[Raven]

that kind of stuff is hopefully getting ironed out of his game behind the scenes before it all finally comes together and he reaches the very top level but im not really seeing much progression in his all round game. It looks like he’s being told to be more selfish and to stay forward. I’m being honest if we keep attacking like this we aren’t going to win the EL even if we go all out. That’s a very poor ROI considering we will be fielding the most expensive and well paid team in the competition, by far. Our lads need to stop waiting for Bruno to do it and start using each other.

I can imagine that he's being instructed to stay forward alright but I can't imagine he's being told to try and dribble through 4 or 5 people (including Martial). It's a shame because if he popped off those passes, he could have moved into space and there's a very good chance Martial completes the 1 - 2 and Rashford has a good chance.

 

[ghaliboy]

I believe these two are part of what's happening.

He's playing football?

His movement has always been awful, at least he's adding another string to his bow by being solid on the ball as a striker. The finishing he can get back, the movement... look I'd arguably say that ship has sailed on him improving it but if you can add back to goal with finishing he can increase his goal tally.

 

[Sunny Jim]

The movement in the box is just not good enough for a striker. Greenwood has the ball on his right and the only plausible option for him to cross is to the near post but Martial doesn't read it and is just stuck between some defenders behind the action.

Rashford has the ball on the edge of the area as a winger and Martial is coming right up to him for one-two's. Nobody in the box. These examples rack up every game, his instincts are not right for the nr.9 position.

The problem is ....there is hardly any movement.

 

[G-MUFC]

I can only echo the many comments which say that Greenwood should play more than Martial.

Martial's goal return this season should not be acceptable for a Man Utd striker. We paid £50M for this guy and he should now be in the peak of his career. Unfortunately he's getting less goals than McTominay which says it all.

 

[I'm David Moyes damnit]

Granted Martial’s had a poor season, but I think much of the criticism for last night’s performance is harsh.

He received very little service from Fred & Matic (unsurprisingly as this isn’t a strength of either) and VDB given his complete anonymity. Then Bruno wasn’t as influential as usual after coming on. We all know that Cavani is more of a classic number 9 than Tony, yet he had even less influence after taking on the CF role.

Greenwood and Rashford saw more of the ball than Martial as we really overdid going through the wings, firstly due to the lack of imagination behind the front 3, and secondly the congestion in central areas due to West Ham’s setup forcing us to go wide. Yet Rashford was extremely wasteful, whereas Greenwood was decent and probably on a par with Martial overall, but with more opportunities to influence proceedings.

Also, Martial often (and rightly) receives criticism for his lack of movement, but I noticed a number of times last night where he got himself in good positions but was completely ignored.

He did fluff one big chance when he miscued the cross that ended up falling to Rashford. The other 2 chances were hardly sitters due to having little time to set himself.

One thing that did frustrate me though was his extremely conservative use of the ball. This is all well and good when he has his back to goal in the CF position and brings in others with short passes, but the amount of times he had possession on the wing and paused for a few seconds before playing a 3 yard back or sideways pass was infuriating. He’s seemed reluctant to take defenders on for a while but it was even more pronounced against West Ham.

Overall, it was a 6/10 performance but in circumstances that a lot of top, top no 9s would’ve struggled in too. I think his form is slowly returning but consistency remains lacking.

 

[OldTrevil]

Granted Martial’s had a poor season, but I think much of the criticism for last night’s performance is harsh.

He received very little service from Fred & Matic (unsurprisingly as this isn’t a strength of either) and VDB given his complete anonymity. Then Bruno wasn’t as influential as usual after coming on. We all know that Cavani is more of a classic number 9 than Tony, yet he had even less influence after taking on the CF role.

Greenwood and Rashford saw more of the ball than Martial as we really overdid going through the wings, firstly due to the lack of imagination behind the front 3, and secondly the congestion in central areas due to West Ham’s setup forcing us to go wide. Yet Rashford was extremely wasteful, whereas Greenwood was decent and probably on a par with Martial overall, but with more opportunities to influence proceedings.

Also, Martial often (and rightly) receives criticism for his lack of movement, but I noticed a number of times last night where he got himself in good positions but was completely ignored.

