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2020-21 Performances


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acnumber9

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Link up play doesn't have to be the final pass it can just be about progressing the ball which I think Martial has still reasonably well at. Am not saying he's playing how we'd want him to be or that in general he doesn't need to continue to push on but I think he's still been helpful to our overall play. Further as I said I don't think it's like he's constantly missing chances or in the wrong position which I'd be more worried about.
I don’t think so but I don’t expect his fan club to agree.

I’d actually go the opposite way and say that him getting on the end of chances is a positive even if he is missing currently because his finishing is good so he will start scoring soon.
 

Ash_G

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I don’t think so but I don’t expect his fan club to agree.

I’d actually go the opposite way and say that him getting on the end of chances is a positive even if he is missing currently because his finishing is good so he will start scoring soon.
Ok well it's sad that apparently you're not allowed to have different views without being part of a 'fan club' but so be it.
 
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Strelok

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As the spearhead to our attack, Martial is one of the main reasons why everyone lines up with a low block against us. If he wants to take the next step, he needs a change in role, a change in playing style or a change in club.
Could you elaborate more on this please?

Sounds interesting but I don't get why he's one of the reason everyone lines up with a low block against us? I always think teams doing such just because they face a good attack.

And in your opinion what he'd need to do to take the next steps?
 

Eugenius

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Players' player of the season what two months ago? Now shite according to Caf consensus.

Some level of toxicity floating around him as always. Quite frankly all of our players have struggled for consistency (even Bruno, whilst putting up good numbers was fairly shocking from open play from the end of last season). But I don't understand where you get the amateur psychologists questioning his intelligence or the blatant revisionism around his attributes or track record.
 

Bebestation

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Ok well it's sad that apparently you're not allowed to have different views without being part of a 'fan club' but so be it.
It's weird how this clubs fans are shot down for being a fan club of a player.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's the same as upporting the club and its players. The hate the players get is nonsense. These are just players who play for the club and because some people support these players players apparently they have a fan club. What an absolute dickhead.
 

Godfather

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His game tonight perfectly highlighted why I don't like this guy. 2 great chances both missed. He misses far too many sitters, is inconsistent in his game and can never be relied upon. Will never challenge for anything with him and Rashford being the two main men upfront that we have to rely on. Both of them waste far too many chances.
This and the Fred thread make me think some live in a parallel universe.You can blame Martial for a few things but missing sitters is not one of them
 

justsomebloke

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It’s not his mentality why he doesn’t score the scrappy goals.
He isn’t a natural goal scorer.
You can see why Ole was so desperate to get Haaland in January.
I hardly think those are particularly linked. Haaland is a generational talent with a combination of skills I don't think I've ever seen quite the likes of, he's someone every club would covet no matter who they already have playing up front. He can run the length of the pitch at literally near-world-record speed. He can put the ball in the top corner from 20 meters with such force the keeper doesn't have time to react, using the inside of his foot. Force, positioning, instinct, link-up play, he's got it all.

Obviously (and to turn to the general), Martial is a very different type of player. An unconventional striker. A cerebral pouncer with silky movement and real skills, who doesn't necessarily figure extensively in the game apart from his scoring chances. There's something special there, but there are legitimate questions about end product. Worth remembering though that last year was his first full season in a striker's role at this club, and that he showed very good progress over the year. Deserves more chances, in my opinion.
 
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acnumber9

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Ok well it's sad that apparently you're not allowed to have different views without being part of a 'fan club' but so be it.
You can hold any opinion you like. Are you denying he has a fan club?
 

acnumber9

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It's weird how this clubs fans are shot down for being a fan club of a player.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's the same as upporting the club and its players. The hate the players get is nonsense. These are just players who play for the club and because some people support these players players apparently they have a fan club. What an absolute dickhead.
There’s is something wrong when members of the fan club will do anything to downplay other players. Plenty of dickheads around. Some quite close to home.
 

Mcking

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When Martial's playing up top, we play a lot more football in the opponents half. When there's no Martial, we camp in our own half because nobody else is capable of holding up the ball. I love Rashford and Greenwood but to suggest their hold up play is anywhere near the same level (I know you havent) is absolutely mental and really points towards a lack of football knowledge.
Yeah, just need to watch the Arsenal game. Greenwood and Rashford were like puppies.
 

