[Santiago_KinderBueno]

If Valencia is following instructions we have bigger problems than his selection

I think this is really unfair. Taking on players unnecessarily is one of the fundamentals of van gaals methods. Its one of the reasons he has had such poor relations with Brazilian players because its a core part of its approach.

If our defence doesnt keep possesion it is almost nigh on impossible for the rest of them to keep possesion.

The same goes for needless shots and crossing not only because it wastes possesion; but also because we dont evem have the right strikers to utilise this tactic.

We want our approach to attacking and defending both to be team co-ordinated; as such valencia's performances have been better suited to van gaals team than either SAF's or Moyes's.

At his age; there is almost no reason to replace him with another attacking fullback because he just wont have the ability to play with commin sense that valencia has in abundance.

 

[Ekeke]

I think this is really unfair. Taking on players unnecessarily is one of the fundamentals of van gaals methods. Its one of the reasons he has had such poor relations with Brazilian players because its a core part of its approach.

If our defence doesnt keep possesion it is almost nigh on impossible for the rest of them to keep possesion.

The same goes for needless shots and crossing not only because it wastes possesion; but also because we dont evem have the right strikers to utilise this tactic.

We want our approach to attacking and defending both to be team co-ordinated; as such valencia's performances have been better suited to van gaals team than either SAF's or Moyes's.

At his age; there is almost no reason to replace him with another attacking fullback because he just wont have the ability to play with commin sense that valencia has in abundance.

Not talking about any of that. He goes wandering way out of position with no gain to the team and exposing our right side in the process.

If Valencia is just following orders, then LVG is the questionable one.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Valencia is a backup right back. Simply not good enough for a club that wants to win trophies. Good squad player.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think this is really unfair. Taking on players unnecessarily is one of the fundamentals of van gaals methods. Its one of the reasons he has had such poor relations with Brazilian players because its a core part of its approach.

If our defence doesnt keep possesion it is almost nigh on impossible for the rest of them to keep possesion.

The same goes for needless shots and crossing not only because it wastes possesion; but also because we dont evem have the right strikers to utilise this tactic.

We want our approach to attacking and defending both to be team co-ordinated; as such valencia's performances have been better suited to van gaals team than either SAF's or Moyes's.

At his age; there is almost no reason to replace him with another attacking fullback because he just wont have the ability to play with commin sense that valencia has in abundance.

That's simply untrue. Being limited and not a proper right back, doesn't mean you have more common sense than others. Dani Alves is on a different planet as a fullback, and Valencia doesn't trump him on some arbitrary common sense index. He's just inferior, in almost every way.

Like I said, Valencia's alright. He can have good games, can do a decent job, always works hard. But this club should have fullbacks like Evra, Gary Neville etc, not Valencia, as the starting right back.

 

[NK86]

I think this is really unfair. Taking on players unnecessarily is one of the fundamentals of van gaals methods. Its one of the reasons he has had such poor relations with Brazilian players because its a core part of its approach.

If our defence doesnt keep possesion it is almost nigh on impossible for the rest of them to keep possesion.

The same goes for needless shots and crossing not only because it wastes possesion; but also because we dont evem have the right strikers to utilise this tactic.

We want our approach to attacking and defending both to be team co-ordinated; as such valencia's performances have been better suited to van gaals team than either SAF's or Moyes's.

At his age; there is almost no reason to replace him with another attacking fullback because he just wont have the ability to play with commin sense that valencia has in abundance.

Because Valencia is the bench mark for how great a RB should be?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Imagine if we had gotten Dani Alves. So much common sense on the bench

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

Imagine if we had gotten Dani Alves. So much common sense on the bench

I would say that dani alves is the only RB who can attack and defend with common sense. The likes of coleman and rafael are complete live-wires compared to valencia.
Being a live-wire full back was once the way to go under SAF; but now we are a possesion based team and a live wire full back is not best suited to it.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

Because Valencia is the bench mark for how great a RB should be?

Thats assuming that everybody seems to want to replace valencia with a more attacking fullback when a very few people see the benefits of a defensive minded RB; like carjaval or even van gaals indication of using mcnair as a RB.

 

[NK86]

Thats assuming that everybody seems to want to replace valencia with a more attacking fullback when a very few people see the benefits of a defensive minded RB; like carjaval or even van gaals indication of using mcnair as a RB.

