[Andersons Dietician]

Really good observation and one I concur with. This happens time and time again .. was why I was very keen we got an Eriksen type player because his movement is too clever for some of our players and to take advantage of that we need a player who plays with their head up to make the pass instantly it is on not a second later when it has gone. Against Perth James had a chance to play him in early when the GK had left his right post with a significant gap and all Martial had to do was side foot the pass into the net as his body shape was ready to strike but James elected to take an extra touch and pass it across the 6 yard box. Martial was then hammered by the likes of Luckhurst for not being there. The GK had the angle on the cross covered. It is why Martial was the most clinical finisher in the PL last season.

Many fans will disagree I am sure but I see an excellent reader of the game someone who sees a couple of moves ahead. The only forward we have with that type of game. Ole has got it. He knows the player he has and what needs to be done hence the type of players he is trying to get in. If he had an attitude problem then I think he would have been shipped out long ago.

I remember that James moment. I don’t think I would word it as in his movement is too intelligent for his team mates because the 2 Lingard instances that pop to mind Lingard is looking at him and just for whatever reason refuses to pass and holds and holds the ball. It felt like an eternity and the pass was still on both times and he just never passes.

I would like to see him do more of what Greenwood did for his goal because it does bug me that Martial seems to prefer to hang back for rebounds or cutbacks but in a tight situation in the box with the ball at his feet he is our best forward at that.

Reading the game I’d also agree with as ever since he has been here I think he has been really good at covering other peoples positions when they’ve pushed on and their is a weakness. Some might say that is laziness and he just can’t be bothered running back upfront but I’ve seen him in LB position trying to organise defence and pushing people forward so who knows.

 

[haram]

Many fans will disagree I am sure but I see an excellent reader of the game someone who sees a couple of moves ahead. The only forward we have with that type of game. Ole has got it. He knows the player he has and what needs to be done hence the type of players he is trying to get in. If he had an attitude problem then I think he would have been shipped out long ago.

Many fans will disagree because you just plucked this out of your arse. Mental gymnastics to defend his poor movement. It’s not working anymore.

I am also seeing people pointing out bog standard moments of him making a run to prove that his movement isn’t bad .

 

[Raven]

Many fans will disagree because you just plucked this out of your arse. Mental gymnastics to defend his poor movement. It’s not working anymore.

I am also seeing people pointing out bog standard moments of him making a run to prove that his movement isn’t bad .

I'm not sure why you're bothering to continue harping on about this. Clearly some people see movement in a different way to you. Move on.

 

[haram]

I'm not sure why you're bothering to continue harping on about this. Clearly some people see movement in a different way to you. Move on.

Clearly people are still looking for excuses for him.

 

[acnumber9]

Martial’s movement is too smart for everyone to be fair. It’s so subtle it looks like he’s barely moving at all.

 

[AgentP]

Martial’s movement is too smart for everyone to be fair. It’s so subtle it looks like he’s barely moving at all.

He's like Drax in that regard.

 

[Raven]

Clearly people are still looking for excuses for him.

The term broken record springs to mind.

 

[K13]

I remember that James moment. I don’t think I would word it as in his movement is too intelligent for his team mates because the 2 Lingard instances that pop to mind Lingard is looking at him and just for whatever reason refuses to pass and holds and holds the ball. It felt like an eternity and the pass was still on both times and he just never passes.

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part - what I mean't is that perhaps the passer does not see the same outcome. You have a split second to make the decision and get your body in the right position to do what you need to do so when the pass does not come off you can be left looking flat footed.

I would like to see him do more of what Greenwood did for his goal because it does bug me that Martial seems to prefer to hang back for rebounds or cutbacks but in a tight situation in the box with the ball at his feet he is our best forward at that.

Absolutely - Ole has already identified that and is working on it so fair point.

 

[Canagel]

Do you not think his 'style' is a problem if we're going for a high-energy, pressing style of play this season? Is he not capable of running more off the ball to make sure he gets a spot in the team? His first season, he was brilliant on the ball. As soon as he received it he was running at his man, trying things. Now it seems labored. It's like he's lost the spark to his play.

