Player returns from injury. Caf reaction lets harp on about the now injured Rashford and make Martial out as some kind of victim.
Welcome back Tony. Go score a few lad....
Welcome back Tony. Go score a few lad....
9
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Lies, damn lies and statistics
His injury record is pretty good really. I hope to feck he's back for the Arsenal match as his performances in the No. 9 role have been a rare cause for optimism this season.
Under Jose, Martial played 3940 mins, contributing to 31 goals.
Rashford played 4363 mins, contributing to 26 goals.
So Rashford played 423 mins more than Martial in 2.5 years which is 3.5 games. Also according to transfermarkt, Rashford didn't miss a single league game due to injury, Martial missed 3 games.
If you include cup games then only in cup games, Rashford played 2566 mins contributing to 22 goals.
Martial played 2160 mins contributing to 13 goals.
Again Rashford played 460 mins more than Martial.
So in all competitions,
Rashford - 6929 mins - 28 goals - 20 assists - 144 mins per G+A
Martial - 6046 mins - 27 goals - 17 assists - 137 mins per G+A
Rashford played 883 mins more than Martial. Also Martial scored 4 goals from penalty spot under Jose, Rashford didn't take any penalties.
Just in PL, Martial won 2 penalties, Rashford won 5 penalties.
Whatever you said was true for Rashford too, his development was stalled for 2 years, playing in so many positions. Martial got too much negative response in media was because of Jose who portrayed him as a player who is difficult to handle.
I don't know why people keep downplaying Rashford just to big up Martial. For ManUtd, their contribution is almost same. Both have different strengths and weakness. Martial is more refined in his game though. Anyways, this season they won't even be competing for same position.
No, you are doing it wrong. You should have used separate stats that make it worse so that would fit his agenda. Why only look at it the simple way, make it more complicated and turn it Martial's way?
Also people think Rashford played because he was some golden boy or he is English when we had manager who was Portuguese. The way he handled Martial wasn't good but the reason he played Rashford in more games was because Rashford followed the tactical instructions and also tracked back a lot, which is something Jose wanted.
In 2016-17 and 2017-18, Martial averaged 8.98 kms per 90 mins, Rashford averaged 10.2 kms per 90 mins.
So for Jose, he was getting what he wanted from Rashford.
I don't agree with the way he handled players but the tinfoil hat stuff should stop. We have 2 players who are both first choice players this season.
Talking about tinfoil hat stuff, do we even have a chant for Rashford?
Hard to believe it's not Ronaldo
It's Rashy, you know...
Yeah I agree. Rashford has been mostly dreadful since PSG game but it's took while for the Penny to drop in media. They were all adamant he should play at 9 and he had the skills for it but it's obviously proven not to be the case . In actual truth he's not doing enough to be a automatic starter based on last 6 months but I doubt he would there would be pressure for him to be dropped because it would look very bad after they put all that hype on him. Perhaps he could rediscover himself at RW with less pressure however players shouldn't be shoehorned around the team just for the sake of it, they should force the manager to pick them otherwise accept to be dropped and a different player gets the opportunity.
You would expect superior finishing, touch and creativity to relate to better output over a three year period. We’re not talking about a small sample here. And I watch with my eyes. If you haven’t seen two incredibly inconsistent players who disappear in and out of games then you’re not watching properly. There is very little between the two. People just have their favourites. Martial is better in the air? Anthony Martial? Heading the ball? They’re both shit at it.
Over both’s careers Rashford has a better record than Martial. Martial played mostly as a left winger under Van Gaal as well and has a much better record from that position than he does up front so I wouldn’t agree that to date he was played out of position.
Both players have played under the same managers under the same conditions. Both have been in and out of the team and moved around. In fact Rashford even more so due to the fact he’s been played out on the right more often.
The point being made that for a player superior in every important area it seems there’s not a lot between what they actually do on the pitch. There’s just weird little cults on here for some players.
Personally I think Martial is definitely the better of the two players. Better touch, better dribbling, better link up play, and his peak level (LVG) is much higher. I do like Rashford, and I think his work rate and movement is better. The latter does get criticised harshly here and defended/bigged up unjustifiably by the engish media (was it ogden who recently wrote a ridiculous article about him being our star man/most important player?).