Just because you are an attacking FB does not mean you cannot defend for toffees. Someone like Coleman would provide both and be better than Valencia in both those traits.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Thats assuming that everybody seems to want to replace valencia with a more attacking fullback when a very few people see the benefits of a defensive minded RB; like carjaval or even van gaals indication of using mcnair as a RB.

People don't want a more attacking fullback they want a quality fullback. They tend to be better in most areas relevant to that position than Valencia.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

Just because you are an attacking FB does not mean you cannot defend for toffees. Someone like Coleman would provide both and be better than Valencia in both those traits.

According to who? Coleman is a marginal improvement on valencia. Valencia is not a great RB; but is able to play under instruction something coleman's game is not made out to do. Coleman in particular is a bombshell on the right hand side and although it might sound appealing; we dont play with any attacking ariel threats these days to utilise his crosses.

It's one thing if moyes bought coleman but its a totally different style of play to what van gaals possesion teams are built on.

Van gaal did say that Mcnair could be our RB for the next 10 years; which part of that screams out to you that we are in need of an attacking fullback?

 

[NK86]

According to who? Coleman is a marginal improvement on valencia. Valencia is not a great RB; but is able to play under instruction something coleman's game is not made out to do. Coleman in particular is a bombshell on the right hand side and although it might sound appealing; we dont play with any attacking ariel threats these days to utilise his crosses.

It's one thing if moyes bought coleman but its a totally different style of play to what van gaals possesion teams are built on.

Van gaal did say that Mcnair could be our RB for the next 10 years; which part of that screams out to you that we are in need of an attacking fullback?

The bold part is an absolute imagination from you. You dont have the first clue if Coleman is someone who can play under instructions. Just because he has a good attacking presence does not mean he is meandering forward against instructions. Everton are a mid-table side and Coleman has had to do a lot of defending and he has done that much better than Valencia who is positionally all over the place most of the time. Even in that Everton game, he went to sleep and let Mirallas through on goal. That is not the sign of a man who has "common sense".

As for VG saying McNair could be our RB, from his history his record in the market is very questionable. He didn't want Neuer if reports are to be believed. As for whether he wants an attacking RB or not, all that can be said is there are better options out there who would be an improvement on Valencia.

And I find it funny that you say "according to who" when people claim Coleman is much better than Valencia but in the next statement state that Coleman is a marginal improvement and put it as if it is to be treated as a fact.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

The bold part is an absolute imagination from you. You dont have the first clue if Coleman is someone who can play under instructions. Just because he has a good attacking presence does not mean he is meandering forward against instructions. Everton are a mid-table side and Coleman has had to do a lot of defending and he has done that much better than Valencia who is positionally all over the place most of the time. Even in that Everton game, he went to sleep and let Mirallas through on goal. That is not the sign of a man who has "common sense".

As for VG saying McNair could be our RB, from his history his record in the market is very questionable. He didn't want Neuer if reports are to be believed. As for whether he wants an attacking RB or not, all that can be said is there are better options out there who would be an improvement on Valencia.

And I find it funny that you say "according to who" when people claim Coleman is much better than Valencia but in the next statement state that Coleman is a marginal improvement and put it as if it is to be treated as a fact.

He is marginal improvent because he plays for a team which utilises his strengths. The same way fellaini is a much better fit for everton still even more than for united. The fact is that out of our 4 fullbacks last season; the better two were the more defensive minded fullbacks in blind & valencia. Shaw & rafael through injury or not were hardly influential.

If people wanted coleman because he so so far superior to valencia defensively then i'd question why we wouldn't purchase the likes of carjaval, ramos and other defensive RB's.

Most of our fans are stuck in this attacking fullback nonsense when teams like chelsea & city have perfectly capable defensive RB's in ivanovic & zabaleta. Not only do they keep possesion better but they play with common sense which is fundamental to possesion football.

 

[Ekeke]

He is marginal improvent because he plays for a team which utilises his strengths. The same way fellaini is a much better fit for everton still even more than for united. The fact is that out of our 4 fullbacks last season; the better two were the more defensive minded fullbacks in blind & valencia. Shaw & rafael through injury or not were hardly influential.

