[Raees]

Looked tired yesterday. We definitely need Aurier IMO. Relying on Valencia all season is unfair on him and a big tactical risk.

 

[Brightonian]

Did he look tired? I agree we need to get him some back-up asap, especially if as rumoured he's icing a knee after every game. But I've not seen any signs of fatigue yet, he seemed to be bombing around as much as ever. And we have only played two games, so I'd be surprised if he was tired.

 

[Blind]

Don't think it was tiredness, he just looked timid and it meant our right side was empty far too often with Mata drifting inside.

 

[Dante]

I was his biggest fan when the Caf turned on him a few years ago. But at this point in time, I think I'd prefer more of a playmaker at fullback. Our wings are devoid of creativity. Someone like Evra would be perfect.

 

[Minimalist]

I don't mind Valencia doing what he does. Just wish some posters on here could make up their minds what they want from their full backs. He offers very little going forward and that's okay (not great but acceptable). He's a machine and just like a machine, awfully predictable. He's not very hard to defend against. His link up play is pretty rudimentary to say the least.

Go and look at any other players performance threads, Blind, Darmian, Shaw when he returns and see the hypocrisy.

Who is the competition for him anyway?

 

[LeftyBlaster]

His passing is limited? In order to make a pass you need to have teammates open, something he didn't have very often. Your just a complainer, guy did a great job covering for both him and Mata, and yet here you are complaining how he should be still bombing upfront completely ignoring the fact he was virtually alone up against 2 very pacey and dangerous players in Olsson and Routledge.

I'm not being a complainer. Just trying to have an actual debate here. You need to calm down. Routledge didn't come on till the second half, and as many here pointed out his defensive side wasn't as stellar as you're claiming; a few dangerous crosses were allowed in from his position.

And by limited passing, many times Pogba or a midfielder would be available on his left side and any player with a left foot would have easily turned their body and played a left footed short pass into them. Instead, Valencia almost always decides to go back. Never mind that he doesn't bomb forward much anymore, he doesn't contribute to our passing game in any sense at all. Blind, for all his idiotic hoofing of the ball today, is actually capable of working the ball up the field using short passes despite his lack of pace precisely because he has two feet.

 

[Brwned]

I'm not being a complainer. Just trying to have an actual debate here. You need to calm down. Routledge didn't come on till the second half, and as many here pointed out his defensive side wasn't as stellar as you're claiming; a few dangerous crosses were allowed in from his position.

And by limited passing, many times Pogba or a midfielder would be available on his left side and any player with a left foot would have easily turned their body and played a left footed short pass into them. Instead, Valencia almost always decides to go back. Never mind that he doesn't bomb forward much anymore, he doesn't contribute to our passing game in any sense at all. Blind, for all his idiotic hoofing of the ball today, is actually capable of working the ball up the field using short passes despite his lack of pace precisely because he has two feet.

The idea that he doesn't play forward or incisive passes is mostly driven by the fact he's one-footed and gets on the ball as much as anyone (101 touches yesterday, 2nd only to Matic, and he was 2nd to Matic against Madrid too). It's the same kind of thing that people said about Carrick years ago, or Matic for Chelsea (and inevitably for us in the future).

It's more of an instinctive, emotional thing than one supported by the evidence. He plays the ball forward a lot and when he passes it backwards, it's because he's isolated on the wing, there's a lack of good options and generally it is in the interest of the team to take the conservative approach. The same was generally true of Carrick.

The main difference in Valencia's case is there is often an attacking benefit to passing the ball back too. He opened up the space with a one-two and a burst forward for Pogba to play in the cross which led to the corner for the first goal. It might seem boring and annoying but it was effective.

That doesn't mean that the criticisms are unfair - Carrick and Valencia was/are overly conservative at times, and Valencia is limited by his one-footedness in the same way Carrick was limited by his footwork - but they are grossly exaggerated simply because it's annoying. We severely overweight annoying limitations, underweight sensible conservatism and overlook the subtler qualities like tactical intelligence and subtler touches like Valencia's many simple forward passes.

The evidence of that is in how their managers viewed them.