Regardless I do agree that we don't need to praise one while bashing another. They're both ours and I personally think that for their age both are very good footballers who just need some more guidence and a cohesive system to work with, and obviously more consistency and focus from their ends.
I’d say he has a little more talent but has so far, regularly failed to make the most of it. What do we get out of his better dribbling because it’s rare he takes on and beats a player and when he does his ‘creativity’ is often lacking. He’s not a player to pick a pass through a crowded defence or put in a quality cross. He’s better at quick one twos and the like but again they’re rare.
I’d agree with the rest though. They’re two decent to good players and both can be absolutely pointless when they’re having a bad game. I don’t think either will prove to be good enough to be the main man in a title winning team but good enough to be part of a better team.
We get a lot out of his technical quality. It helps the cohesion of the team to have players who excel in tight spaces and can retain and move the ball along despite pressure. These things aren't always reflected in statistics.
Yeah he isn't one to thread a pass but then again he's not a midfielder or a forward named Messi.
I'm not as negative about his peformances thus far. He's what, 23? For his age considering the previous manager and he had issues, I think he's done fine. Obviously his best was undoubtedly under LVG under whom he was exceptional for his age. And he has to kick on now given at this stage he is being paid well and has also been given the number 9 so I suppose it's time to live up the promise we've seen till now (and work on the weaknesses).
Regarding the last sentence. You're probably right. Ideally, I'd have two attackers (One being Sancho) starting alongside Martial, with Rashford and James rotating with any of the three. But much can change over time depending on who develops better.
Rashford's link up play isn't really much worse than Martial, actually I would argue it's not worse at all. Martial is leading the team in unsuccessful touches(every 24.5 minutes), while Rashford is on every 36 minutes. Martial is also one of our most dispossessed players every 33.8 minutes, while Rashford is on 72.3 minutes.
Last year they were pretty close in these stats, but Rashford also played far more minutes and generally made more passes per game(was far more involved than Martial).
Also talking headers, Rashford wins them more generally in games, and he scored 1 header last season(Martial is on 0). The year before they both scored 1 goal each. They are both shite at it, they aren't target man and will never be, but they need to improve their heading
So basically stats proved what pretty much every neutral fan thinks, they are generally on the same level. I am pretty sure majority of Rashford fans think like that too(I am one), but for some reason there are folks who are convinced that Rashford is shite and that Martial is our saviour despite him not proving pretty much anything we haven't seen from Rashford so far. Their link up play is pretty similar, their heading is similar, Martial has better finishing but then Rashford is getting into probably more chances which makes his poor finishing stand out more but in the end they score same number of goals. Their passing is pretty similar, while Rashford has a better movement, runs far more; Martial is better at some other things like dribbling in tight spaces, etc.
Generally, they are both similar players, but lately Rashford's free kicks, long range shots and bit of selfishness have probably ruined Rashford's last 3 years perception despite him being on pretty much same level as Martial's last 3 years.
He also cost us nothing while we paid big money for Martial who also spent half of the time sulking, and was generally more unreliable in terms of injuries, being out of the team due to contract extensions, etc., all being actually his fault and not entirely Mourinho's like many want to portray it.
Last year they were pretty close in these stats, but Rashford also played far more minutes and generally made more passes per game(was far more involved than Martial).
Also talking headers, Rashford wins them more generally in games, and he scored 1 header last season(Martial is on 0). The year before they both scored 1 goal each. They are both shite at it, they aren't target man and will never be, but they need to improve their heading
So basically stats proved what pretty much every neutral fan thinks, they are generally on the same level. I am pretty sure majority of Rashford fans think like that too(I am one), but for some reason there are folks who are convinced that Rashford is shite and that Martial is our saviour despite him not proving pretty much anything we haven't seen from Rashford so far. Their link up play is pretty similar, their heading is similar, Martial has better finishing but then Rashford is getting into probably more chances which makes his poor finishing stand out more but in the end they score same number of goals. Their passing is pretty similar, while Rashford has a better movement, runs far more; Martial is better at some other things like dribbling in tight spaces, etc.