He did fluff one big chance when he miscued the cross that ended up falling to Rashford. The other 2 chances were hardly sitters due to having little time to set himself.

One thing that did frustrate me though was his extremely conservative use of the ball. This is all well and good when he has his back to goal in the CF position and brings in others with short passes, but the amount of times he had possession on the wing and paused for a few seconds before playing a 3 yard back or sideways pass was infuriating. He’s seemed reluctant to take defenders on for a while but it was even more pronounced against West Ham.

Overall, it was a 6/10 performance but in circumstances that a lot of top, top no 9s would’ve struggled in too. I think his form is slowly returning but consistency remains lacking.

Cavani came on at CF about halfway in the second half, playing with a better midfield, and performed worse than Martial had done. And the latter's performance at LWF was much improved from Rashford's. The reality remains, other than movement in the box, Martial is better than Cavani at all other CF attributes. And other than pace and hogging the ball, better than Rashy at LWF.

You point about Anthony's movement, it didn't just happen against West Ham. It has been a theme for most games he's played this season, constantly making well timed runs in behind or beating his marker to come in deep and provide a passing option through the lines, but 8 times out of 10 getting ignored. His movement inside the box has room to improve, but criticisms about his movement as CF during build up, and laziness, have always been myths even if you go back to his performances during LvG era.

Him not taking the initiative on the wing is not true at all. Wherever he is, he more often than not passes the ball forward if there's a teammate in a better position, carries it if there's space to move into and passes it off at the right time with the right weight for the receiver, and will take his man on if he's defended one on one. However if he receives the ball and is surrounded by 2 or 3 players, he often takes the sensible option to lay it off to the side or back if necessary, and then moves to create space.

Rashford is your guy if you're looking for someone who more often than not will attempt dribbling through 3 players, pass when he feels like and ignore those he wants, and still get picked for the next game.

If I rated harshly and gave Martial a 6/10 for the West Ham performance, then Mason gets no more than a 5, Cavani a 4 and Rashford a 3. Given that Martial recently scored a brace and never even saw the pitch the following game, I no longer expect our forwards to be selected based on merit of their performances or goals scored. Ole having been a forward perhaps has other overriding metrics he's using from training or the changing room.

 

[Stacks]

Cavani came on at CF about halfway in the second half, playing with a better midfield, and performed worse than Martial had done. And the latter's performance at LWF was much improved from Rashford's. The reality remains, other than movement in the box, Martial is better than Cavani at all other CF attributes. And other than pace and hogging the ball, better than Rashy at LWF.

You point about Anthony's movement, it didn't just happen against West Ham. It has been a theme for most games he's played this season, constantly making well timed runs in behind or beating his marker to come in deep and provide a passing option through the lines, but 8 times out of 10 getting ignored. His movement inside the box has room to improve, but criticisms about his movement as CF during build up, and laziness, have always been myths even if you go back to his performances during LvG era.

Him not taking the initiative on the wing is not true at all. Wherever he is, he more often than not passes the ball forward if there's a teammate in a better position, carries it if there's space to move into and passes it off at the right time with the right weight for the receiver, and will take his man on if he's defended one on one. However if he receives the ball and is surrounded by 2 or 3 players, he often takes the sensible option to lay it off to the side or back if necessary, and then moves to create space.

Rashford is your guy if you're looking for someone who more often than not will attempt dribbling through 3 players, pass when he feels like and ignore those he wants, and still get picked for the next game.

If I rated harshly and gave Martial a 6/10 for the West Ham performance, then Mason gets no more than a 5, Cavani a 4 and Rashford a 3. Given that Martial recently scored a brace and never even saw the pitch the following game, I no longer expect our forwards to be selected based on merit of their performances or goals scored. Ole having been a forward perhaps has other overriding metrics he's using from training or the changing room.

I thought Martial looked hungry and dangerous when he came on left wing. I would not say he is better finisher than Cavani as Cavani can also use his head. He is certainly not better LWF than Rashford as I doubt he would score 20 and assist 15. Martial's attributes are a bit overrated on here. You have to be able to deliver on these attibures consistently for them to be a strength.