"His ability to get to the dead ball line is a big advantage to us and his football brain was there for all to see when he made Javier Hernandez's second goal against Marseille. His pass to Ryan Giggs was fantastic.

"Antonio has a great tactical brain," United's manager says. "The boy's got everything – balance, power, speed – and he's strong as an ox."

"I don't think it is a reward, I don't see it in this perspective," Mourinho told MUTV. "I just think he is the best right-back you can have. There is no better right-back in football. It is just for us to keep the best. It is a privilege for us to have such a good player and such a good man."

Whereas Valencia is repeatedly berated by fans for being brainless, his manager has repeatedly praised him for his intelligence, and Mourinho was unequivocal in his praise.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

The idea that he doesn't play forward or incisive passes is mostly driven by the fact he's one-footed and gets on the ball as much as anyone (101 touches yesterday, 2nd only to Matic, and he was 2nd to Matic against Madrid too). It's the same kind of thing that people said about Carrick years ago, or Matic for Chelsea (and inevitably for us in the future).

It's more of an instinctive, emotional thing than one supported by the evidence. He plays the ball forward a lot and when he passes it backwards, it's because he's isolated on the wing, there's a lack of good options and generally it is in the interest of the team to take the conservative approach. The same was generally true of Carrick.

The main difference in Valencia's case is there is often an attacking benefit to passing the ball back too. He opened up the space with a one-two and a burst forward for Pogba to play in the cross which led to the corner for the first goal. It might seem boring and annoying but it was effective.

That doesn't mean that the criticisms are unfair - Carrick and Valencia was/are overly conservative at times, and Valencia is limited by his one-footedness in the same way Carrick was limited by his footwork - but they are grossly exaggerated simply because it's annoying. We severely overweight annoying limitations, underweight sensible conservatism and overlook the subtler qualities like tactical intelligence and subtler touches like Valencia's many simple forward passes.

The evidence of that is in how their managers viewed them.

Whereas Valencia is repeatedly berated by fans for being brainless, his manager has repeatedly praised him for his intelligence, and Mourinho was unequivocal in his praise.

Fair point and I concede that some of my criticism comes from my frustration with his over-conservative play. I will, however, debate that he's constantly isolated on the wing. He's not. He often has a midfielder in-field of him and Mata around him but always chooses the pass back. Even Jose has acknowledged that he has been way too negative in his passing so my criticism isn't unwarranted.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

I'm glad to read comments from other supporters who appear to be realizing the limitations of Antonio Valencia.

Fair enough, he was alright performing his defensive duties yesterday and that has to be the first priority for a defender. However, when we experience so much possession and our back line is near the half-way line, I become infuriated when Valencia jogs forward with the ball, only to pass it back. It is just ridiculous! Yes, keeping possession is a key factor to our play, but just be brave and run at the opposition or put in a cross. There were many complaints last season that Zlatan was responsible for slowing down our play - I'm afraid Valencia is more at fault than anyone.

Antonio Valencia has no imagination.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

I'm glad to read comments from other supporters who appear to be realizing the limitations of Antonio Valencia.

Fair enough, he was alright performing his defensive duties yesterday and that has to be the first priority for a defender. However, when we experience so much possession and our back line is near the half-way line, I become infuriated when Valencia jogs forward with the ball, only to pass it back. It is just ridiculous! Yes, keeping possession is a key factor to our play, but just be brave and run at the opposition or put in a cross. There were many complaints last season that Zlatan was responsible for slowing down our play - I'm afraid Valencia is more at fault than anyone.

Antonio Valencia has no imagination.

I agree with you that he is far too limited going forward. People are making a fair point that he has possibly been instructed to remain conservative in the face of pacey opposition. But the fact remains that whenever he does get the chance to contribute to offensive play, it's truly frustrating how he always goes backward or forces us infield which then causes further congestion. How old is he now? 30/31? We need fresh blood at RB pretty soon.

 

[Brwned]

Fair point and I concede that some of my criticism comes from my frustration with his over-conservative play. I will, however, debate that he's constantly isolated on the wing. He's not. He often has a midfielder in-field of him and Mata around him but always chooses the pass back. Even Jose has acknowledged that he has been way too negative in his passing so my criticism isn't unwarranted.

