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poleglass red

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The commentator said during the Bournemouth game that it is 3 years since Martial scored in 2 consecutive games. I appreciate he was out on loan at one point during that period, but still a pretty damming statistic.
 

bosnian_red

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He’s just not good enough anymore.

Out of the sides in the top 10, I’d argue he only starts for Brighton & Brentford. Even then I’m not convinced he would due to his complete lack of effort & application.
There are over 20 forwards throughout the prem who are better. It's only Crystal Palaces, Bournemouth, Southampton, Leeds and Wolves who don't have at least 1 forward who would start ahead of him. Many have 2.
 

OrcaFat

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There are over 20 forwards throughout the prem who are better. It's only Crystal Palaces, Bournemouth, Southampton, Leeds and Wolves who don't have at least 1 forward who would start ahead of him. Many have 2.
I assume you are talking about the real life Martial who is constantly either injured or coming back from injury. Nobody starts a guy like that out of choice.

If we’re talking about the hypothetical Martial who gets properly fit and manages not to get injured at all then he probably gets into most (not all, of course) premiership teams.

Hypothetical players are no use to anyone, of course.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I assume you are talking about the real life Martial who is constantly either injured or coming back from injury. Nobody starts a guy like that out of choice.

If we’re talking about the hypothetical Martial who gets properly fit and manages not to get injured at all then he probably gets into most (not all, of course) premiership teams.

Hypothetical players are no use to anyone, of course.
He’s back in full first team training for over two months now. This means he is “properly fit” by any definition. How many PL teams would the version of Martial we saw at the weekend start for? Liverpool reject, Dominic Solanke, looked more of a threat than he did.
 

bosnian_red

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I assume you are talking about the real life Martial who is constantly either injured or coming back from injury. Nobody starts a guy like that out of choice.

If we’re talking about the hypothetical Martial who gets properly fit and manages not to get injured at all then he probably gets into most (not all, of course) premiership teams.

Hypothetical players are no use to anyone, of course.
Hypothetical martial doesn't exist anymore IMO. Past few years of injuries have ruined any physicality he had. He's slow and not agile anymore, so he's a bit useless. Over a season though is what I'm basing it off of. A normal Martial season for the past 3 seasons. Injured half the year, gaining fitness for half of his not injured time, handful of excellent games, a ton of ineffective/invisible games.
 

kouroux

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ETH doesn't really have a lot of choice though, if Martial doesn't play the alternative is Weghorst

Martial has always had the look of a half-assed player with attitude, it's his normal state, but it looks worse now, he knows he's getting hooked after an hour or so and he knows the club is looking to bring someone in to basically replace him
ETH didn't have a lot of choice when Ronaldo was here either and he still got rid of him
 

OrcaFat

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He’s back in full first team training for over two months now. This means he is “properly fit” by any definition. How many PL teams would the version of Martial we saw at the weekend start for? Liverpool reject, Dominic Solanke, looked more of a threat than he did.
Do you think he has become a worse player then? Or did you never rate him. If the former, is it the injuries that have taken their toll?
 

OrcaFat

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Hypothetical martial doesn't exist anymore IMO. Past few years of injuries have ruined any physicality he had. He's slow and not agile anymore, so he's a bit useless. Over a season though is what I'm basing it off of. A normal Martial season for the past 3 seasons. Injured half the year, gaining fitness for half of his not injured time, handful of excellent games, a ton of ineffective/invisible games.
Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering - could be the cumulative effect of the injuries has knocked him down a couple of notches.

If it’s true, it’s a shame as he’s really just a young lad still and might have had another 6 or 7 seasons ahead of him. The way it’s going, I could see him retiring.
 

lex talionis

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I've never witnessed a footballer quite like Anthony Martial. He suffers no known physical ailment nor has he been diagnosed with a mental illness, and he certainly isn't old by a reasonable standard, yet he plays like he either doesn't give a shit or is physical unable to get out of second gear.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Do you think he has become a worse player then? Or did you never rate him. If the former, is it the injuries that have taken their toll?
I think he's a classic case of a player who had a lot of potential but never realised that potential, for lots of different reasons. He was talented enough to look the real deal for short runs of games and once for a season but never put it all together for as long as he should. I think the injury excuse is overstated because of his terrible injury record these last two seasons. Before that he had 6 seasons in a row where he averaged close to 30 league games/season and never fully convinced. And he’s underwhelmed again this season, despite staying fit for the last two months. Which is a long enough time to look a lot better than he has looked.
 
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bosnian_red

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Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering - could be the cumulative effect of the injuries has knocked him down a couple of notches.

If it’s true, it’s a shame as he’s really just a young lad still and might have had another 6 or 7 seasons ahead of him. The way it’s going, I could see him retiring.
He's turning 28 at the end of this year, yeah should be in his prime but there's quite a few players who have suffered with tons of injuries who have severely declined at that point. Think there's a noticeable difference in his agility, pace, strength even comparing 19/20 where he was excellent or 20/21 when the injuries first started coming in more and more. Sad really.
 

bosnian_red

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I was sort of surprised looking at his FBREF stats today - he looks like an incredibly well rounded striker…

https://fbref.com/en/players/8b788c01/Anthony-Martial
Heavily impacted by some sub appearances and limited minutes in general. He's also gotten progressively worse as the season has gone on with what he actually produces on the pitch.