If anything he (Martial) should be kept as he can cover both LW (compete with Rashford) and also CF (compete with Cavani). Still not sure I would bet on "Anto" keeping a Harry Kane out of the 9 position though

 

[OldTrevil]

I thought Martial looked hungry and dangerous when he came on left wing. I would not say he is better finisher than Cavani as Cavani can also use his head. He is certainly not better LWF than Rashford as I doubt he would score 20 and assist 15. Martial's attributes are a bit overrated on here. You have to be able to deliver on these attibures consistently for them to be a strength.

If anything he (Martial) should be kept as he can cover both LW (compete with Rashford) and also CF (compete with Cavani). Still not sure I would bet on "Anto" keeping a Harry Kane out of the 9 position though

Martial can finish with his head. In fact I've seen him score far more physically and technically difficult and impressive headers than Cavani. The question is whether he will have Luke and Marcus tripping over themselves to properly cross to him for tap-in headers.

In terms of goals and assists, Martial can easily clear 20 and 15 in a attack system that consistently plays as a unit and looks for each other. In a system that rewards ball hogging and shooting haphazardly, yeah Rashford will get top numbers.

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

 

[Caesar2290]

Martial can finish with his head. In fact I've seen him score far more physically and technically difficult and impressive headers than Cavani. The question is whether he will have Luke and Marcus tripping over themselves to properly cross to him for tap-in headers.

When he's going to end up on the end of a fecking cross, and not just sit and wait for the ball to appear magically on his head.

Cavani scores tap ins because of his positioning, anticipation and aggression. The man is constantly trying to attack the ball. Martial... yeah, the less said the better.

 

[Stacks]

Martial can finish with his head. In fact I've seen him score far more physically and technically difficult and impressive headers than Cavani. The question is whether he will have Luke and Marcus tripping over themselves to properly cross to him for tap-in headers.

In terms of goals and assists, Martial can easily clear 20 and 15 in a attack system that consistently plays as a unit and looks for each other. In a system that rewards ball hogging and shooting haphazardly, yeah Rashford will get top numbers.

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

so Martial is better at scoring headers than Cavani?

So would you start Anto ahead of Kane for France or England, if you had the power to choose?

 

[DannyCAFC]

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

 

[roonster09]

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

 

[Threesus]

Martial can finish with his head. In fact I've seen him score far more physically and technically difficult and impressive headers than Cavani. The question is whether he will have Luke and Marcus tripping over themselves to properly cross to him for tap-in headers.

In terms of goals and assists, Martial can easily clear 20 and 15 in a attack system that consistently plays as a unit and looks for each other. In a system that rewards ball hogging and shooting haphazardly, yeah Rashford will get top numbers.

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

You do realize that Kane can hold up/link up play like Anthony Firmino and still score a lot more than him right?

He doesn’t need the right environment to score like ‘Anto’. He was scoring for pochettino and is still scoring for Mourinho.

 

[Bobade]

Martial can finish with his head. In fact I've seen him score far more physically and technically difficult and impressive headers than Cavani. The question is whether he will have Luke and Marcus tripping over themselves to properly cross to him for tap-in headers.

In terms of goals and assists, Martial can easily clear 20 and 15 in a attack system that consistently plays as a unit and looks for each other. In a system that rewards ball hogging and shooting haphazardly, yeah Rashford will get top numbers.

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

Luke and Marcus train with Martial every day. If they felt he was good at headed goals, they would cross to him. They don't, so they don't.

Cavani expects the cross to his head and chases the space to invite the cross. I like Martial as a player, but to suggest he is better at scoring headers than Cavani is way off. And better than Kane ? Come on. His technical skill is good, he is a good finisher, but he isn't better than Kane.

 

[OldTrevil]

When he's going to end up on the end of a fecking cross, and not just sit and wait for the ball to appear magically on his head.

Cavani scores tap ins because of his positioning, anticipation and aggression. The man is constantly trying to attack the ball. Martial... yeah, the less said the better.

Sure, that's what he does...

so Martial is better at scoring headers than Cavani?

So would you start Anto ahead of Kane for France or England, if you had the power to choose?

