford Greenwood and any RW we sign this summer, looking for goals will be the least of our problems. We shouldn't be chasing a world class striker right now because we can make do without one right now and focus on other positions. In a season or 2 when we should be ready to compete with the best Martial would have had more than enough time to prove whether he deserves to be in the squad or we should get a worldclass striker to take us to the top
This year he's put up decent numbers playing with lingard/pereira and James. He is definitely a title winning striker whatever that means. We build a title winning squad and Martial will consistently play his part. I also believe we can aim for the title next year with one/two great signings. We are closer than you might think.