I'm glad to read comments from other supporters who appear to be realizing the limitations of Antonio Valencia.

Fair enough, he was alright performing his defensive duties yesterday and that has to be the first priority for a defender. However, when we experience so much possession and our back line is near the half-way line, I become infuriated when Valencia jogs forward with the ball, only to pass it back. It is just ridiculous! Yes, keeping possession is a key factor to our play, but just be brave and run at the opposition or put in a cross. There were many complaints last season that Zlatan was responsible for slowing down our play - I'm afraid Valencia is more at fault than anyone.

Antonio Valencia has no imagination.

I find it a strange time to voice these criticisms when he was one of our primary attacking forces in pre-season, including against the best team in the world, and he was widely acknowledged to be one of our best players last season. Defensively he reads the game quite poorly so I'm not sure how he'd get in the team if he played as you're describing.

 

[MadMike]

I agree with you that he is far too limited going forward. People are making a fair point that he has possibly been instructed to remain conservative in the face of pacey opposition. But the fact remains that whenever he does get the chance to contribute to offensive play, it's truly frustrating how he always goes backward or forces us infield which then causes further congestion. How old is he now? 30/31? We need fresh blood at RB pretty soon.

He just turned 32. He's got a couple more years for sure, he keeps in very good condition. But with Ashley Young also 32 and out of contract at the end of the year, we should get another RB next summer, preferably a younger one, to start challenging Valencia for the starting spot.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

I find it a strange time to voice these criticisms when he was one of our primary attacking forces in pre-season, including against the best team in the world, and he was widely acknowledged to be one of our best players last season. Defensively he reads the game quite poorly so I'm not sure how he'd get in the team if he played as you're describing.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I was his biggest fan when the Caf turned on him a few years ago. But at this point in time, I think I'd prefer more of a playmaker at fullback. Our wings are devoid of creativity. Someone like Evra would be perfect.

I don't know, I think Valencia still provides something in attack but the way Swansea set up we certainly didn't see anything from him.

A very attack minded LB like you say would make a world of difference as you need threats down each side. This is why I think City will win the league this year and it's an issue we failed to address.

 

[TehRed]

I would have liked us to have kept Fosu-Mensah at the club to give him some games at right-back and allow Valencia to rest, but seeing as we didn't, I do hope we can sign someone that will compete for a starting spot with Valencia before the window closes. I don't want to see Valencia tire out playing every minute of every game, and our options to replace him at the moment aren't at the same level of quality as he is himself. We are asking him to do an awful lot in games due to us not really having a wide player who will stay wide with him, so he's running the right flank on his own for large periods.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

I find it a strange time to voice these criticisms when he was one of our primary attacking forces in pre-season, including against the best team in the world, and he was widely acknowledged to be one of our best players last season. Defensively he reads the game quite poorly so I'm not sure how he'd get in the team if he played as you're describing.

I've only been a member in this community since July, but this is a view I've held for several years.

Are you saying the opposite then, that his attacking play is actually good? I think his defending is considerably better than his offensive play, but still leaves a lot to be desired. I have no idea how he has so many plaudits from fans and in the media. All I hear is that he is "Mr Consistent". Consistent at what? Passing back?

Valencia will continue to 'do a job' this season, but a replacement for him next summer should be a priority. Left-back/left-wing are more important positions to fill right now.

 

[Brwned]

I've only been a member in this community since July, but this is a view I've held for several years.

Are you saying the opposite then, that his attacking play is actually good? I think his defending is considerably better than his offensive play, but still leaves a lot to be desired. I have no idea how he has so many plaudits from fans and in the media. All I hear is that he is "Mr Consistent". Consistent at what? Passing back?

Valencia will continue to 'do a job' this season, but a replacement for him next summer should be a priority. Left-back/left-wing are more important positions to fill right now.

Why do you think he earns so many plaudits from his managers too?

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Why do you think he earns so many plaudits from his managers too?

I'm baffled. I can only assume it is because his back-passes keep possession and probably his high fitness level.

It's not like he is producing vital tackles or assists each week.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I'm baffled. I can only assume it is because his back-passes keep possession and probably his high fitness level.