I didn't "overrate" him enough for you?

Are you looking for some green simleys? Here, have a couple

You do realize that Kane can hold up/link up play like Anthony Firmino and still score a lot more than him right?

He doesn’t need the right environment to score like ‘Anto’. He was scoring for pochettino and is still scoring for Mourinho.

What I said was to put them in the same situation to fairly compete, not that Anto needs a specific environment to succeed.

For example put Martial in a system that mainly plays through him and feeds him, like Kane at Spurs, and he would create and score for fun. Alternatively put them in a fluid system that doesn't heavily rely on the center forward for goals and assists, and I'd still bet on Martial to do better.

Luke and Marcus train with Martial every day. If they felt he was good at headed goals, they would cross to him. They don't, so they don't.

Cavani expects the cross to his head and chases the space to invite the cross. I like Martial as a player, but to suggest he is better at scoring headers than Cavani is way off. And better than Kane ? Come on. His technical skill is good, he is a good finisher, but he isn't better than Kane.

I've seen Martial score more difficult headers and until Cavani scores better, I'll keep that opinion. Also my opinion that he's better than Kane and you can disagree with it, but I haven't seen Kane do anything Martial can't do.

 

[roonster09]

Sure, that's what he does...


I didn't "overrate" him enough for you?

Are you looking for some green simleys? Here, have a couple







What I said was to put them in the same situation to fairly compete, not that Anto needs a specific environment to succeed.

For example put Martial in a system that mainly plays through him and feeds him, like Kane at Spurs, and he would create and score for fun. Alternatively put them in a fluid system that doesn't heavily rely on the center forward for goals and assists, and I'd still bet on Martial to do better.


I've seen Martial score more difficult headers and until Cavani scores better, I'll keep that opinion. Also my opinion that he's better than Kane and you can disagree with it, but I haven't seen Kane do anything Martial can't do.

Go to youtube and search Cavani headers, there is at least around 10 mins video to show how many headers he scored including diving headers and headers from difficult angles.

It's amazing how much you overrate Martial, Kane is miles better than Martial at everything except dribbling. You should be good enough player to build system around him (whatever that means) and when Kane made his breakthrough season, system wasn't built around him. He played so well that it was near impossible to play without involving him.

He drops deep and distributes like a proper midfielder, works hard like a midfielder and scores like a proper poacher. Won't even talk about his shooting ability with both feet. Oh all this is for Kane btw, not Martial.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

Is he forced to play with too heavy shoes or do you mean playing with Lamela and Bergwijn rather than Bruno and Pogba is unfair to Anto?

Or is he just unlucky and should he keep playing 'till his luck changes?

 

[Stacks]

Go to youtube and search Cavani headers, there is at least around 10 mins video to show how many headers he scored including diving headers and headers from difficult angles.

It's amazing how much you overrate Martial, Kane is miles better than Martial at everything except dribbling. You should be good enough player to build system around him (whatever that means) and when Kane made his breakthrough season, system wasn't built around him. He played so well that it was near impossible to play without involving him.

He drops deep and distributes like a proper midfielder, works hard like a midfielder and scores like a proper poacher. Won't even talk about his shooting ability with both feet. Oh all this is for Kane btw, not Martial.

Stuff like this makes me feel shame for Kane. Obviously he is a millionaire and Kane-ing it but imagine being 21 goals away from the great Thierry Henry's premier league tally with over a season in hand, soon to overtake Aguero, Cole and possibly Rooney, only to be told Martial is better than you and that you benefit from favouritism.

 

[Matt851]

Go to youtube and search Cavani headers, there is at least around 10 mins video to show how many headers he scored including diving headers and headers from difficult angles.

It's amazing how much you overrate Martial, Kane is miles better than Martial at everything except dribbling. You should be good enough player to build system around him (whatever that means) and when Kane made his breakthrough season, system wasn't built around him. He played so well that it was near impossible to play without involving him.

He drops deep and distributes like a proper midfielder, works hard like a midfielder and scores like a proper poacher. Won't even talk about his shooting ability with both feet. Oh all this is for Kane btw, not Martial.