If people wanted coleman because he so so far superior to valencia defensively then i'd question why we wouldn't purchase the likes of carjaval, ramos and other defensive RB's.

Most of our fans are stuck in this attacking fullback nonsense when teams like chelsea & city have perfectly capable defensive RB's in ivanovic & zabaleta. Not only do they keep possesion better but they play with common sense which is fundamental to possesion football.

What on earth are you talking about? How is Valencia classed as a defensive minded fullback, and Shaw not so when Shaw has shown natural defensive qualities despite his young age and Valencia continues to clearly lack some defensive skills, even though he's a very experienced player in his prime?

 

[acnumber9]

The bold part is an absolute imagination from you. You dont have the first clue if Coleman is someone who can play under instructions. Just because he has a good attacking presence does not mean he is meandering forward against instructions. Everton are a mid-table side and Coleman has had to do a lot of defending and he has done that much better than Valencia who is positionally all over the place most of the time. Even in that Everton game, he went to sleep and let Mirallas through on goal. That is not the sign of a man who has "common sense".

As for VG saying McNair could be our RB, from his history his record in the market is very questionable. He didn't want Neuer if reports are to be believed. As for whether he wants an attacking RB or not, all that can be said is there are better options out there who would be an improvement on Valencia.

And I find it funny that you say "according to who" when people claim Coleman is much better than Valencia but in the next statement state that Coleman is a marginal improvement and put it as if it is to be treated as a fact.

A mid table team with an awful defensive record.

 

[Smores]

At the start of the season no one here would have even suggested he should be our RB. Have his performances this season been upto the standard to convince otherwise?

90% is just stand still and pass it to another player stood 5 yards away. He walks back slowly when the opposition attacks. I'm not sure I've ever seen him correctly push a winger wide whilst defending as he's never been in that position it's always Smalling who comes across.

Our RB should be able to offer at least something beyond the basics whether that's great crossing, speed on the counter, beating a man or great defending.

The high rating of Valencia at RB on here recently by some is the strangest thing I've experienced on here since joining . I just don't get it.

 

[NK86]

He is marginal improvent because he plays for a team which utilises his strengths. The same way fellaini is a much better fit for everton still even more than for united. The fact is that out of our 4 fullbacks last season; the better two were the more defensive minded fullbacks in blind & valencia. Shaw & rafael through injury or not were hardly influential.

If people wanted coleman because he so so far superior to valencia defensively then i'd question why we wouldn't purchase the likes of carjaval, ramos and other defensive RB's.

Most of our fans are stuck in this attacking fullback nonsense when teams like chelsea & city have perfectly capable defensive RB's in ivanovic & zabaleta. Not only do they keep possesion better but they play with common sense which is fundamental to possesion football.

Valencia is bang average defensively. I just pointed out one huge mistake from him, yet you keep on ranting about how good he is defensively and how much more "common sense" he has compared to other attacking RBs out there. How the heck do you measure his common sense vis-a-vis someone like Coleman?

Also the point about Everton utilizing Coleman's strengths, that is what teams do. Utilize the strengths of their players. Also, Valencia is being utilized as a defensive RB in our system and he is still just about OK there.

 

[NK86]

A mid table team with an awful defensive record.

Our attacking record was average last season but can it be attributed to just one player?

 

[acnumber9]

Our attacking record was average last season but can it be attributed to just one player?

No but they all play their part. Coleman's game stands out because he scored a few goals. I don't think he's a particularly good defender.

 

[NK86]

No but they all play their part. Coleman's game stands out because he scored a few goals. I don't think he's a particularly good defender.

He may not be a Gary Neville in defense but he is better than Valencia, IMO.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

At the start of the season no one here would have even suggested he should be our RB. Have his performances this season been upto the standard to convince otherwise?

90% is just stand still and pass it to another player stood 5 yards away. He walks back slowly when the opposition attacks. I'm not sure I've ever seen him correctly push a winger wide whilst defending as he's never been in that position it's always Smalling who comes across.

Our RB should be able to offer at least something beyond the basics whether that's great crossing, speed on the counter, beating a man or great defending.

The high rating of Valencia at RB on here recently by some is the strangest thing I've experienced on here since joining . I just don't get it.