Saying that, I'd still start him vs City. He's capable of the odd quality game, and him having one is the best hope we have vs them as he can give us some hold up play to help break on them.
 

OrcaFat

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I think he's a classic case of a player who had a lot of potential but never realised that potential, for lots of different reasons. He was talented enough to look the real deal for short runs of games and once for a season but never put it all together for as long as he should. I think the injury excuse is overstated because of his terrible injury record these last two seasons. Before that he had 6 seasons in a row where he averaged close to 30 league games/season and never fully convinced. And he’s underwhelmed again this season, despite staying fit for the last two months. Which is a long enough time to look a lot better than he has looked.
He was often frustrating from the start, I thought. As you say, he has the talent and had a few spells of good performances but was basically inconsistent, like a lot of young players. He didn’t seem to enjoy playing under Jose.

Rashford took a huge beating on here, despite racking up a very high appearance count over the last few seasons. His performances were inconsistent and often poor. Why? Because he was playing with injuries and was never fully fit. This season he mostly had good fitness and we saw what a difference it makes.

I don’t think Martial is fit. he might not be officially injured but he hasn’t played enough games and he just doesn’t look fit.

If Martial could get fit and stay fit (yes I heard how crazy that sounds) he could do what Rashford has done. Nobody believes he will, I’m sure; I don’t.
 

redIndianDevil

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I've never witnessed a footballer quite like Anthony Martial. He suffers no known physical ailment nor has he been diagnosed with a mental illness, and he certainly isn't old by a reasonable standard, yet he plays like he either doesn't give a shit or is physical unable to get out of second gear.
Common man. We don’t know physically what he is going through. Phil Jones isn’t old either and look at what he went through. Serial injuries does cause problems to players.
 

justsomebloke

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He was often frustrating from the start, I thought. As you say, he has the talent and had a few spells of good performances but was basically inconsistent, like a lot of young players. He didn’t seem to enjoy playing under Jose.

Rashford took a huge beating on here, despite racking up a very high appearance count over the last few seasons. His performances were inconsistent and often poor. Why? Because he was playing with injuries and was never fully fit. This season he mostly had good fitness and we saw what a difference it makes.

I don’t think Martial is fit. he might not be officially injured but he hasn’t played enough games and he just doesn’t look fit.

If Martial could get fit and stay fit (yes I heard how crazy that sounds) he could do what Rashford has done. Nobody believes he will, I’m sure; I don’t.
It looks obvious that he's lost a step - not much acceleration. Hard to say if it's a permanent thing or just something temporary from one of his several smallish injuries this season.
 

OrcaFat

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It looks obvious that he's lost a step - not much acceleration. Hard to say if it's a permanent thing or just something temporary from one of his several smallish injuries this season.
Yeah. He needs sharpness in his game. If that’s missing, for whatever reason, he struggles to be effective. You have to wonder if his physical qualities are being eroded by these injuries.

I don’t think it’s an attitude problem. EtH said he was campaigning to be selected before he was really ready, he was that keen to play. If he’s grumpy after being subbed off, it’s probably frustration with himself. The will is there but the body, at the moment, won’t oblige.
 

lex talionis

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Common man. We don’t know physically what he is going through. Phil Jones isn’t old either and look at what he went through. Serial injuries does cause problems to players.
I think you meant come on, man; not common man!

We definitely don't know what Martial is going through, mentally or physically and I think I indicated that in the first place. We know, for example, that last year his wife dumped him after he cheated on her while she was pregnant. The psychological toll of that crisis isn't something most of here in the caf can possibly comprehend.
 

Peelhead

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Off field life naturally can have a major impact. Nothing to do with Anthony Martial but that case where Mason Mount was being stalked by a very determined person sounds like a real problem.

It happens.
 

redIndianDevil

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I think you meant come on, man; not common man!

We definitely don't know what Martial is going through, mentally or physically and I think I indicated that in the first place. We know, for example, that last year his wife dumped him after he cheated on her while she was pregnant. The psychological toll of that crisis isn't something most of here in the caf can possibly comprehend.
Yeah that’s what I meant :)

I didn’t know about his personal life. But people here expect footballers to be machines. It’s not like he is not following what the doctors are saying or his lifestyle is causing injuries.
 

lex talionis

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Yeah that’s what I meant :)

I didn’t know about his personal life. But people here expect footballers to be machines. It’s not like he is not following what the doctors are saying or his lifestyle is causing injuries.
Martial has apparently had a rough go of things personally while living in Manchester the last 8 years. Reports of serial infidelity in particular and now a failed marriage. Who knows how often he sees his child. The cut of his jib is such that he looks unhappy with life. He certainly expresses no joy on the pitch.
 

redIndianDevil

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Martial has apparently had a rough go of things personally while living in Manchester the last 8 years. Reports of serial infidelity in particular and now a failed marriage. Who knows how often he sees his child. The cut of his jib is such that he looks unhappy with life. He certainly expresses no joy on the pitch.
I don’t think his infidelity has anything to do with Manchester. He is going to be the same anywhere he goes if he is like that here. Not even the club doctors/coaches could speculate personal things like that is the cause for his poor form or injury concern. If things like that are the cause of his poor form he has no sympathy from me, we should look to get rid off him.
 

