Anthony Martial as Number 9

haram

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Martial’s runs are calculated :lol:

That’s a new one. His calculator must be broken.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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He's doesn't move at all which is the reason some think he's uninterested, doesn't care or invisible etc. As I said it's not all these it's because off the ball he simply a passenger. His style is to receive the ball, dribble past defender and put the ball in the far corner. Otherwise he's a statue down there.

He'll never make it here or anyone else with this style of play and technique won't take him far without doing the basics which is continuous moving and running. Continuously describing the running people want from him as "headless chicken" is laughable.
And this is why it's better to play Martial in the middle and ask him to press the central defenders than be a makeshift winger that has to give up on positioning for his ball at feet type dribbling.

Play him centrally - you get a player whose defensive job is to press the central defenders, whose got the ability to hold up the ball when he receives it with the back towards them, make a turn, make a short pass or make a shot.

Im not backing the lad here. Just that a left winger is rubbish for him - he doesn't make attacking runs because he doesn't get the ball to his feet which is what initiates his dribbling and he doesn't make enough backwards defensive runs on shaw because this puts him off the right position to attack with the ball at his feet.

He is too lazy & set up on his optimal way of playing by playing as a left winger - even though before Sanchez he was doing well for Jose.

If he plays centrally his defensive duties are set in a position that correlates much more with his exact attacking abilities and specialities.
 

Canagel

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Martial’s runs are calculated :lol:

That’s a new one. His calculator must be broken.
Sorry he didn't run around enough to placate the passionistas. :lol: he should start "busting his gut" from now on.
 

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He's doesn't move at all which is the reason some think he's uninterested, doesn't care or invisible etc. As I said it's not all these it's because off the ball he simply a passenger. His style is to receive the ball, dribble past defender and put the ball in the far corner. Otherwise he's a statue down there.

He'll never make it here or anyone else with this style of play and technique won't take him far without doing the basics which is continuous moving and running. Continuously describing the running people want from him as "headless chicken" is laughable.
You're still not addressing my point. Football is a team game so if Martial is a passenger off the ball then striker is the one position where you can get away with it. You only need to cover spaces, you don't have to be pressing like a maniac all the time. If he's played in the right system with the other players compensating for his weaknesses then it's not a problem is it? False 9 with high workrate either side of him, where's the issue?

We stand to create more chances with him as a focal point as his touch is actually stable so moves won't break down as often. He also is an unselfish striker and doesn't freeze in front of goal unlike a certain someone. That alone is more than enough for him to be played up-front.
 

haram

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Sorry he didn't run around enough to placate the passionistas. :lol: he should start "busting his gut" from now on.
Stop trying to spin it that way :lol:

Yeah the problem is the passionistas that want him to run around aimlessly. His movement is shit, period. How deluded can you get.
 

JJ12

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Sorry he didn't run around enough to placate the passionistas. :lol: he should start "busting his gut" from now on.
He's a lazy cnut - nevermind showing any sort of passion
 

ArjenIsM3

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Why not? His style is very smooth and yes very calculated- I don't see the other players making give and go and do a run in behind for eg. Just because he doesn't do blind running for the sake it is not meaning he refuses to make runs. Fans just wants to see headless chickens because "pashun" or some other crap.
Martial's work rate and movement is shite. It's for all to see (luckily, most do) and stats back it up as well. He's had a few chances to play as a strikes but he just goes missing because he doesn't move.

Just because fans (and Ole) want to see our team work harder doesn't mean they want to see headless chickens. We were one of the laziest teams in the prem pre-Ole and again stats back it up if you somehow couldn't spot it with your own eyes. It has nothing to do with "pashun" and you and others using that in a condescending way towards people who feel our players should give it their all is getting very old tbh.
 

Canagel

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Stop with this "most clinical" thing. This stat is probably done by dividing his goals by the chances he got. If the chances he got aren't much then of course he'll be the most clinical, and it'll cover the fact he doesn't get many chances because of his awful off ball movements which, if you're as interested in stats, it showed in several stats with him one of the bottom 5 laziest forwards in the league alongside Lukaku.
And still he converts his chancces at very high rate and in team that can be devoided of creativity and is handicapped on the right wing it's not bad at all.