Yes it could be a problem to fit him in if we want to play like that. I said it a few days ago already. He prefer the ball to his feet to be at his best and work in tight space. Most of ours attackers prefer a longer ball to chase. (Rashford, Lukaku, James..)
But it's not a problem with him specifically. Different styles suit different players. It doesn't mean the player is crap or has no motivation which is my issue with some posters. They see only one way of playing and come out with character assassinations of the player because he doesn't fit it . Prime Mata wouldn't fit either but he's not a bad player(unlike current declined one). And I would rather watch this kind of football. Give and go's, one touch football to slice open the defence.

 

[haram]

Yes it could be a problem to fit him in if we want to play like that. I said it a few days ago already. He prefer the ball to his feet to be at his best and work in tight space. Most of ours attackers prefer a longer ball to chase. (Rashford, Lukaku, James..)
But it's not a problem with him specifically. Different styles suit different players. It doesn't mean the player is crap or has no motivation which is my issue with some posters. They see only one way of playing and come out with character assassinations of the player because he doesn't fit it . Prime Mata wouldn't fit either but he's not a bad player(unlike current declined one). And I would rather watch this kind of football. Give and go's, one touch football to slice open the defence.

Having poor off the ball movement is not a style.

 

[Canagel]

Having poor off the ball movement is not a style.

There's more than one way of moving. and even if you assume he has bad movement I doubt he will change a lot just like other players that might have bad touch etc will not change because it's part of their DNA

 

[haram]

There's more than one way of moving. and even if you assume he has bad movement I doubt he will change a lot just like other players that might have bad touch etc will not change because it's part of their DNA

So then he's peaked and he'll never be good enough.

 

[roonster09]

There's more than one way of moving. and even if you assume he has bad movement I doubt he will change a lot just like other players that might have bad touch etc will not change because it's part of their DNA

It's not just movement, when the team is set up to play in 1 particular way, then the team can achieve that when every player is in sync. Looks like the set up is to press high, win the ball in final third and every player to work hard. Martial is young player and 'he is that type of player' shouldn't be the excuse. He is very talented and all the tools to become superb player for us. He was signed 4 years ago and about time he steps up big time. Club has so much confidence in him that they have ignored previous manager request to sell him and then offered him huge contract.

He isn't Zlatan type physically big player where he can't adapt. For the better of his career he should change his work rate.

On the movement, it's not non existent as few wants everyone to believe, it's clearly something he can work on and improve.

Also his numbers are good. For a player who plays less than 50% of total mins, he scores and assist goals at very good rate. It's just that his overall game should improve to help the team.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I was reading this and wondering how it was possible for Martial to have so many (comparative) goals and assists with such poor movement. So I looked up his goals and assists for 17/18 and 18/19.

17/18 goals and assists:


18/19 goals:



Doesn't really scream extremely poor movement to me.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He's like Drax in that regard.

I was thinking the exact same thing

 

[Andersons Dietician]

@roonster09 I think everyone would probably agree we want more aggression and intensity from him but pressing isn’t just all about working hard and getting in peoples faces. You have to block passing lanes so that the opposition have no option and either punt it to no one or try and make the pass under pressure where hopefully we have someone positioned to cut it out.

People seem to think just running people down like a Rashford or Lingard would do is all it takes. The pressing yesterday wasn’t for me as good as the first pre season game and Rashford himself even said as such but that it requires them all to get a lot fitter and maybe they are a bit tired now.

The first game Martial closed down and blocked passing lanes with good positioning, if we get in to the season and he’s lethargic about closing down and not blocking passing lanes then we’ll have a major problem with him but for the moment he seems to be doing everything that is asked of him even if some can’t see it.

 

[Hughes35]

Loads of talent in his feet but just nothing upstairs I don't think. Can't see him changing.

 

[roonster09]

@roonster09 I think everyone would probably agree we want more aggression and intensity from him but pressing isn’t just all about working hard and getting in peoples faces. You have to block passing lanes so that the opposition have no option and either punt it to no one or try and make the pass under pressure where hopefully we have someone positioned to cut it out.