Martial better than Kane

Don't get sucked into arguing with an idiot, they are often too stupid to know when they have lost

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I wouldn’t say Martial is a bad header. He’s scored some beauty’s and he is pretty good in defence getting his head to things, but I think to class yourself as a good header you’ve got to have the will to do it and that isn’t something he utilities enough of. He often just plays too deep, or is waiting for something to feet.

It was a nice run and move for the Telles cross that he put wide but he needs to do stuff like that more often. Make the winger or fullbacks mind up for them by making the run. That’s something Cavani does on a consistent basis. Hence why he is rightly so the starting number 9 currently.

Would say in the past our buildup has been so pooor and slow that it would have been pretty pointless to put crosses in as by the time we were ready to do it the defence is set ready for any incoming ball. Would be like Moyes vs Fulham. Spam crosses. Rene did him that day.

Anyway, I’d back Cavani to score more headed goals as I would Kane as it just isn’t Martials game to play that way. Although not saying he can’t do it.

 

[Hawks2008]

So not only is Martial better than Cavani, who despite being a no better than 'a standard Stoke level CF' has been one of the best strikers of his generation, but now he is also better than Harry Kane who is a top 3 striker on the planet.

Martial fans are a different breed

 

[MadDogg]

So not only is Martial better than Cavani, who despite being a no better than 'a standard Stoke level CF' has been one of the best strikers of his generation, but now he is also better than Harry Kane who is a top 3 striker on the planet.

Martial fans are a different breed

The Cavani claim is somewhat understandable as long as it's specifically talking about Martial at his best. Martial last season after lockdown was certainly better than Cavani has been for us this season.

Kane though.

 

[Threesus]

The Cavani claim is somewhat understandable as long as it's specifically talking about Martial at his best. Martial last season after lockdown was certainly better than Cavani has been for us this season.

Kane though.

I mean, one is 33 years old(soon to be 34) and one is supposedly in his prime. We need a proven striker and winger this summer to jump start both Martial and Rashford to form. If they are still like this next season, I would sell both of them next summer, even though I would be very sad to let Rashford go. We are not winning anything with both of them in this kind of form, and club before any player.

 

[Red00012]

Martial is better than Kane is a winner

Good to see Martial FC is in full flow despite his less than average season

 

[Hawks2008]

The Cavani claim is somewhat understandable as long as it's specifically talking about Martial at his best. Martial last season after lockdown was certainly better than Cavani has been for us this season.

Kane though.

Yes but there was another poster claiming Martial is better than even a peak Cavani because Martial is more technical or something..

 

[OldTrevil]

Go to youtube and search Cavani headers, there is at least around 10 mins video to show how many headers he scored including diving headers and headers from difficult angles.

It's amazing how much you overrate Martial, Kane is miles better than Martial at everything except dribbling. You should be good enough player to build system around him (whatever that means) and when Kane made his breakthrough season, system wasn't built around him. He played so well that it was near impossible to play without involving him.

He drops deep and distributes like a proper midfielder, works hard like a midfielder and scores like a proper poacher. Won't even talk about his shooting ability with both feet. Oh all this is for Kane btw, not Martial.

I was going by the headers they've scored for United so far. I've looked at other Cavani highlights and he has some exceptional headed goals no doubt. He has world class movement in the box and a good leap, which leads to some amazing headers. With that, I'd give Cavani a edge in box movement and headers, but other CF attributes I'd still give to Martial. We are likely going to see a lot of Cavani world class headers at United this season and next, I love me a good header so I'm definitely looking forward to them.

On the Kane point, I was comparing him to the best Martial we've seen so far for united, not the current one who's obviously been struggling in front of goal. Kane is definitely a very good finisher and has shown it for a while, I would say he slightly edges Martial on the finishing. Again, I'm comparing with the best we've seen from Martial at CF, especially his first season and the 19/20 one. Talking about shooting with both feet, Martial has shown that he's very good with it too. For link up play and general ability as a footballer, Martial is clearly better for me. That's why overall I would take Martial over Kane.

 

[DickDastardly]

I'd also rather take Martial then Kane.








Take him by the hand and show him the fecking door.

I don't know what drugs you on but i'd like to hop on that train.