And remember it's not 5k running at the Athletics it's football. :)
 

el3mel

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You're still not addressing my point. Football is a team game so if Martial is a passenger off the ball then striker is the one position where you can get away with it. You only need to cover spaces, you don't have to be pressing like a maniac all the time. If he's played in the right system with the other players compensating for his weaknesses then it's not a problem is it?

We stand to create more chances with him as a focal point as his touch is actually stable so moves won't break down as often. He also is an unselfish striker and doesn't freeze in front of goal unlike a certain someone. That alone is more than enough for him to be played up-front.
You don't get it. There's no position that can get away with being awful in movement, and there's no reason to choose between being technical and being a runner. Running is the basic for any footballer, then you add other qualities above it.

The bold part is only logical if you're having Messi or Ronaldo up front, a player that may have 1 weakness but you know he'll get you +40 goals a season so it's worth building the entire team around him to cover for this weakness and put the platform for him to score his 40-50 goals a season.

Of course neither us nor any English team have this kind of player so simply every player needs to play their role and no can afford to be a passenger off the ball.
 

el3mel

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And still he converts his chancces at very high rate and in team that can be devoided of creativity and is handicapped on the right wing it's not bad at all.

And remember it's not 5k running at the Athletics it's football. :)
If you can't create many chances you won't score many goals and thus you'll end nowhere near the top even if you scored most of these chances.

Martial had only 10 goals in 27 matches in the league this season, which is nothing great to look at really.
 

Sandikan

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We all know we have some gaps on the right, in midfield and need a big centre back.

But our attack is my biggest worry.
Rashford and Martial you feel would be support cast for a team wanting to win things- not the main guys.

If you get the attack right, you always have a chance - Klopp showed that early doors at Liverpool.
We certainly haven't got it right.
 

Majima

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You don't get it. There's no position that can get away with being awful in movement, and there's no reason to choose between being technical and being a runner. Running is the basic for any footballer, then you add other qualities above it.

The bold part is only logical if you're having Messi or Ronaldo up front, a player that may have 1 weakness but you know he'll get you +40 goals a season so it's worth building the entire team around him to cover for this weakness and put the platform for him to score his 40-50 goals a season.

Of course neither us nor any English team have this kind of player so simply every player needs to play their role and no can afford to be a passenger off the ball.
I understand your point and agree in general. Where i'm coming from is, i believe his weaknesses are worth compensating for, as we would have a higher potential as an attacking team with him as the focal point.

He is clinical and focused in front of goal so who knows what his output could be like. I'm just comparing him against his team-mates and what i think the team is currently missing.

His strengths are greater when compared against our other options. It's as simple as that.

It's flawed using Rashford/Lukaku as the focal point as they have major weaknesses holding the team back. Martial doesn't have that unless you class running as a major weakness and i don't, if surrounded by the right players it can be compensated for like you say.
 
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el3mel

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I understand your point and agree in general. Where i'm coming from is, i believe his weaknesses are worth compensating for, as we would have a higher potential as an attacking team with him as the focal point.

His strengths are greater when compared against our other options. It's as simple as that.

It's flawed using Rashford/Lukaku as the focal point as they have major weaknesses holding the team back. Martial doesn't have that unless you class running as a major weakness and i don't, if surrounded by the right players it can be compensated for like you say.
I don't like Lukaku and Rashford as well for other problems they have. I think we need to rebuild our attack as the current one is too weak in comparison to ther rivals at the top.
 

VP89

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I agree with your opinion on Rashford. It's tricky as he even struggled out on the wing too as his dribbling wasn't good enough.

I'm not just saying to throw anyone up there. As i stated above, if we are looking to build a fluid attack (which it seems we want to do), I believe Martial is the best striker we have. He's technically superior to Rashford & Lukaku.

If we have the means to bring in a top-class experienced striker then fair enough. But until then, Martial deserves a chance surely?
Martial has regressed. He may grow into a top player, but he needs to show more fight and fight for his place. We shouldn't operate this club where we give chances to players out of default. It's the number 9 role, it should be sought after and competed among great strikers.