This is what i mean by common sense. 90% of the team stop running and pass the ball to the best positioned player. The only reason valencia is brutalised for doing so is that we know that he does it because he isnt able to take someone on from his time as a winger.

So buying someone who can take someone on is a worthless expenditure when nearly all of the team are taught to not lose possesion needlessly. Furthermore as gary neville commented after our win vs liverpool & city is that our defense is compact with almost no natural width. How exactly is coleman going to be great on the wide positions if we dont play to our width. Thats why van gaal sees a future in Mcnair because he can be a centrally orientated RB with thr ability to dribble heads up. The same goes for blind and unfortunately shaw will have a lot of adapting to do but has time on his side.

The only time van gaal gives any sort of freedom is to the wingers himself. The likes of depay, young, di maria (winger) are instructed to take the opposition on. Infact it's probably di maria's inability to do so that had him struggle towards the latter half of the season.

 

[acnumber9]

He may not be a Gary Neville in defense but he is better than Valencia, IMO.

The grass isn't always greener. Some people here refuse to see any positive in Valencia at all. Most minds are made up before the game starts. I think people are in for a rude awakening if they think a player like Coleman is going to come here and revolutionise our right back position.

 

[Ekeke]

The grass isn't always greener. Some people here refuse to see any positive in Valencia at all. Most minds are made up before the game starts. I think people are in for a rude awakening if they think a player like Coleman is going to come here and revolutionise our right back position.

He wouldnt need to. He'd just need to not wander off leaving a 3 man defence for half the game

Its a very basic thing to ask

 

[Oneunited26]

He wouldnt need to. He'd just need to not wander off leaving a 3 man defence for half the game

Its a very basic thing to ask

That is the problem with Valencia, and it is one of the reason's why a RB is needed, so we do not start leaking daft goals. Valencia did fit what was required last season, sometimes getting makesift players having to do a job there, now that VG does have a full summer, now is the time to strike it hot and get a RB who is specialized in that position. These are special summers, there is no world cup and European championships, so VG does have the freedom not waiting for players to return from duty. Because next summer is going to be awkward trying to get players in

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

The grass isn't always greener. Some people here refuse to see any positive in Valencia at all. Most minds are made up before the game starts. I think people are in for a rude awakening if they think a player like Coleman is going to come here and revolutionise our right back position.

Exactly. The way our defence is organised is not made up for a full throttle attacking fullback. We play so narrow at the back and expand widewards the further in attack we are. How coleman is going to be better than valencia at playing a completely un-natural game to either is what confuses me. I can see why someone like ramos playing at RB is much better.

People bring on valencia's past as a RW and expect him to bombard the flanks atleast with the same determination never mind success & accuracy but it wont happen qhen the whole team is built on ball retention.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I think this is really unfair. Taking on players unnecessarily is one of the fundamentals of van gaals methods. Its one of the reasons he has had such poor relations with Brazilian players because its a core part of its approach.

If our defence doesnt keep possesion it is almost nigh on impossible for the rest of them to keep possesion.

The same goes for needless shots and crossing not only because it wastes possesion; but also because we dont evem have the right strikers to utilise this tactic.

We want our approach to attacking and defending both to be team co-ordinated; as such valencia's performances have been better suited to van gaals team than either SAF's or Moyes's.

At his age; there is almost no reason to replace him with another attacking fullback because he just wont have the ability to play with commin sense that valencia has in abundance.

This is a post that actually makes a lot of sense but we don't really know how exactly LvG envisions next season's starting lineup. That's my only objection to what you wrote (i agree with the way you're thinking). You see, judging by last season's standards, Valencia was very important to van Gaal's plans. The very fact that the manager publicly defended him after the defensive error which led to Welbeck's goal in the FA Cup is, at least in my eyes, proof of that.

If we take a closer look to the squad LvG had to work with, we'll see that we didn't have enough options in the midfield, in terms of both quantity and quality, to connect the lines, improve our build up play and use possession to get players in more advanced positions. Our best option, Carrick, was out due to injury and in the beginning of the season we had to rely on Fletcher to do that. As the season progressed, Blind became an option but he still struggled to control the tempo and link up with others in the big games and away from home. LvG managed to turn Herrera into a proper #8 and when his passing in our half of the pitch reached higher standards, LvG even trusted him with Carrick's holding role when the latter got injured again. When we had both on the pitch, we played our best football in the season.