It's not like he is producing vital tackles or assists each week.

Its because you're wrong.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Its because you're wrong.

Why though? We're all entitled to our opinions. What does Valencia offer in your view?

 

[ash_86]

Tony V has been a great servant of the club for several years now, but i feel he contributes to very little in attack. Comparing our fullbacks to top 6 , we're quite behind in terms of quality of service that they could deliver. Imagine how many goals Lukaku would score with good delivery. In modrern game, attacking FB's are a must.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Why though? We're all entitled to our opinions. What does Valencia offer in your view?

Of course we are, but you've got to ask yourself if the manager called him the best right back in the world (overstatement IMO), he won players player of the year, most pundits laud him and most United fans appreciate his contribution, what are you missing?

He contributed as much or more than any fullback in the league. He was consistently a threat down the right, put in loads of decent crosses. First choice right back on the best defence in the league. That tackle on Firminho was tackle of the season.

Out of interest who were your top 3 players for us last season?

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Of course we are, but you've got to ask yourself if the manager called him the best right back in the world (overstatement IMO), he won players player of the year, most pundits laud him and most United fans appreciate his contribution, what are you missing?

He contributed as much or more than any fullback in the league. He was consistently a threat down the right, put in loads of decent crosses. First choice right back on the best defence in the league. That tackle on Firminho was tackle of the season.

Out of interest who were your top 3 players for us last season?

This is what I have the biggest problem with. I'm not saying you're making it up or anything, but I just don't remember this consistent threat or the load of crosses. When Valencia does actually produce a cross, it's more of a hit and hope, too powerful and unexpected for our targets to get anywhere near. He will produce some successful attacking play every now and then (pre-season last year he was actually excellent), but I find it a rarity in competitive games.

I don't think an individual really stood out from the squad last season. I think there are a number of players who were very good in parts, but also had their periods of poor form, i.e. Bailly, Herrera, Ibrahimović.

I'm more of the belief that Valencia has his plaudits because of the way he conducts himself. Clearly looks after himself, regularly plays 90 minute matches, keeps possession and appears to be a generally nice guy. Just because you've done the bare minimum and been loyal for several years, doesn't turn you into a 'world-class' player. We'll beg to differ, but Valencia just hasn't warranted this credit in recent seasons when he has been so mediocre. Maybe my expectations of a wing-back just don't align with those of other fans these days.

 

[Nobby style]

This is what I have the biggest problem with. I'm not saying you're making it up or anything, but I just don't remember this consistent threat or the load of crosses. When Valencia does actually produce a cross, it's more of a hit and hope, too powerful and unexpected for our targets to get anywhere near. He will produce some successful attacking play every now and then (pre-season last year he was actually excellent), but I find it a rarity in competitive games.

I don't think an individual really stood out from the squad last season. I think there are a number of players who were very good in parts, but also had their periods of poor form, i.e. Bailly, Herrera, Ibrahimović.

I'm more of the belief that Valencia has his plaudits because of the way he conducts himself. Clearly looks after himself, regularly plays 90 minute matches, keeps possession and appears to be a generally nice guy. Just because you've done the bare minimum and been loyal for several years, doesn't turn you into a 'world-class' player. We'll beg to differ, but Valencia just hasn't warranted this credit in recent seasons when he has been so mediocre. Maybe my expectations of a wing-back just don't align with those of other fans these days.

"Antonio Valencia's consistently solid performances at right-back for Manchester United during 2016/17 have earned him the Players' Player of the Year award."

Fooking bare minimums ain't what they used to be.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

"Antonio Valencia's consistently solid performances at right-back for Manchester United during 2016/17 have earned him the Players' Player of the Year award."

Fooking bare minimums ain't what they used to be.

So what? He won an award which was decided by the rest of the squad. Someone had to win it.

Valencia may have got the most votes because he made the best cup of tea during the season, for all we know.

We're all happy to consider Valencia such a great player, but no one can back this up with decent grounds for why.

 

[AlecHDR]

We do need a backup for him. Apparently Lindelof can play there so I guess that is our backup plan if the criminal in Paris doesn't get acquitted.