That's a horrible way of sorting out football.

Just buying the next footballer who scores goals and hope they just blend in with the likes of Rashford, Martial & Greenwood. Sounds like you would buy Lukaku again just because he scored 20 goals for Everton - when in reality the guy doesn't blend in with the other footballers.
Where did I say that? I said the next striker should be an actual striker. Not some academy kid who played on the wing and we've taken a punt on up top, who struggles for consistency in goals or general play. Replacing him with someone who is equally if not more inconsistent is a laughably daft approach. What we should do is purchase a striker who 1) is established in his position and 2) has a track record of experience to fall back on. Him blending with James or Rashford, or Pogba in behind is a pre-requisite that goes without saying.

The striker needs to be able to hold the ball up, make runs in behind, have better decision making and a much better conversion rate. Martial is proven in none of that. In fact, he has proved he's pretty shite in making runs and general decision making.

Rashford is also not a kick & rush footballer - he is a footballer that plays better when the team has the tempo to play with the ball at their feet. The same with Martial and I'm sure Greenwood too. Rashford has been struggling because the fans godly manager turned him in to a winger that spends half his time crossing for Lukaku and the next wondering if be should shoot or not. The same thing with Martial - all the whilst whilst no one has bought a RW for 4-5 years to help the other side :eek: Rashford now struggles playing as the focal point of an attack in a team that play counter attacking football where the opposition has more time with the ball at their feet than ours.
Rashford is literally kick and rush. His decision making is inconsistent, his finishing is inconsistent, he's not exactly superior in the air, he gets brushed off the ball easily and he has a so-so dribbling ratio of beating players. The times he does beat players is almost always down to him out pacing the last man, or the full back (i.e. knock past them and run around them). I don't need you to tell me he's not a kick and rush footballer - I watch him week in week out. The excuses we make for him need to stop. Does he have potential? feck yes, and he can be a terrific maybe even world class player. Is he showing signs of that? It's getting less and less likely he is now compared to before.

Lukaku for all his vices is a better striker than he is, and he was better at 18, 19, 20, 21. He was killing it at West Brom with scraps to feed on, and whilst he has gotten pretty tubby this season he still falls back on 27 goals in his debut year for United - but no one likes to remember that because 1) he's not an academy lad and 2) he's inconsistent in his first touch - which to be honest is important but still not as big a hole as the 100 ones in Rashford's game.



The fact is - whether you like it or not :

Rashford - Martial - Greenwood/Lukaku

Is more balanced than

Martial - Rashford - Greenwood/Lukaku.
What sort of a statement is this? You have nothing to fall back on with this other than an opinion - Greenwood who has barely played for us, Martial who himself is terribly inconsistent with a piss poor attitude and refusal to work on the pitch and then Rashford where we've discussed.

Lukaku has an established record of scoring goals - if we get no one in to replace him he is the best option to start forward. Rashford is a winger, we keep him there. Martial can fight for his place. You might as well keep Sanchez and start him instead, at least you know he'll work off the ball.

One player is good as short passes and holding up the ball whilst falling in deep to bring the defenders out of position whilst the others have the ability to dribble in to space with pace and unleash a powerful shot with their stronger feet.

That is all without buying a single player. If one player was to leave here then it should be Lukaku and replace the lad with someone like Pepe or the Nigerian lad for villa Real - left footed attackers whilst trying to get a false 9 to compete with Martial so the lad himself has to step his game up to play either as a False 9 or as a LF in place of Rashford.

Please don't tell me you're referring to Martial there. Did you watch any of his appearances under Ole in the last 2 months? He couldn't pass a bakery or run for a bus.

If we need a better wider forward then we have players like Lukaku, Mata and even Lingard to sell.
I'd sell Martial twice before selling Lukaku. If it was a striker's role we're talking about I'd sell Rashford before him too. Lukaku had a shit season - I get that. I'm not defending his Mr. Tubbs performances this campaign - but I've seen enough of him in 5-6 years to know he's generally a bankable 18-25 goal a season striker. I categorically cannot say that about Rashford nor Martial.
 