People seem to think just running people down like a Rashford or Lingard would do is all it takes. The pressing yesterday wasn’t for me as good as the first pre season game and Rashford himself even said as such but that it requires them all to get a lot fitter and maybe they are a bit tired now.

The first game Martial closed down and blocked passing lanes with good positioning, if we get in to the season and he’s lethargic about closing down and not blocking passing lanes then we’ll have a major problem with him but for the moment he seems to be doing everything that is asked of him even if some can’t see it.

I haven't said he has not done, I was responding to @abdo99 's post that "that's Martial style of play". It shouldn't be the excuse, especially for a young player. Last season he was among the worst players in distance covered and he played all season as winger. That's not good enough, yes it was under Jose where preparation wasn't good but his average was around same as Lukaku who played as 9 (usually they are the ones who cover least distance).

Also yeah, pressing isn't good or cohesive enough as our players are still learning, it should take time to achieve good level. When you are pressing as a team, if 1 player doesn't do that, then it just takes out 2-3 players out of the game as the passing lane opens up. So everyone should be in sync and work harder for the team.

When the player is way too talented and produces numbers that just shits on everyone, then team can carry the player who isn't working as hard as everyone. But for a young player whose still has achieved nothing (in bigger scheme), there shouldn't be any excuse.

I won't be overly harsh on him as we had completely different style under Jose, so this season will be a very good test to see where he is, when it comes to working for the team.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I was reading this and wondering how it was possible for Martial to have so many (comparative) goals and assists with such poor movement. So I looked up his goals and assists for 17/18 and 18/19.

17/18 goals and assists:


18/19 goals:



Doesn't really scream extremely poor movement to me.

So you are using highlights of him scoring or assisting to prove that he doesn't have poor movement??? Nobody said he "never" moves. Obviously he does. Just not enough. And if he did, that highlight reel would be a lot longer. Not only that, but of all of those goals and assists, how many of them came from him making a wingers run around the outside of his fullback with a ball slipped through and him picking it up and crossing/passing/shooting from beyond his defender? Zero. He's a "ball to feet" type player. I'd just like to see him mix it up. No hate on the guy. I think he's very talented. He just doesn't see the game as well as he should...

 

[Raven]

I was reading this and wondering how it was possible for Martial to have so many (comparative) goals and assists with such poor movement. So I looked up his goals and assists for 17/18 and 18/19.

17/18 goals and assists:


18/19 goals:



Doesn't really scream extremely poor movement to me.

I take it you don't know how it works around here. Martial has poor movement and if you say otherwise, you support him more than the club.

 

[Raven]

So you are using highlights of him scoring or assisting to prove that he doesn't have poor movement??? Nobody said he "never" moves. Obviously he does. Just not enough. And if he did, that highlight reel would be a lot longer. Not only that, but of all of those goals and assists, how many of them came from him making a wingers run around the outside of his fullback with a ball slipped through and him picking it up and crossing/passing/shooting from beyond his defender? Zero. He's a "ball to feet" type player. I'd just like to see him mix it up. No hate on the guy. I think he's very talented. He just doesn't see the game as well as he should...

Except a number of posters have said his movement is "non-existent".

 

[He'sRaldo]

So you are using highlights of him scoring or assisting to prove that he doesn't have poor movement??? Nobody said he "never" moves. Obviously he does. Just not enough. And if he did, that highlight reel would be a lot longer. Not only that, but of all of those goals and assists, how many of them came from him making a wingers run around the outside of his fullback with a ball slipped through and him picking it up and crossing/passing/shooting from beyond his defender? Zero. He's a "ball to feet" type player. I'd just like to see him mix it up. No hate on the guy. I think he's very talented. He just doesn't see the game as well as he should...

I'm saying the quality of his movement doesn't seem poor. I never talked about the volume, because that could be a tactical thing, especially with such a defensive coach like Jose. In the video, he made quite a few clever movements, a lot even better than the winger's run which just requires speed and timing.