 

[Escobar]

Wouldn't there have been enough games for him and TFM? He's carrying a knock I read as well. I wonder what we will do in case he is out at one point

 

[Nobby style]

So what? He won an award which was decided by the rest of the squad. Someone had to win it.

Valencia may have got the most votes because he made the best cup of tea during the season, for all we know.

We're all happy to consider Valencia such a great player, but no one can back this up with decent grounds for why.

I´m not sure what better recognition of your excellence can be beyond your own teammates voting you best player in a quality side such as United. He was also voted among the twenty best players in the PL. Mourinho has made him captain of Manchester United, and has also claimed, "there's no better right-back in football." I believe Ander Herrera said the same.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, perhaps all that pales in front of your "bare minimum" expert analysis. You just might be a gem of underestimated footballing vision wasting your talents anonymously on a simple message board.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

I´m not sure what better recognition of your excellence can be beyond your own teammates voting you best player in a quality side such as United. He was also voted among the twenty best players in the PL. Mourinho has made him captain of Manchester United, and has also claimed, "there's no better right-back in football." I believe Ander Herrera said the same.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, perhaps all that pales in front of your "bare minimum" expert analysis. You just might be a gem of underestimated footballing vision wasting your talents anonymously on a simple message board.

A quality side we are looking right now, but also the same side which finished 6th in the league last season and suffered from a serious lack of goals. Something which a more adventurous right-back may have been able to contribute towards. The captain's armband doesn't carry the same meaning as it once did. Fellaini and Young wore it last year! He's basically vice-captain in the absence of Carrick, most likely because he is the longest serving player in the eleven.

I'm not saying my view is the right one and that our manager, players and fans are all wrong. It's just my observation that our dominance in possession could be made even more threatening if the likes of Valencia contributed more in the final third, other than just passing back for another player to use their imagination. When there isn't much defending to do in games, I expect more creativity.

At the end of the day, I'm glad we do have loyal players around who evidently love playing for United and whilst we keep scoring goals and continue keeping clean sheets, I can't complain too much.

 

[Minimalist]

For what it's worth he got a worse rating by most stats outlets than Blind on the left. Yet Blind, according to a lot of the supporters on here, is the real problem in our side.

I didn't think either played badly to be honest. I'm just baffled at the different level of criticism each gets playing the same role.

 

[Darwin09]

A few seasons ago he was switched to the No. 7 shirt on the back of an outstanding season where he won all the individual awards and was pretty much deemed the best right winger in the league, and a few whispers were heard of best RW in the world.

Then he crashed under the expectation of the No. 7 shirt. He went as far as to actually admit the shirt was too much pressure.

My hopes are that he is not succumbing to a similar pressure, that of being considered the best RB in the league by many last year and also winning so many individual plaudits. It's a different psychology when you are expected to perform at a certain level every time and a decent performance is no longer acceptable.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

I don't know, I think Valencia still provides something in attack but the way Swansea set up we certainly didn't see anything from him.

A very attack minded LB like you say would make a world of difference as you need threats down each side. This is why I think City will win the league this year and it's an issue we failed to address.

I might be extremely harsh but I don't think the way Swansea set up has anything to do with it. Decent - good crosses, or good offensive plays from him are not the norm, that much should be obvious to people. His first instinct when in an attacking position is to cut back or pass back. Even when he played that one-two with Pogba and managed to get down the byline he stopped and passed back. Jose himself has acknowledged that Valencia's been too negative. Teams aren't going to give him acres of space for him to get comfortable before putting in a cross.

 

[Womp]

He's good but the difference between him and the World's best RB's is timing and positioning. There was so many times we were trying to break Swansea down and all our players were in the middle of the pitch (because we have no width), leaving huge space on the wings which he needed to attack, whilst he was too late to rotate up. He'd get up eventually but by then it'd be closed off by Swansea.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

So what? He won an award which was decided by the rest of the squad. Someone had to win it.

Valencia may have got the most votes because he made the best cup of tea during the season, for all we know.

We're all happy to consider Valencia such a great player, but no one can back this up with decent grounds for why.

You've been told why he's considered a great player and you're refusing to accept the reasons why.