That's when Valencia comes into the picture. A player with a good first touch and pass n' move abilities, a player who can protect possession and most importantly he can carry the ball forward with safety. That's the main reason LvG trusted him on our right side no matter the starting formation. From that point of view it's true that Valencia was absolutely vital to LvG's attempts to build a possession based side.

On the other hand, this doesn't mean that the manager doesn't want a different kind of player at RB, if of course the right opportunity emerges. There's a notion among many United fans that possession football=attack through the middle which is false. As far as LvG is concerned, the Dutch 4-3-3, with reverse wingers and full backs providing width, is one of the basic principles of their playing style. In fact, we also used the wings to initiate attacking plays a lot during last season. And we really struggled from the fact that our opponents chose to defend in a very narrow shape simply because they expected no threats from our FBs' contribution in the final third.

Is Coleman the man for the job? Probably not but that doesn't mean we're not looking into the possibility of signing a different kind of RB, especially if we manage to improve our midfield options.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

This is a post that actually makes a lot of sense but we don't really know how exactly LvG envisions next season's starting lineup. That's my only objection to what you wrote (i agree with the way you're thinking). You see, judging by last season's standards, Valencia was very important to van Gaal's plans. The very fact that the manager publicly defended him after the defensive error which led to Welbeck's goal in the FA Cup is, at least in my eyes, proof of that.

If we take a closer look to the squad LvG had to work with, we'll see that we didn't have enough options in the midfield, in terms of both quantity and quality, to connect the lines, improve our build up play and use possession to get players in more advanced positions. Our best option, Carrick, was out due to injury and in the beginning of the season we had to rely on Fletcher to do that. As the season progressed, Blind became an option but he still struggled to control the tempo and link up with others in the big games and away from home. LvG managed to turn Herrera into a proper #8 and when his passing in our half of the pitch reached higher standards, LvG even trusted him with Carrick's holding role when the latter got injured again. When we had both on the pitch, we played our best football in the season.

That's when Valencia comes into the picture. A player with a good first touch and pass n' move abilities, a player who can protect possession and most importantly he can carry the ball forward with safety. That's the main reason LvG trusted him on our right side no matter the starting formation. From that point of view it's true that Valencia was absolutely vital to LvG's attempts to build a possession based side.

On the other hand, this doesn't mean that the manager doesn't want a different kind of player at RB, if of course the right opportunity emerges. There's a notion among many United fans that possession football=attack through the middle which is false. As far as LvG is concerned, the Dutch 4-3-3, with reverse wingers and full backs providing width, is one of the basic principles of their playing style. In fact, we also used the wings to initiate attacking plays a lot during last season. And we really struggled from the fact that our opponents chose to defend in a very narrow shape simply because they expected no threats from our FBs' contribution in the final third.

Is Coleman the man for the job? Probably not but that doesn't mean we're not looking into the possibility of signing a different kind of RB, especially if we manage to improve our midfield options.

Im glad you bought the midfield up because the midfield is the reason i am talking about our fullbacks.

Alot of our fans might think that our 352 approach is gone but aslong as we play the dutch 433, the 352 will remain a defensive formation we revert to when we have to defend. The question is where do the fullbacks play? Do they play on the sides of the pitch or centrally?

The answer for me is when van gaal said we needed a box to box midfielder next to herrera who is probably the attacking version of the player van gaal wants. There job is to be central and carry the ball forward centrally to then be in a position to have 3 potential attackers (rw, lw, cf) to pass to.

If our midfield is central we have to assume that most of the back line is central and our fullbacks are constantly switching between width & centrality.

Thaf is why valencia has been good enough this season atleast not to be distraught over being replaced by another attacking minded fullback who purely focuses on width.

Let's not forget that valencia has occasionally played in RDM for club & country and this is important because this position allows the balance between wide fullback and central ability. Likewise blind has the ability to play at LB aswell as LDM.

Thats why i have an assumption that Mcnair is highly regarded by van gaal because judging by his positional career he has played as a defensive midfielder, a right sided Cb and now a RB

 

[acnumber9]

He wouldnt need to. He'd just need to not wander off leaving a 3 man defence for half the game

Its a very basic thing to ask

Then I'm not sure Coleman is the man for the job.