Bebestation

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There’s is something wrong when members of the fan club will do anything to downplay other players. Plenty of dickheads around. Some quite close to home.
Yeah and theirs fans who realise that the clubs is not run by them and support every single player that plays for them, even if they are not good enough.


I looked at your post history - every single one is negative. Literally every.single.one. not a single one is positive post. Not.a.single.one. not.a.single.one. it's absolutely insane when you look at your post history because you would think it's fair to have some negativity balanced with some positives spread across as a supporter but no - you spit out the negatives only as a supporter that just shits out liquid stools of Diarrhea. Then you have a go at the fans of a player like that is different to being a fan of the club itself.


look at your post history.
 

acnumber9

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Yeah and theirs fans who realise that the clubs is not run by them and support every single player that plays for them, even if they are not good enough.


I looked at your post history - every single one is negative. Literally every.single.one. not a single one is positive post. Not.a.single.one. not.a.single.one. it's absolutely insane when you look at your post history because you would think it's fair to have some negativity balanced with some positives spread across as a supporter but no - you spit out the negatives only as a supporter that just shits out liquid stools of Diarrhea. Then you have a go at the fans of a player like that is different to being a fan of the club itself.


look at your post history.
On Martial or in general? I support Man United, not a player. I don’t feel the need to abuse one player to make another look better. Which is what Martial’s fan club constantly do. Which is probably why I spend more time arguing against it because this cult of Martial is the most ridiculous I’ve seen in all my time following Man United. But if you want to go around and call people dickheads at least do it in posts to me rather than being a snide twat about it. If we any to talk about diarrhoea focus on all your false 9 bullshit and how it’s always somebody else’s fault.
 

MattofManchester

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Is he a good player?
Yes.

Is he good enough to lead a Manchester United attack long term?
No. This club is used to better, and should be looking for better.
 

Bebestation

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On Martial or in general? I support Man United, not a player. I don’t feel the need to abuse one player to make another look better. Which is what Martial’s fan club constantly do. Which is probably why I spend more time arguing against it because this cult of Martial is the most ridiculous I’ve seen in all my time following Man United. But if you want to go around and call people dickheads at least do it in posts to me rather than being a snide twat about it. If we any to talk about diarrhoea focus on all your false 9 bullshit and how it’s always somebody else’s fault.
No every single one of your posts on redcafe is negative.
 

Ash_G

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You can hold any opinion you like. Are you denying he has a fan club?
Maybe I've mis-interpreted your exchange with me but it seemed to me like you were downplaying my opinion based on being part of a 'fan club'.

Either way I guess we all hold bias's whether conscious or not about almost everything. I've no doubt there are some people who are more biased to some players than others. I prefer though to just assume we're trying to just have a general discourse on here rather than shutting down conversation based on assumed 'bias'.

To be clear I agree with the sentiment that Martial needs to continue on his trajectory from last season and keep stepping up hi game and he clearly hasn't been at his best this season. I however also think that he's not quite as hopeless as some have made him out to be and there's things he does that are important to our ability to progress attacks. I see it as similar in principal to Mata who's often gotten a hard time from fans for not being directly influential via goals/assists whereas I've also maintained with him that what he brings usually helps with the flow of our play.
 

eire-red

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My opinion is very simple. He's our best player, a small period of poor form isn't going change that.

Wait until he's back to top form and you'll realise how much shite your talking regarding his hold up and link up play.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you don't seem like the most reasonable person to be honest so we'll go around in circles here most likely.

As regards to the bolded part, there's about 5 seasons of evidence to suggest this is not the case. How much of those 5 season has Martial been our 'go to man' to deliver time and time again?

I like Martial, he's a good player. My original post alluded to simple changes to his game that he can improve on to take things to the next level. However, I don't think he will ever take his game to the next level having watched him for the last 5 seasons though, so I think there's an inevitability that we'll look to Haaland to fill that no. 9 role, or Greenwood even.
 

Bebestation

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The only reason it looks like he has a fan club is because he clearly has a hate club in the first place like ***9 are a part of and then some fans think that's unfair and end up backing him.

Literally the only reason there is this fan club rubbish.