I do get your point though that you would like to see him vary it up, and I think with a more fluid front line we just might see that. Every time he's played in a fluid front line he had the best movement out of all the strikers.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

So you are using highlights of him scoring or assisting to prove that he doesn't have poor movement??? Nobody said he "never" moves. Obviously he does. Just not enough. And if he did, that highlight reel would be a lot longer. Not only that, but of all of those goals and assists, how many of them came from him making a wingers run around the outside of his fullback with a ball slipped through and him picking it up and crossing/passing/shooting from beyond his defender? Zero. He's a "ball to feet" type player. I'd just like to see him mix it up. No hate on the guy. I think he's very talented. He just doesn't see the game as well as he should...

I get what you’re meaning as in he doesn’t attack the space in behind a fullback enough when he is playing on the wing but the conversation has moved on to the quality of his movement not quantity and if you watch both videos many of the goals are down to a great bit of movement by himself in a strikers position.

Which some have been claiming he can’t do because he doesn’t move or doesn’t have the intelligence to make good runs where in that poster is providing proof of good bits of movement.

Saw someone also post saying you can’t imagine him making a run like James did yesterday to keep up with Rashford. See goal vs Swansea for that.

Anyway I need to get out of this thread before more people start getting huffy and saying people defending Martial support him more than the club.

 

[haram]

I was reading this and wondering how it was possible for Martial to have so many (comparative) goals and assists with such poor movement. So I looked up his goals and assists for 17/18 and 18/19.

17/18 goals and assists:


18/19 goals:



Doesn't really scream extremely poor movement to me.

There is a good run against Arsenal, apart from that where are you seeing good movement? Pointing to a few goals means nothing anyway, in games he doesn't do it well or enough.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Except a number of posters have said his movement is "non-existent".

I guess they should take into consideration that some people take every word so litteraly....smh

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I get what you’re meaning as in he doesn’t attack the space in behind a fullback enough when he is playing on the wing but the conversation has moved on to the quality of his movement not quantity and if you watch both videos many of the goals are down to a great bit of movement by himself in a strikers position.

Which some have been claiming he can’t do because he doesn’t move or doesn’t have the intelligence to make good runs where in that poster is providing proof of good bits of movement.

Saw someone also post saying you can’t imagine him making a run like James did yesterday to keep up with Rashford. See goal vs Swansea for that.

Anyway I need to get out of this thread before more people start getting huffy and saying people defending Martial support him more than the club.

I think what people want is more end product. Let's face it, that wasn't a very long highlight reel and if he had more movement then he would produce more. Of course there's going to be movement when he scores or assists. But those numbers are very low and more movement would give him better stats...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I'm saying the quality of his movement doesn't seem poor. I never talked about the volume, because that could be a tactical thing, especially with such a defensive coach like Jose. In the video, he made quite a few clever movements, a lot even better than the winger's run which just requires speed and timing.

I do get your point though that you would like to see him vary it up, and I think with a more fluid front line we just might see that. Every time he's played in a fluid front line he had the best movement out of all the strikers.

Of course the movement is good in the times that he scores or assists. But there just isn't enough of it. If there were, then his highlight reel would be a lot longer...

 

[Camilo]

He's probably still the player with the most 'fans' in the club. Says a lot about his talent.

Probably says more about his effort. If he tried more we'd probably see the limited footballer he is more clearly.

 

[He'sRaldo]

There is a good run against Arsenal, apart from that where are you seeing good movement? Pointing to a few goals means nothing anyway, in games he doesn't do it well or enough.

This is the type of football LVG bought him for:


You can see he has good bits of movement here, and he's playing his natural possession-based game. He was never really the 'constantly run in behind' type, so you can definitely tell he's had to adapt to two new coaches now with completely different ways of playing. With the way Ole wants to play, where he's not stuck on the wing feeding a target man, I think he'll be quite good.

 

[Raven]

I guess they should take into consideration that some people take every word so litteraly....smh

Either that, or you could not say that nobody says he "never" moves, because that's clearly false. The fact that different players move in different ways, really is flying over the head of a lot of posters on here. Could he be a more aggressive and intense? Absolutely, I'd love to see that, but his movement is good, just isn't the same as a Rashford or a Lingard.