Generally, they are both similar players, but lately Rashford's free kicks, long range shots and bit of selfishness have probably ruined Rashford's last 3 years perception despite him being on pretty much same level as Martial's last 3 years.
He also cost us nothing while we paid big money for Martial who also spent half of the time sulking, and was generally more unreliable in terms of injuries, being out of the team due to contract extensions, etc., all being actually his fault and not entirely Mourinho's like many want to portray it.
Why are you pretending that you’re neutral, almost every post you make about Rashford manages to find a way to put down Martial. Add that to you’re language in the final paragraph and it’s pretty obvious you’re not a fan of Martial so it’s a bit rich to act as if you’re unbiased.
There’s so many fans that feel the need to bash one to praise the other and vice versa, it’s ridiculously childish.
Can't wait for him to be back, hopefully he doesn't take too long to warm up
Are people seriously arguing that Rashford is a better striker than Martial?
I’m not sure that we do. He gives the ball away a lot. He definitely has a better touch than Rashford but I’m not convinced it leads to us being a much better team. And Rashford is more suited to the counter attacking that we seem to want to play. Currently Martial is the slightly better player provided he’s motivated. But the disparity in how they are rated or treated on this forum is staggering given the minimal difference between the two at the moment.
He has a better goal scoring record when playing up front than Martial has. If Martial can maintain the form he showed in the first couple of games that may change. For the time being though he is until Martial proves otherwise.
And there are people on this forum that think that counter attacking football is the best approach to football for having success.
Rashford decisionmaking, inability to use his weaker foot, shots made from stupid positions etc makes it understandable as for why Martial is seen as the better player to play as the main striker. And lets not include his positioning when dropping deep, time on the ball and less than impressive close control.
Rashford is closer to being a one trick pony like Tony Valencia than being an all action striker like Firminho, Lewandowski or Suarez.
Martial had an initial good 2 games but still has so much to prove this season, he’s been quite injury prone over his whole tenure. If he has a good season then I’m sure people will rate him to lead the line but as I said he has so much to prove.
Fans are right in thinking right now we need a new striker. Martial has to disprove that.
I took the stats from transfermarkt. I think you're missing my point and ignoring context. To say Rashford has had similar treatment to Martial is bending the truth just a bit.
I highlighted both of their premier league stats under Mourinho as that was our main competition.
Rashford played 18 matches more over the years (1100 more mins) and still Martial outscored him. Martial is 2 years older than Rashford. You think it was healthy and okay for someone to be getting played much less than a player 2 years younger than him?
In 15/16 a 19 year old Martial carried us that season. Our plan solely revolved around giving the ball to Martial he was that good. I'm still waiting to see Rashford have that level of influence on us as a team yet.
I dont even need to resort to stats. I have my eyes and Martial is the much bigger talent. I'm not even trying to downplay Rashford to big up Martial anyway, but when people fail to include the wider context of these past 2 1/2 years I guess it looks like that.
Have I woke up in a world where Martial has a really good left foot or something? It’s not a world in familiar with. At the moment Martial is being overrated and Rashford is being underrated. There’s not much between them, biases aside.
You counted complete 2018-19 season when they played half a season under Jose. I counted the mins game by game for that season, so no, Rashford didnt play 1100 more mins under Jose, he played around 430 mins more than Martial. Martial outscored him but he also took 1 or 2 penalties, also Rashford won more penalties than Martial in PL.
I mean the had similar treatment when it comes to mins played, positions played and also the roles they played. I agree on the other part, Jose was overly harsh with Martial and I always said, I completely disagree with how Jose treated him. He should have been first choice player.
Saying that, I can see why Jose chose Rashford bit more, I posted the distance covered, tbh Martial's distance covered is very poor, especially when he played as a winger his distance covered was something you expect from pure 9s.
It doesn't matter if Martial has more talent than Messi, what really matters is what they show on the pitch. In their ManUtd careers, there isn't much between Martial and Rashford. Martial is also 2 years older than Rashford and in couple of months Martial will be 24. Maybe about time we stop using talent and expect more from them.