That's why it's funny when his haters bring up this fan club. It's very ironic. Its actually them who are in some sort of focused fan club that focus on him in the first place.
 

Sayros

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The only reason it looks like he has a fan club is because he clearly has a hate club in the first place like ***9 are a part of and then some fans think that's unfair and end up backing him.

Literally the only reason there is this fan club rubbish.

That's why it's funny when his haters bring up this fan club. It's very ironic. Its actually them who are in some sort of focused fan club that focus on him in the first place.
It's the chicken and egg theory. Which came first, there's definitely an agenda or 'fan club' for both sides, and nobody is winning; we're all losing here.
 

Henandez14

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It's the chicken and egg theory. Which came first, there's definitely an agenda or 'fan club' for both sides, and nobody is winning; we're all losing here.
The hate club definitely came first. It started when Jose made him his first scapegoat. The hate club also played a direct role in creating the fan club, when anyone who came to his defense was labeled ‘martial fc’
 

InfiniteBoredom

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It's the chicken and egg theory. Which came first, there's definitely an agenda or 'fan club' for both sides, and nobody is winning; we're all losing here.
The rift started around 17/18 when Mourinho deliberately pitted Rashford and Martial against each other in that left wing spot. I definitely think some in the Martial FC camp take it too far occasionally when defending him, but unlike Pogba who was mistrusted by a portion of the fan base very early on due to the Madrid link, the dislike/distrust of Martial stemmed almost entirely from his time under a manager who didn’t rate him and didn’t do his development any good, which is pretty irrational given that he has still been one of our most productive players throughout that period.

It’s also partly because the fan base is getting very impatient due to our current malaise, and as a result constantly look for straightforward answer, which is counter productive imo. We had our iconic talismans under Fergie, but one of our leanest period was when we relied too heavily on a beast of a CF but without the quality behind to back him up, which is why I’m always dubious of claims like ‘Kane/Haaland will take us up a level’, when our defence and midfield still can’t find any real consistency despite all the money being dumped in there. Maybe I’m naive, but if a much more cohesive Spurs team managed to win feck all under Pochettino with Kane playing the best football of his life, color me skeptical that he will transform a disjointed United team.
 

Mcking

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I know a lot of people bang on about Martial's hunger for goals, motivation and stuff like that, but one big problem I've noticed about him is his shooting game - it is not good enough, and that plays a part.

When he's free and teed up for a shot, you could always trust him to produce a good one, but when he has to improvise, sort out his feet or get a shot away quickly, it is a completely different story.

Obviously it's a lot more difficult to get away a good shot when under pressure, but the best strikers are still able to do it. Martial can, but not well enough. He struggles to get enough power on his shot when he has to sort his feet out, and even when there's time to do so before shooting, he doesn't do it quick enough and is closed down before he could shoot. Most times, he doesn't even bother shooting.

I know I sound hypocritical, but it is just what has become more and more clear to me since he began playing upfront. It means that he doesn't take anywhere near enough shots for a striker playing upfront for Manchester United, which contributes to how he is perceived by some as a striker.

I checked his shot count for last season, and he took 2.5 shots per game. That's definitely on the low side. Mohammed Salah took 4.1, Harry Kane took only 2.8 in a turbulent season, but he was comfortably close to the 4.0 mark every other season. Aguero is almost always above 4.5 per game. I'm not sure I'd say these trio finish easy chances much better than Martial, but one difference between them and the average striker is that provided the goal is within range you could always trust them to shoot, and to produce a good shot most often than not.

Not sure if it's a case of Martial just not been a fan of shots, or not trusting himself more, or a technical problem, but his shooting game is definitely a problem as far as I'm concerned. Anyone share the same sentiment?
 

El Jefe

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It was the reasoning put forth. It was said that top strikers bury at least one of 3 chances. But I've seen countless games where that hasn't been the case... whatsoever.
Yes but you brought Cristiano Ronaldo and me inferring he was shite into the equation. The poster I responded to was making excuses for Martial missing chances but there are no excuses for strikers at the top level. When Lukaku was here he scored loads in his first season but the feeling was he missed too many big chances, that's the sort of pressure and expectation at big clubs.