 

[Member 5225]

Then I'm not sure Coleman is the man for the job.

agreed with the poster that said he'd be a 'marginal' upgrade to Valencia.

ps. why isn't Valencia on the transfer list btw, or will we freeze him out and wait till he is in the final year of his contract to try and obtain a cheeky £1.2m for him?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

@Santiago_KinderBueno

Agree with your analysis, i'm just thinking that a midfield of, let's say, Carrick-Schweinsteiger-Herrera, can potentially lead LvG in the decision to alter his plans a little bit. Especially if our starting LB next season is going to be Shaw, who is good at defending in 1v1 situations and can operate as third CB when the situation demands of him to do so. If we also assume that LvG is going to stick with tactics that include a holding midfielder (in a three man midfield), we have the numbers and the quality for a quick and well organized defensive transition.

If that's the case, i believe we can "afford" a more "gifted" full back in the final third. By saying that, i certainly don't mean a FB who will always stay wide and hug the touchline when he goes forward. But we could use an Alves type of player who can play an important role in the build up process, do underlaps as well as overlaps and has excellent short passing abilities. But i may be wrong and you're right about McNair and LvG's plans for his future role in the first team.

If that's not the case and we continue as we are, i don't see how anyone could argue with your analysis of how the FBs were interchanging during our games between central and wide positions. I also mentioned it in my previous post that this is why LvG trusted Valencia all season. It's actually amazing that if you check the per 90min. stats, Valencia is always among the three players with the most touches on the ball.

Furthermore, that's one the reasons why i still believe that, if we don't sign a new FB, we'll be seeing more of Blind at the LB position.

 

[Smores]

The drawn out analysis above is all well and good but Valencia has played the exact same way under Fergie and Moyes, his limited role isn't a complex aspect of the LvG philosophy its a product of his limited ability.

What we do need is another question to be debated but the answer certainly isn't Antonio Valencia

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

@Santiago_KinderBueno

Agree with your analysis, i'm just thinking that a midfield of, let's say, Carrick-Schweinsteiger-Herrera, can potentially lead LvG in the decision to alter his plans a little bit. Especially if our starting LB next season is going to be Shaw, who is good at defending in 1v1 situations and can operate as third CB when the situation demands of him to do so. If we also assume that LvG is going to stick with tactics that include a holding midfielder (in a three man midfield), we have the numbers and the quality for a quick and well organized defensive transition.

If that's the case, i believe we can "afford" a more "gifted" full back in the final third. By saying that, i certainly don't mean a FB who will always stay wide and hug the touchline when he goes forward. But we could use an Alves type of player who can play an important role in the build up process, do underlaps as well as overlaps and has excellent short passing abilities. But i may be wrong and you're right about McNair and LvG's plans for his future role in the first team.

If that's not the case and we continue as we are, i don't see how anyone could argue with your analysis of how the FBs were interchanging during our games between central and wide positions. I also mentioned it in my previous post that this is why LvG trusted Valencia all season. It's actually amazing that if you check the per 90min. stats, Valencia is always among the three players with the most touches on the ball.

Furthermore, that's one the reasons why i still believe that, if we don't sign a new FB, we'll be seeing more of Blind at the LB position.

The only way I can explain the inter-relations between our defenders and midfield is unfortunately to show formation graphs of relative positions taken up.

I will start with the 352- the defensive formation of the 433.



In this formation, our fullbacks protect our wider defensive midfield areas in turn allowing our central defensive midfielder (carrick/Schneirdlin) to guard the defence. Having the DM move around the width of the pitch keeps our CB's unprotected. However, if our fullbacks are the one's who protect the wide areas up to the midfield line then that allows us to be stronger centrally because our CDM will be free to man mark any central threat.

Then the 433- the attacking formation does not need our DM to be a defender so we expand, both by width and length.



That is why width is still important but not at the mercy of the ability to play centrally. Our defenders are there to not only protect our goal but to provide balls to the midfield. A defender who is constantly out on the wide can only pass the ball to one or two midfielders while a centrally adept full back will have much more freedom to initiate the right pass to the most available midfielder.