NoPace

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I was sort of surprised looking at his FBREF stats today - he looks like an incredibly well rounded striker…

https://fbref.com/en/players/8b788c01/Anthony-Martial
He's been good enough this season when he's played to be our backup #9, and I think as a result Ten Hag rates him, the problem is he's always hurt and he's not a good option off the bench against teams parking the bus when we need to bring a striker on because he's allergic to the 6 yard box.

If Ten Hag thinks he can be healthy for say 2/3rds of next season, I think he'll stay and we'll only sign one striker and Rashford will be the other #9. Somewhat depends on if Sancho stays or not, though.
 

OrcaFat

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I don’t think his infidelity has anything to do with Manchester. He is going to be the same anywhere he goes if he is like that here. Not even the club doctors/coaches could speculate personal things like that is the cause for his poor form or injury concern. If things like that are the cause of his poor form he has no sympathy from me, we should look to get rid off him.
I think the suggestion is that there are probably a multitude of factors that can affect a player’s ability to produce his best form consistently.

I doubt if Martial wants our sympathy but being injured a lot is bad for the mind as well as the body. When they aren’t playing some players feel disconnected from the group, possibly get bored or lonely, who knows? Problems with family/ wives etc is pretty common but add that into the mix and it’s not hard to imagine players getting into a mental / emotional state that affects their game.

I would put the injuries at the root of it all. There’s people saying he played 30/40 games a season for us until the last two or three years but he was always getting little injuries at times when his place in the team was not secure. I’d say his whole career has been blighted by injury. He’s not alone in that but some players cope better than others.

He is very talented but things haven’t gone his way. I’d happily see him leave the club as soon as we sign another striker. At the moment it’s him or WW!
 

lex talionis

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I don’t think his infidelity has anything to do with Manchester. He is going to be the same anywhere he goes if he is like that here. Not even the club doctors/coaches could speculate personal things like that is the cause for his poor form or injury concern. If things like that are the cause of his poor form he has no sympathy from me, we should look to get rid off him.
We definitely can't blame the conurbation of Manchester for Martial's infidelities. We're all speculating without having firm knowledge of WTF is wrong with him, but at this point I seriously doubt it's down to injuries. What seems most likely, as I write this on my laptop, is that he's never truly been happy at Old Trafford and with not living in France. He started brilliantly, but the manager's tactics didn't allow him to blossom into a worldbeater. Then Jose came and with Jose came a negative mentality and we all know the impact the arrival of Alexis had on Anthony. Anthony enjoyed an uptick in form in the early days of Ole, but when Ole fell apart Anthony never recovered.

We're handcuffed to Martial because of his wages, which no sane club would ever agree to pay, but if somehow possible we should let him go even it meant going on a free transfer.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Martial has apparently had a rough go of things personally while living in Manchester the last 8 years. Reports of serial infidelity in particular and now a failed marriage. Who knows how often he sees his child. The cut of his jib is such that he looks unhappy with life. He certainly expresses no joy on the pitch.
Poor lad.
 

GueRed

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If Martial was English he would've been driven out by the fanbase ages ago. 8 fecking years man, and IMO only one solid season. Not good enough.

Alongside Bailly the most overrated player we've had in the last ten years.
 

OrcaFat

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We definitely can't blame the conurbation of Manchester for Martial's infidelities. We're all speculating without having firm knowledge of WTF is wrong with him, but at this point I seriously doubt it's down to injuries. What seems most likely, as I write this on my laptop, is that he's never truly been happy at Old Trafford and with not living in France. He started brilliantly, but the manager's tactics didn't allow him to blossom into a worldbeater. Then Jose came and with Jose came a negative mentality and we all know the impact the arrival of Alexis had on Anthony. Anthony enjoyed an uptick in form in the early days of Ole, but when Ole fell apart Anthony never recovered.

We're handcuffed to Martial because of his wages, which no sane club would ever agree to pay, but if somehow possible we should let him go even it meant going on a free transfer.
All plausible interpretations! But I do think the injuries are a massive factor. He’s got another chance tonight but even if he starts doing well, you have to think a parting of ways is inevitable as soon as it becomes financially possible.
 

UnitedRepublic

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He will probably hit form against City. Can’t be easy having a start stop start stop season he’s had and coming back at the end of it knowing the season is about to end. He’ll get games next season to prove himself to Ten Hag starting from the bench but he might win himself a starting spot we shall see.
 

Rockets Redglare

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Such a weird performance. Some of his link up play was very good but Christ his touch has completely gone.