Martial should be judged the same way Lukaku was. If Lukaku missed the three chances Martial did, his thread would be full of laughing emojis.

I like Martial but there are a lot of posters here that get so sensitive over him. This season is his last chance to prove himself as our undisputed first choice striker and it must be said he's started terribly.
 

Bebestation

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Yes but you brought Cristiano Ronaldo and me inferring he was shite into the equation. The poster I responded to was making excuses for Martial missing chances but there are no excuses for strikers at the top level. When Lukaku was here he scored loads in his first season but the feeling was he missed too many big chances, that's the sort of pressure and expectation at big clubs.

Martial should be judged the same way Lukaku was. If Lukaku missed the three chances Martial did, his thread would be full of laughing emojis.

I like Martial but there are a lot of posters here that get so sensitive over him. This season is his last chance to prove himself as our undisputed first choice striker and it must be said he's started terribly.
This is the thing though.

I dont really see anyone from 'Martial FC' saying we shouldnt buy another striker. That we shouldnt buy a more traditional striker. I didnt hear anyone crying about us signing Haaland even before the hype was there. That we shouldnt have bought Zlatan back in the day.

Yet there is people on the other side that want us to ditch Martial to sign attackers after attackers instead. That's what doesnt make sense to me. That's what I dont agree with.

I dont see why he should be ditched. Maybe he isnt good to be the top striker in a premier league club but I dont see why he cant be the second or even the third?

I think he has proven to be good enough for atleast that but there is fans that seem to just always want to get him away from the club as soon as they can.

Last couple seasons second strikers off the top of my head
Man city's 2nd striker - Gabriel Jesus
Liverpool 2nd striker - Origi/Firmino
Chelsea 2nd striker- Giroud/Abraham
Arsenal 2nd Striker - Lacazette
Spurs 2nd striker - Llorente, Janssen

I personally think Martial is better than most of them if not near all of them, so he should be okay with being a squad player for us at best.
 

eire-red

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This is the thing though.

I dont really see anyone from 'Martial FC' saying we shouldnt buy another striker. That we shouldnt buy a more traditional striker. I didnt hear anyone crying about us signing Haaland even before the hype was there. That we shouldnt have bought Zlatan back in the day.

Yet there is people on the other side that want us to ditch Martial to sign attackers after attackers instead. That's what doesnt make sense to me. That's what I dont agree with.

I dont see why he should be ditched. Maybe he isnt good to be the top striker in a premier league club but I dont see why he cant be the second or even the third?

I think he has proven to be good enough for atleast that but there is fans that seem to just always want to get him away from the club as soon as they can.

Last couple seasons second strikers off the top of my head
Man city's 2nd striker - Gabriel Jesus
Liverpool 2nd striker - Origi/Firmino
Chelsea 2nd striker- Giroud/Abraham
Arsenal 2nd Striker - Lacazette
Spurs 2nd striker - Llorente, Janssen

I personally think Martial is better than most of them if not near all of them, so he should be okay with being a squad player for us at best.
I don't there would be anyone upset about Martial being benched because we have a top CF leading the line, he would be a great player to bring on against tired legs and solid backup in case of injury.

What's annoying is being attacked and labelled an idiot or talking nonsense for criticism against a player who has rightly earned question marks about him over the last few seasons. Now I'd love just as much as the next guy for Martial to go on and become our Kane or Lewandowski, but will he?

What have we seen throughout the last five years that gives us comfort that he will blossom into a consistent match winner? Quality player no doubt, but it's being labelled as having an agenda or deluded that's the frustrating thing when people jump to Martial's defence at the smallest hint of criticism.

Agree with your post though, he's probably not good enough to lead the line for a top class team, but would be a brilliant squad option. I feel like we're always just waiting for him to become something though, or turn a corner. When are we going to see him bang in 20+ goals in the league, season after season? Or will we still be having this discussion in 3 years time, with the same old people saying how he's only 28 now and should be entering his prime, or some other excuse like that.
 

acnumber9

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The only reason it looks like he has a fan club is because he clearly has a hate club in the first place like ***9 are a part of and then some fans think that's unfair and end up backing him.

Literally the only reason there is this fan club rubbish.