If the team is solely playing a low possession counter attacking style of play, then there is not much between them, and their differences are not that big and i would prefer Rashford between the two given his willingness to run on everything. If yoy are playing against balanced teams that does not allow much space around their own box, then Rashford struggles and offers little more than low probability long shots. Martial can, while not being the best at it, play reasonably well against low sitting teams given that he is not as dependent on space as Rashford and is the better player when it comes to combining with the other players.
His numbers are better, but he contributes so little to overall play.
Martial FC in full force again I see, Christ.
Ah my mistake, thank you for pointing it out. Adjusting for the half season, Rashford played 13 more pl matches & 415 more mins under Mourinho. That works out to 30 mins more over each of those 13 matches so quite a significant amount still. Martial is meant to be the older player, yet his development was being stunted in favour of Rashford. That was my main gripe with how Mourinho treated Martial.
That's the thing though, Martial is naturally a 9, so anyone using his distance covered on the wing as a stick to beat him with is being disingenuous. You can see the difference in both of their builds just by looking at them. Rashford is tall and very skinny, whereas Martial has a more stockier build.
I agree there comes a point where you have to translate the talent into performances, but you have to factor in the coaches influence and that Martial's development has not progressed since 15/16 under Van Gaal.
Who are we talking about here?
Rashford played around 430 mins more, that's around 4.5 games. Not sure how much that had impact on Martial's development.
You are just giving excuses for Martial when Rashford also had same issues, same coaches and even used as work horse winger. Both had their development stagnated for various reasons.
Lets go with what you are saying as true, Martial is a 9 so we shouldn't use distance covered on the wing. When that's the case how can you expect Jose to trust Martial when he wanted his winger to track back and why are we comparing Rashford here when we should be saying signing Lukaku and Zlatan stunted Martial's development.
I was talking about Rashford.
I can't remember Rashford ever scoring a goal on his left foot similar to Martial's vs Wolves. Can you? Not much between them? Depends what kind of setup you have. Martial has better left foot, better hold-up, creativity, heading. How is pointing that out a problem?
Ah was gonna say! I agree he contributes little to general play but his numbers aren't even better too. Look them up. Martial has better g/a per mins ratio.
As a CF? I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm sure you're right. Martial is a far better modern forward, it's not even really close.
His goal against Bournemouth last season on his left was vet well taken too. Had a very good shot from an angle against spurs, I think, I’m preseason as well. I remember Rashford scoring with his left in the Europe League against Celts Vigo and he had a good finish off his left in the champions league against CSKA Moscow last season. I think Martial edges him in this department but it’s close.
The context i'm trying to highlight is, in the important matches, Martial was the majority of the time unfavoured. Why is it giving excuses to include that?
Well as you can tell, i was not the biggest fan of Mourinho's time here to put it mildly. I completely agree. I hated the short-term'ism of their signings. Maybe i got a bit off-track with comparing against Rashford but it was originally in reply to someone else comparing him to Rashford.
We have completely messed up the young players, not just Martial/Rashford. Shaw too. Something wrong with the club, so many young players haven't improved once they join the club or make the breakthrough.
Also Martial would have been ideal CF for Jose, he offers everything he wanted from CF. He can hold the ball, can take on defenders and also have very good conversion rate.
His injury really was just bad timing IMO. Just one of those things that can happen early in a season. Hopefully hes back for Arsenal, but among everyone panicking about our attack, I really think he'll have a great season and we'll see him as a set and forget #9. Not to say everything will get fixed, but with Pogba in midfield and Martial up top, it has great potential to work for us and I believe they'll show it over the season. Rashford on the left, James on the right with Greenwood rotating in the front 3 for whoever is injured (and others being moved around).
We're a black hole for talent it seems. Which considering how much youth we have, pains me a lot.
Everyone hated LVG it seems, but i actually was a big fan of his tenure. I could see the progress. He was actually developing our players and no-one could argue we didn't have a clear & coherent tactical setup. It was obvious to watch. Something that we haven't come close to seeing since.
Mourinho most favoured sheer height and bulk, who cares about technical skills... signing Lukaku to play as the target-man says it all doesn't it?
No, overall, Martial's numbers are better, which when you consider how messed about he has been, is pretty impressive.
Not a man mountain though.
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