OldTrevil

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Martial does run but he runs in a different way. A more economical calculated way. Running is not important upfront otherwise Rashford is the best striker in the world already. If you run in a intelligent way you'll be running less.
Stop it, the caf is not interested in sense getting in the way of an established narrative... Just because the guy doesn't run around in isolation like a headless chicken for 90 minutes, come the narrative that he's a lazy and you'd think he walks at crawling pace the way some describe his movement. Martial is geared to making short bursts, that's why he's good in tight spaces and making quick but sudden moves. He should absolutely get a chance to play in the middle as most of his attributes are maximized there, it would be criminal not trying it in my view.
 

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I don't like Lukaku and Rashford as well for other problems they have. I think we need to rebuild our attack as the current one is too weak in comparison to ther rivals at the top.
Now that i completely agree with. After-all, I just don't want to see us continue next season with the same ineffective shape and lineup, when we might have solutions in the squad already.
 

Canagel

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Martial's work rate and movement is shite. It's for all to see (luckily, most do) and stats back it up as well. He's had a few chances to play as a strikes but he just goes missing because he doesn't move.

Just because fans (and Ole) want to see our team work harder doesn't mean they want to see headless chickens. We were one of the laziest teams in the prem pre-Ole and again stats back it up if you somehow couldn't spot it with your own eyes. It has nothing to do with "pashun" and you and others using that in a condescending way towards people who feel our players should give it their all is getting very old tbh.
But he does move. I always see him make try to make one touch two touch moves and get in behind, he lacks some top speed but its not a big deal. When he did he go missing as the striker? I don't remember this season. The last time he played at 9 we beat Everton 2-0 (January 2018) and he scored great goal. He moves in a different way that is not being optimized in his current position. Thats all to it imo.
 

Enigma_87

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He's better as LWF. Don't believe he's the Henry type he was been labelled in his first season. I'd have rather Rashford up top.

Starting the season without an experienced #9 would be a mistake though. Rashford needs time.
 

Majima

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But he does move. I always see him make try to make one touch two touch moves and get in behind, he lacks some top speed but its not a big deal. When he did he go missing as the striker? I don't remember this season. The last time he played at 9 we beat Everton 2-0 (January 2018) and he scored great goal. He moves in a different way that is not being optimized in his current position. Thats all to it imo.
That curler he scored... sumptuous. :drool: I remember hoping after that game that he would be given an extended run up-front.

Look at his highlights for that game and tell me it's not night and day compared to what we see now.

 

Canagel

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That curler he scored... sumptuous. :drool: I remember hoping after that game that he would be given an extended run up-front.

Look at his highlights for that game and tell me it's not night and day compared to what we see now.

Yes that was one of his best and more complete matches- but only because Lukaku had a concussion and didn't travel. All the attacking moves flowed like a river.
 

Majima

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Yes that was one of his best and more complete matches- but only because Lukaku had a concussion and didn't travel. All the attacking moves flowed like a river.
One of the rare times we got to see him up-front and he didn't disappoint. People must have got amnesia with the way he's scoffed at these days.
 

Dec9003

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I don't think it matters if he plays on the wing or as a striker.
At the moment he isn't applying himself on the pitch, he's always static which makes him very easy to defend against.
If he commited himself in an attacking sense, he would be dangerous coming off the wing or starting upfront; if he doesn't, he won't make it at United.
I'm not too bothered if he busts a gut to get back or not, but he needs to be more dynamic in attack.
 

Enigma_87

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Yep. Fully agree.

Sell him.
He's a flair player and confidence player. If the club tactically and off the pitch is a mess his form will suffer.

All in all he could be better and just signed new contract.

He isn't the player we could build around like we hoped initially but certainly more useful than the likes of Jones who is either injured or shite.
 