That's why it's funny when his haters bring up this fan club. It's very ironic. Its actually them who are in some sort of focused fan club that focus on him in the first place.
What an insufferable bore you are.
 

Poborsky's hair

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Think his FIFA rating is spot on. 84 for a very good player with a nice potential of 88, the thing is you really have to work harder in real life to achieve that potential. Players can stagnate/regress, not develop linearly and I think tha´s the case with our Anthony. He will occasionally turn up and show that he´s capable if he wants. Unfortunately for all of us unlike Rashford he´s not willing to work hard enough to get to the very top. Maybe another manager could get the best out of him who knows.
 

brzez

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The only problem I see with Martial is his off ball movement in the oppositions penalty box. But it is a trait that you can learn but I cannot fathom how he has played as a "9" for more than one season now and still can't make the right runs in the right spaces. He's a 30 goal striker per season if he masters that.
 

Dante

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Could you elaborate more on this please?

Sounds interesting but I don't get why he's one of the reason everyone lines up with a low block against us? I always think teams doing such just because they face a good attack.

And in your opinion what he'd need to do to take the next steps?
Because defenders have a much easier time when the main man they're up against is always in front of them wants the ball consistently played to feet. For them, it's like playing a videogame on easy mode.

Football teams don't routinely play a low block. There's a reason for that: it's a suicidal strategy against most sides. The exception is against teams like United, where our main centreforward is kind enough to stay in the defenders field of view at all times.

I'm not just talking about runs in behind (Rashford in particular does this reasonably well when we're on the counter). I'm talking about double movement, sneaking in behind defenders when they're not looking, running channels, starting offside and then coming back onside, etc. The dark arts of what it means to be a centreforward.

Chicharito wasn't anything close to a world class player, but the kinds of chances he scored from are currently getting ignored by this team. Creativity isn't a one a way street. It depends on the finisher as much as the passer. If De Bruyne or Zidane had nobody to pass to in dangerous positions, they too would struggle to create.

People criticise our other forwards for missing chances. But United's frontline is quite fluid and nobody has a fixed position. There's nothing stopping Martial from being the one who gets onto the end of those chances instead of Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno, etc. Ole isn't playing Martial like a sacrificial target man or a big lump battering ram or anything. The fact he has 0 (zero) shots on target this season tells you the story of what's going wrong.


My table on the previous page shows you that this isn't simply a one off. Yes, he's in bad form at the moment and I'm sure he'll get better. But his lack of penalty box instincts is a deeper problem, and one that's plagued him since day one.
 

Strelok

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Because defenders have a much easier time when the main man they're up against is always in front of them wants the ball consistently played to feet. For them, it's like playing a videogame on easy mode.

Football teams don't routinely play a low block. There's a reason for that: it's a suicidal strategy against most sides. The exception is against teams like United, where our main centreforward is kind enough to stay in the defenders field of view at all times.

I'm not just talking about runs in behind (Rashford in particular does this reasonably well when we're on the counter). I'm talking about double movement, sneaking in behind defenders when they're not looking, running channels, starting offside and then coming back onside, etc. The dark arts of what it means to be a centreforward.

Chicharito wasn't anything close to a world class player, but the kinds of chances he scored from are currently getting ignored by this team. Creativity isn't a one a way street. It depends on the finisher as much as the passer. If De Bruyne or Zidane had nobody to pass to in dangerous positions, they too would struggle to create.

People criticise our other forwards for missing chances. But United's frontline is quite fluid and nobody has a fixed position. There's nothing stopping Martial from being the one who gets onto the end of those chances instead of Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno, etc. Ole isn't playing Martial like a sacrificial target man or a big lump battering ram or anything. The fact he has 0 (zero) shots on target this season tells you the story of what's going wrong.


My table on the previous page shows you that this isn't simply a one off. Yes, he's in bad form at the moment and I'm sure he'll get better. But his lack of penalty box instincts is a deeper problem, and one that's plagued him since day one.
Thanks for your reply.

I still don't understand:

1. Why it's easy for defenders to play again strikers that want ball to their feet? Most of the time strikers receive the ball to their feet I think? It's not like they'd want the ball to their chest or head? which would be much more difficult to control properly when they're marked.