 

[Hawks2008]

I was going by the headers they've scored for United so far. I've looked at other Cavani highlights and he has some exceptional headed goals no doubt. He has world class movement in the box and a good leap, which leads to some amazing headers. With that, I'd give Cavani a edge in box movement and headers, but other CF attributes I'd still give to Martial. We are likely going to see a lot of Cavani world class headers at United this season and next, I love me a good header so I'm definitely looking forward to them.

On the Kane point, I was comparing him to the best Martial we've seen so far for united, not the current one who's obviously been struggling in front of goal. Kane is definitely a very good finisher and has shown it for a while, I would say he slightly edges Martial on the finishing. Again, I'm comparing with the best we've seen from Martial at CF, especially his first season and the 19/20 one. Talking about shooting with both feet, Martial has shown that he's very good with it too. For link up play and general ability as a footballer, Martial is clearly better for me. That's why overall I would take Martial over Kane.

Yeah, this really shows when Kane is leading assists this season in the league with 11 and Martial has 3... since 2015/16 they've got basically same amount of assists as well. Kane has 4 seasons of 20+league goals, Martial hasn't had such a tally once and yet he is only 'slightly' behind Kane in finishing? Even those 2 seasons you mention Martial being the "best we've seen" and what allegedly sets him apart from Kane don't show this. In the 15/16 season his goal+assist tally in the league was 11+4 to Kane's 25+1, and in 19/20 Martial had 17+6 and Kane had 18+2. So while he did have a slightly higher output in 19/20 it was still only just ahead of Kane's poorest season since he became a regular at spurs. The best of Martial is not comprable to Kane's best seasons, Kane has triple the league goals of Martial, and could conceivably break the all-time PL record whereas Martial would be lucky to reach 100 PL goals.

Even if you're one of those eye-test over stats guys, I don't understand how you can watch both of these players in the league for the last 6 seasons and come to the conclusion Kane is just a 'very good finisher' and Martial has 'clearly better' link up or general play. He's got better close control dribbling and thats about it, Kane is every bit as important to spurs build-up as Martial has been for us when he's on form and is technically a very sound player, has greater movement and positioning and is better at the physical side of being a striker. So yeah, Kane's dribbling isn't as silky as Martial's but general play is not just dribbling, and Kanen is still Martial's equal when it comes to his all-round game.

I really would love it Martial was better than Kane because that would mean we have the best striker in the league and one of the best in the world, He showed last season he had a high ceiling and maybe could have been a a top striker like Kane but his bottom level is just awful this season has killed any of my faith that this guy will become a reliable performer we can pin our ambitions on.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

@Hawks2008 Nice try, but goal tally is irrelevant though. Just think about how much more Anto would score than Kane were he playing in the 8th placed team under Mourinho with Lamela and Bergwijn instead of shite like Pogba and Bruno.

Agreed. I sense some on here would set up a Mourinho-type system, play Cavani as a target man and constantly hoof the ball to him and Rashford while Martial sits on the bench

Yes, I'm of the opinion we should loan Martial out to Stoke, so he can practice the target man playstyle.

If allowed to compete fairly in same environment, I'd bet on Anto against Kane all day.

Don't venture into betting.

Don't get sucked into arguing with an idiot, they are often too stupid to know when they have lost

Wise words.

 

[Vaibhav Raj]

Big performance incoming from Tony. Or so I hope at least.

 

[Adisa]

Come on Toto.

 

[SirMarcusRashford]

Big performance incoming from Tony. Or so I hope at least.

I wouldn't bet on it. There's more chance he'll stink up the place as usual.

 

[MattofManchester]

Doesn't really deserve to be starting over Mason at the moment.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Unless we're 4 -0 up against 9 or 10 men don't play him

He's a waste of space

 

[arnie_ni]

Him and rash both deserve a zero. Horrendous today

 

[VP89]

He should be no where near the XI. Been too shit for too long now.

 

[Lay]

Shite as usual

 

[pseudo_canadian]

Utterly useless footballer.

 

[VeevaVee]

The complete opposite of what you need in this type of game

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Not sure why we feel inclined to wait till 60 minutes. He was never going to do anything.