We start off Narrow and then widen during attack, it's almost a way of making space in the opposition team by our own manipulation.

Some of our fans may have a heart attack at the thought but it wouldn't suprise me if van gaal started mcnair at RB during pre-season to see how well he has progressed. Likewise shaw has pleanty of ability to stamp that LB spot as his own but neither are ready yet.

 

[darioterios]

@Santiago_KinderBueno after a time out, I actually think that when Shaw came back to the team at Stamford Bridge, he did show some encouraging progress towards the direction of being a wide defender who can contribute centrally. Did you see the same?

 

[acnumber9]

agreed with the poster that said he'd be a 'marginal' upgrade to Valencia.

ps. why isn't Valencia on the transfer list btw, or will we freeze him out and wait till he is in the final year of his contract to try and obtain a cheeky £1.2m for him?

Why would he be? He's a useful player and managers trust him.

 

[acnumber9]

The drawn out analysis above is all well and good but Valencia has played the exact same way under Fergie and Moyes, his limited role isn't a complex aspect of the LvG philosophy its a product of his limited ability.

What we do need is another question to be debated but the answer certainly isn't Antonio Valencia

And yet they all played him every week. He's obviously doing something they like.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

@Santiago_KinderBueno after a time out, I actually think that when Shaw came back to the team at Stamford Bridge, he did show some encouraging progress towards the direction of being a wide defender who can contribute centrally. Did you see the same?

I always remember that match because of the vast majority on here that enjoyed that performance by him. If you look back at Van Gaal he didnt look all that pleased and it drew to me to be a potential problem that might arise in the future. We all like Rafael, Evra, Neville because they play with alot of heart, but the full back position is going to more vital for us; so that we dont necessarily bombard the wings and whip crosses in. It is a waste of possesion especially if we don't play with a striker like RVN or even Benteke.

If I had watched that match and pretended SAF was manager; I would be over the moon. However with Van gaal; I felt it was another performance which merely added to his potential rather than solidifying him as ready. He was central for brief parts (again because he is under instruction) but gave away needless balls and his running actually altered our team shape; which makes it that much harder to get the ball to vital positions.

The thing with Shaw is as @TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said; he is actually capable territory wise to play narrow guard the central defense as well as be a wider fullback. I mean his height alone surprised me. To me his biggest problem is his natural ability to position himself and dribble with his head up. A player who runs with his head down will go in to the wider more empty spaces; while a player who dribbles with his head up will dribble towards the opposition and push the opposition bacl.

When you get a chance have a look at how Mcnair & Blind Dribble; not guts to the wall but heads up and calm. This allows them to always keep possession and ultimately pass to the most appropriate player.

That is why Valencia has had a better time fitting in this year; because he also dribbles face up, slower and calmly. He is not the best at any means but it's hard to find players built to an almost new innovation.

Shaw will no doubt get there.

 

[Member 5225]

Why would he be? He's a useful player and managers trust him.

err

5.7 Average rating


for a start...

 

[darioterios]

@Santiago_KinderBueno I say "progress towards the direction". so of course there was little consistency there yet. However, there were phases he showed the flashes there, and if I remember rightly the two times he was the most dangerous, he sent two passes on the ground, not whipping the crosses in, and the position was not from out wide but somewhere closer to the central areas?

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

@Santiago_KinderBueno I say "progress towards the direction". so of course there was little consistency there yet. However, there were phases he showed the flashes there, and if I remember rightly the two times he was the most dangerous, he sent two passes on the ground, not whipping the crosses in, and the position was not from out wide but somewhere closer to the central areas?

I am a bit biased about that match because alot of people talked about him taking players on. To me that is his natural game that he has to blend with his thus far his unnatural game. Passing on the floor and dribbling forward instead of wide is something he has to perfect but if he did so on that match then I have to agree with you that it is an improvement. The easiest way I see his positioning is to view him as a LDM rather than a LB. There is a reason blind is currently better than him but shaw under guidance from both blind & van gaal could be legendary.

 

[acnumber9]

err

5.7 Average rating


for a start...

I forgot that the opinions of people on the internet who aren't famed for their objectivity was the best way to determine whether a player should be transferred. If only we had a system for rating opposition players to save the club scouting expenses.