 

[haram]

This is the type of football LVG bought him for:


You can see he has good bits of movement here, and he's playing his natural possession-based game. He was never really the 'constantly run in behind' type, so you can definitely tell he's had to adapt to two new coaches now with completely different ways of playing. With the way Ole wants to play, where he's not stuck on the wing feeding a target man, I think he'll be quite good.

He's been shite under Ole.

 

[Canagel]

It's not just movement, when the team is set up to play in 1 particular way, then the team can achieve that when every player is in sync. Looks like the set up is to press high, win the ball in final third and every player to work hard. Martial is young player and 'he is that type of player' shouldn't be the excuse. He is very talented and all the tools to become superb player for us. He was signed 4 years ago and about time he steps up big time. Club has so much confidence in him that they have ignored previous manager request to sell him and then offered him huge contract.

He isn't Zlatan type physically big player where he can't adapt. For the better of his career he should change his work rate.

On the movement, it's not non existent as few wants everyone to believe, it's clearly something he can work on and improve.

Also his numbers are good. For a player who plays less than 50% of total mins, he scores and assist goals at very good rate. It's just that his overall game should improve to help the team.

. I'm not saying he couldn't be effective in the system but some system suit a player more than another system. That's quite normal. His lack of energy and working rate is very exaggerated - the aim is to close the passing lane like you said which don't really depend on lots of running but where you're supposed to run. Even a slow and tall player can be coached to do it but it's not going to change that he's better in a system where he is contesting for more long balls.
What he does well he should be encouraged to do more of it instead of doing a full 360 and become like Tevez that's my point.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Of course the movement is good in the times that he scores or assists. But there just isn't enough of it. If there were, then his highlight reel would be a lot longer...

Perhaps, but I'm sure that will come with maturity and consistency in his game (and hopefully our style of play). No need to worry about him, he'll be a good player.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I think what people want is more end product. Let's face it, that wasn't a very long highlight reel and if he had more movement then he would produce more. Of course there's going to be movement when he scores or assists. But those numbers are very low and more movement would give him better stats...

I think many would agree on this but to be fair last year I saw he and Lukaku make many very good runs which were ignored and it’s something that has been happening for most of Martials time here. In general we haven’t been a very good team and where the strikers have played their part in it as well they haven’t really been given the chances or options over the last few years due to how terrible our teams as a whole have been.

One game that sticks out to me is against Wigan where Martial played upfront by himself and the team played like he was Zlatan pumping long balls to him with his back to goal which he was supposed to try and fight against 2 CB’s to win with no support around him. He was hooked by the genius that was Jose around about half time I think. Generally managers have been useless in not understanding their players and our players brain dead if they think that was the way to play with that particular player.

Hopefully Ole can fix the disjointed nature of our play and get midfielders that can and will release the ball when our forwards make the run.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He's been shite under Ole.

It's been a minute. No way you watched that video just now. Is there a point in continuing the conversation if you're not gonna take a look at what I posted?

 

[haram]

People trying to convince themselves that having poor off the movement is a style or that he has good movement, it's just that people don't understand are new ones. Keep churning them out lads.

 

[haram]

It's been a minute. No way you watched that video just now. Is there a point in continuing the conversation if you're not gonna take a look at what I posted?

A system where he was the main outlet and we moved the ball to use his strengths 1v1. I know what he is good and what he isn't, people are just lying to themselves now.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Either that, or you could not say that nobody says he "never" moves, because that's clearly false. The fact that different players move in different ways, really is flying over the head of a lot of posters on here. Could he be a more aggressive and intense? Absolutely, I'd love to see that, but his movement is good, just isn't the same as a Rashford or a Lingard.

So when somoene says that he "never moves" in your head that means that they think he just stands in one spot for 90 minutes? Got it...smh

 

[Canagel]

People trying to convince themselves that having poor off the movement is a style or that he has good movement, it's just that people don't understand are new ones. Keep churning them out lads.

His success will depend on how good he gets with the ball at his feet, not some imaginary bad movement.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Lowest distance run out of all other attackers and 2nd lowest sprints (next to Mata who is always moving) out of all the attackers. It's a very telling stat...