Canagel

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Stop it, the caf is not interested in sense getting in the way of an established narrative... Just because the guy doesn't run around in isolation like a headless chicken for 90 minutes, come the narrative that he's a lazy and you'd think he walks at crawling pace the way some describe his movement. Martial is geared to making short bursts, that's why he's good in tight spaces and making quick but sudden moves. He should absolutely get a chance to play in the middle as most of his attributes are maximized there, it would be criminal not trying it in my view.
Exactly. I'm still trying to understand how he managed to score all these goal vs top 6 for example without moving. Our ailing attack is desperate for something different and there's clear shortage of proven strikers on the market- all the good ones are getting old now of course it's sense to see what Martial can do and get run of games. If we let Caf have their way we'll line up with team of 10 Rashfords/Lingards and be the new Burnley.
 
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Pearl of Wisdom

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I'm not convinced Martial would improve us playing as a true 9. He is certainly no Vardi sprinting from the defender after holding his run to beat offside (I don't think Ive ever witnessed him actually sprint at Old Trafford tbh) although he can hit the target more often than not if presented with an opportunity. Actually beating the keeper is another matter though.
I think he could play the high press from the 11 position though, because the guy can beat man and create space, the main issue has been his passing options, or serious lack of, once he has created that space. This usually leads to martial running towards the left flank whilst he waits for his team mates to get into a useful position whilst being hounded by 2 defenders. Then either losing the ball to the defenders allowing them to break on us, then dropping his head and then 'a sort of' tracking back with dwindling enthusiasm, or he takes the initiative and tries to pass to a marked team mate (they are all marked and seem happy to stand and be marked out of the attack), the ball is intercepted and they break on us, then Martial drops his head and then 'sort of' tracks back with dwindling enthusiasm.
So if we set the team up to create space and then attack that space in the final 3rd, I think Martial will suit that system because he has options that dont require rapid thinking and actions. Instead a skilled build up and space exploitation in that area. Thus when he beats his man and then turns, he has 2 or 3 easy passes available to maintain the attack and can play the ball to a team mate in a manner that allows him to easily control it and distribute to create space or opportunity.

Ive been saying for a few years that we are too wasteful with the ball in attack and waste way too much energy tracking back, from giving up possession cheaply. Sort this out and Martial becomes a much better player for us. His movement is then positive, and so will be his mood and enthusiasm.
Good footballers make the ball do all the work, lesser footballers run to shorten the distance of the pass to increase accuracy but usually suffer energy deficiency towards the end.
 

Gasolin

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That curler he scored... sumptuous. :drool: I remember hoping after that game that he would be given an extended run up-front.

Look at his highlights for that game and tell me it's not night and day compared to what we see now.

What I like in this game was that he moves and get into central position, when Pogba or others go left, and that gives an extra option. Goal comes that ways as well.
 

Scholsey2004

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The general consensus is that the movement of all our attacking players is abysmal and there are no runners from midfield either.

Martial can start anywhere in the field for all i care. If he wont make the right runs to stretch the defence and continue to sulk and look lazy, it doesnt matter if he is a 9, 11 or 7.

IMO he should sit on the bench, watch videos of sadio mane, till he wakes up and realizes the effort and commitment expected from an attacking player at Man Utd.
This. The guys workrate is statistically proven to be abyssmal. We'd be looking at hard times indeed if we were relying on him to pull his finger out up front.
 

ArjenIsM3

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But he does move. I always see him make try to make one touch two touch moves and get in behind, he lacks some top speed but its not a big deal. When he did he go missing as the striker? I don't remember this season. The last time he played at 9 we beat Everton 2-0 (January 2018) and he scored great goal. He moves in a different way that is not being optimized in his current position. Thats all to it imo.
Last time I believe was Wolves away (2-1 loss) where he was brought on to replace Lukaku for the final 20 minutes or so.
 

Lennon7

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Martial ran an average of 5-6km per 90 this season or something like that. That’s fecking pathetic, how can anyone defend him in that area? He doesn’t bloody make runs never mind calculated ones.
 

Mark Pawelek

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What's not to like about it? Martial is the most lethal striker we have in terms of chances : chances converted ratio. Put new guy James on the left wing.

Apart from this:
Martial ran an average of 5-6km per 90 this season or something like that. That’s fecking pathetic, how can anyone defend him in that area? He doesn’t bloody make runs never mind calculated ones.
But is he really so lazy. Have to check those numbers, they are low.