2. Why it's suicidal to play with a low block? I watch a considerable number amount of football in the last 25 years and most of the time a smaller side would play with a low block against a much bigger better side. To get a draw and a point. Sometime it works sometime it doesn't but I don't think it's a good idea for them to go toe to toe with those much bigger better sides.
 

Morpheus 7

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He needs competition in my opinion. I think he's a really good player but not a top consistent one. Martial FC go on like he's R9, ridiculous. The problem is competition I believe. Anthony has a sulky head on him if he's played shit and taken off in injury time. When things are tough, don't expect Martial to dig us out. When the team play well he usually does too, it's options though and motivation. Too many comfortable and need to kept on there toes. Rotational forward, need a better long term option.
 

Sayros

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He needs competition in my opinion. I think he's a really good player but not a top consistent one. Martial FC go on like he's R9, ridiculous. The problem is competition I believe. Anthony has a sulky head on him if he's played shit and taken off in injury time. When things are tough, don't expect Martial to dig us out. When the team play well he usually does too, it's options though and motivation. Too many comfortable and need to kept on there toes. Rotational forward, need a better long term option.
That bolded part is more ridiculous than anything I've seen from Martial FC.
 

1nil

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The jiminez quote all but confirms that united are looking to replace tony. He has had his moments but United are used to way more prolific strikers than him. Not the man to lead us to a title IMO
 

Foxbatt

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He is a very good player who needs to step up this season. He has been out for three matches and he needs to get going.
Martial in the team is better than Martial out of the team.
 

Steven7290

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Thanks for your reply.

I still don't understand:

1. Why it's easy for defenders to play again strikers that want ball to their feet? Most of the time strikers receive the ball to their feet I think? It's not like they'd want the ball to their chest or head? which would be much more difficult to control properly when they're marked.



2. Why it's suicidal to play with a low block? I watch a considerable number amount of football in the last 25 years and most of the time a smaller side would play with a low block against a much bigger better side. To get a draw and a point. Sometime it works sometime it doesn't but I don't think it's a good idea for them to go toe to toe with those much bigger better sides.
1. Play the ball into space behind the line for the strikers to meet with his run instead of receiving the ball in a relatively stationary position in front of the defenders all the time. "to feet" is a figure of speech and not necessarily mean the part of the body.

2. With playing a low block, you're ready to negate the potential offsides for your opponents, not competing for the ball in the middle of the park further away from goal and inviting the opposition to play right in front of your own box 80% of the match that would be more dangerous. Of course in the past some small teams decided before the match that they would not be able to compete and therefore try their best to pack in front of goal to get 1 point, but that requires immense focus and luck as well. Against a team with good passing, strikers movements, dribbling, long shot, free kick the chance that you can protect a result for 90 minutes is not that great.
 

Strelok

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1. Play the ball into space behind the line for the strikers to meet with his run instead of receiving the ball in a relatively stationary position in front of the defenders all the time. "to feet" is a figure of speech and not necessarily mean the part of the body.

2. With playing a low block, you're ready to negate the potential offsides for your opponents, not competing for the ball in the middle of the park further away from goal and inviting the opposition to play right in front of your own box 80% of the match that would be more dangerous. Of course in the past some small teams decided before the match that they would not be able to compete and therefore try their best to pack in front of goal to get 1 point, but that requires immense focus and luck as well. Against a team with good passing, strikers movements, dribbling, long shot, free kick the chance that you can protect a result for 90 minutes is not that great.
Imo both are not really true.

1. It's not easy as it sounds to play a pass for a striker to run to against a packed low block. There's basically no space and most of the passing lines are blocked. That's why most teams use lofted passes against a packed low block. But very few passers in the world could do that with pinpoint accuracy to work against a low block where there's very very little space left behind the defensive line.

2. We ourselves struggle a lot against the low bock. Very few teams in the world are afforded with all good passing, movements, dribbling, free kick or crossing. You made it sounds so easy to score against the low block. But truth is I watched a few matches of Barcelona under Pep when they didn't have Messi. They played a very boring football similar to our football under LVG. Lot of passes and possession but toothless. It's not that easy. Playing with a packed low block is simply the best way for a team to play against a much better team. That's why we see it all the time. Try to do differently and you'd be Norwich last season.