I might be extremely harsh but I don't think the way Swansea set up has anything to do with it. Decent - good crosses, or good offensive plays from him are not the norm, that much should be obvious to people. His first instinct when in an attacking position is to cut back or pass back. Even when he played that one-two with Pogba and managed to get down the byline he stopped and passed back. Jose himself has acknowledged that Valencia's been too negative. Teams aren't going to give him acres of space for him to get comfortable before putting in a cross.

Fair enough, just call it an average/bad game from him if you like. Either way, it's 2 games into the new season, he was players player of the year last year and we're now saying he's not good enough after 2 games?

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I think he's been pretty good (most know my stance and I am not a big fan of his), the run-timing issue is not really new though is it? A couple of times Big Dave bollocked him for switching off as well and letting his man get free and cross into the box, I wonder on how much leash Mourinho has him. His final ball is still three in four absolutely dreadful. Frustrating stuff but the least of our worries really, if I was an emerging player fighting for that RB spot I would be absolutely salivating because I think it could be taken from Valencia.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Fair enough, just call it an average/bad game from him if you like. Either way, it's 2 games into the new season, he was players player of the year last year and we're now saying he's not good enough after 2 games?

I've been saying for 2 seasons now actually that I consider him slightly him slightly overrated here. I think his offensive contribution is close to nothing, and we need someone with two feet. Any crosses he puts in nowadays are more spray and pray rather than aimed or whipped with intent.

 

[Rossa]

I find it a strange time to voice these criticisms when he was one of our primary attacking forces in pre-season, including against the best team in the world, and he was widely acknowledged to be one of our best players last season. Defensively he reads the game quite poorly so I'm not sure how he'd get in the team if he played as you're describing.

You've made some excellent posts, but you might as well give up. When a player turns 30, there's a brigade on here telling you how his legs have gone, he has lost pace, and now I've even read that he is a limited passer. His pass to Lingard last season over the top for which Lingard made a lovely cross that Ibra scored from should tell you that he has some in his locker. For his national team he plays more centrally, which is odd if he is such a limited passer.

Valencia is great at bringing the ball out from the back, and he was the best fullback in the league last season at it. However, now he is suddenly very average at it? It makes no sense. He is a fairly simple player, but what he does well, he does very well. His first touch is in a class of it's own. There's a wankfest over in Blind's thread over the same guys who say Valencia is limited, yet Valencia hardly ever miscontrols a ball, unlike said Blind. His short passing is also extremely good and almost always find space in tight situations. He is often third last or fourth last on goals, but that is often overlooked as it's not part of stats.

 

[Rossa]

He's good but the difference between him and the World's best RB's is timing and positioning. There was so many times we were trying to break Swansea down and all our players were in the middle of the pitch (because we have no width), leaving huge space on the wings which he needed to attack, whilst he was too late to rotate up. He'd get up eventually but by then it'd be closed off by Swansea.

You don't think that was tactics? He kept that right side wide on his own last season by bombing up and down. Him eventually getting into positions may have something to do with Matic being new and us holding a very high line in the first place, with them having a few pacy attackers.

 

[Z_Wolf]

He's a solid RB. Defensively sound, got good engine on him and his work-rate is 2nd to non but his offensive contributions leave a lot to be desired. He's quick but he slows down our attacks more often than not. He has a tendency to pause after receiving passes rather than attack the space before oppo players get back into position. His crossing and movement in the final third are not good.


Valencia as our only attacking fullback is simply not good enough attacking wise. We need to get a competent attacking LB; Valencia should be the more defensive fb rather than attacking.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

It has nothing to do with age. Whether Valencia is 32 or 42, as long as he has the fitness levels that he currently has, I don't see any reason why age should matter.

My long-standing concern over Valencia, is that he constantly passes the ball backwards again and again, when the overlap or a teammate in an advanced position is available. Of course I'd rather keep possession than lose it, but we dominate games and we are just letting the opposition regroup by playing the ball back all the time. For someone with all this strength and pace about him, I'd expect Valencia to at least have a go at taking on the opposition. I wouldn't be surprised if LvG's philosophy is still programmed into his head.