[Tallis]

As a football fan community, we underestimate how important confidence is to a player. He had a good start at Utd. Then the media got on his back for showboating etc and he lacked some tangible end product.

Second season he would have kicked on but had the episode with his ex GF. Missed some games and came under a cloud. Never recovered from that.

Same thing is happening now with Hojlund.

 

[The Hilton]

There's some serious hyperbole on both sides of the argument in this thread, although that isn't surprising.

There's a good player in Antony, as proven by his time with Betis, and with Ajax previously. The issue for us is that the level of physicality in the PL dwarfs that of the Spanish & Dutch leagues, and that's a big reason he was so ineffective with us - he was up against players who were stronger and faster, and so struggled to make space or beat them. He has the game of a top pacy winger, only without the pace to tie it all together, at least in the PL.

Great to see him enjoying himself and doing well though, he always worked hard for the team and never stopped trying. With a bit of luck his form will attract some decent bids too.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Valencia's first season with us was 09/10.

He got 7 goals and 13 assists.

And was faster, stronger, a better passer.

Also genuinely tough, rather than teenage boy petulant like Antony.

And Antony had 8 goals, with 3 assists.
I’m gonna hazard a guess Tony had much better teammates though right?
Remind me who he was supplying again that season? Weghorst or Rooney, Berbatov & Own?


And getting worse season on season probably isn’t what you want from anyone.

 

[Marwood]

And Antony had 8 goals, with 3 assists.
I’m gonna hazard a guess Tony had much better teammates though right?
Remind me who he was supplying again that season? Weghorst or Rooney, Berbatov & Own?


And getting worse season on season probably isn’t what you want from anyone.

He did have better team mates yes. He also had to play in the Champions League rather than the Europa or Conference league. And if you want to debate that Antony was just as good but let down by the strikers go at it. I disagree but somebody will have that debate I'm sure.

But if you're doing a comparison between outputs and drawing a conclusion you have to get the stats somewhere close to right. You've picked Valencia's fourth season where his output dropped and made that out to be his debut and said nobody cared about said output. Not sure why you'd do that.

His actual first season Valencia 7 goals and 13 assists.

Broke his leg second season.

Third season 6 goals and 15 assists. Matt Busby player of the year. Players player of the year. Goal of the season.

Valencia got more assists in his first season than Antony has in the last three combined.

As a start to a United career how is this in anyway comparable to Antony? If Antony had anything like that impact on a team he wouldn't be on loan would he.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But if you're doing a comparison between outputs and drawing a conclusion you have to get the stats somewhere close to right. You've picked Valencia's fourth season where his output dropped and made that out to be his debut and

Now you’re just debating in bad faith, I didn’t do that at all. I said clearly which season I was talking about, a season in which we won the league with a very unproductive winger.

And nobody did care.

If you’re only interested in the output of their first season, Tony got just 9 more contributions despite joining in pre season, playing 5 more games and having Rooney, Berba and Owen as his forwards rather than Weghorst.

To be fair with Tony also, not only did he have miles better teammates, especially the forwards, he did a top job for the team.
His stats, even those you quoted from his debut seasons were far from great, Garnacho this season in a shite side has already matched his best season output (and probably scored a goal of the season 2 years in a row). Tonnes of our fans would flog Garna too now.

The point is, fans just expect so much more now, and certainly from big buys and going back to what started this debate off, no, Antony was not “woeful” in his debut season, he had an ok first season, but the money paid was always going to distort that.

 

[Quagmaguire]

As a football fan community, we underestimate how important confidence is to a player. He had a good start at Utd. Then the media got on his back for showboating etc and he lacked some tangible end product.

Second season he would have kicked on but had the episode with his ex GF. Missed some games and came under a cloud. Never recovered from that.

Same thing is happening now with Hojlund.

100% agree but this is not because of the media, its because of the United’s fan base.

Our fan base likes to shoot its own players foot whilst they are already on the low because they believe that they have this right to always deserve better than a player on poor form. That its usually this player that is keeping our club from reaching the tops again.

United is a dead zone and personally we deserve what we get because the element of support is non existent.

Whilst obviously ticket fee's are important - a single fan & his season ticket is worth much less to United than a single player of value either playing on our own pitch or as assets to sell to someone else.

Ultimately i believe the players are more important to United than the fanbase.

The players don't sit there on the middle of the pitch shouting and celebrating everytime the fans score a goal - its the fans who are watching shouting and celebrating everytime a the player scores a goal.

And our fans know how to shout at its own players in a very negative way usually to the players that needs it the most.

 

[Marwood]

Now you’re just debating in bad faith, I didn’t do that at all. I said clearly which season I was talking about, a season in which we won the league with a very unproductive winger.

And nobody did care.

If you’re only interested in the output of their first season, Tony got just 9 more contributions despite joining in pre season, playing 5 more games and having Rooney, Berba and Owen as his forwards rather than Weghorst.

To be fair with Tony also, not only did he have miles better teammates, especially the forwards, he did a top job for the team.
His stats, even those you quoted from his debut seasons were far from great, Garnacho this season in a shite side has already matched his best season output (and probably scored a goal of the season 2 years in a row). Tonnes of our fans would flog Garna too now.

The point is, fans just expect so much more now, and certainly from big buys and going back to what started this debate off, no, Antony was not “woeful” in his debut season, he had an ok first season, but the money paid was always going to distort that.

Apologies. It wasn't bad faith, I didn't read back far enough in your exchange with the other poster. From where I started reading it looked like the 12/13 was being used as a debut season.

But there's also credit in the bank for a player. Valencia had already put in two good or very good seasons for us. Named player of the season. Then his output suddenly dropped.

Antony has had that issue right from the start. He's never looked creative, never looked like a player who is going to rack up the assists.

And that's just output. Never mind the eye test where it's clear one is better than the other.

They're just not comparable.

 

[bgoodall]

After watching him turn things around I wonder if the PL is just a stronger league than LaLiga. Seems a lot easier for him there.

 

[RuudTom83]

The social media attention at United just makes everything extremely difficult.

Antony has 4 goals and 2 assists in 13 La Liga games.
Rashford has 2 goals and 3 assists in 11 Premier League games.

Which is an okay return, but it won't be anywhere near enough for Betis and Villa to want to pay them the salaries they both expect to be paid.

Yet the coverage and perception in the media is that the pair of them are now performing at top elite levels and proving United were the issue all along.

When I'd argue they are just enjoying an easier life outside the attention of United.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

The social media attention at United just makes everything extremely difficult.

Antony has 4 goals and 2 assists in 13 La Liga games.
Rashford has 2 goals and 3 assists in 11 Premier League games.

Which is an okay return, but it won't be anywhere near enough for Betis and Villa to want to pay them the salaries they both expect to be paid.

Yet the coverage and perception in the media is that the pair of them are now performing at top elite levels and proving United were the issue all along.

When I'd argue they are just enjoying an easier life outside the attention of United.

Can't speak to Rashford as I haven't seen anymore than highlights but having watched most of Betis games (As they rarely clash with ours), Antony has been one of their top players and creators. Whoscored which looks to rate their overall performance has him at 7.31 in La Liga whereas his average for us was around 6.3, he is their highest rated player with more than 1 appearance on Whoscored (Which isn't the sole way to estimate a player but it's unbias at least).

He regularly wins the ball back, works hard and makes the right passes and his goals quite often make the difference for Betis, very few are the 2nd or 3rd are in a 3 nil win for example, take a look at his FBREF profile since he left us, nearly every metric has gone up, I've no doubt if he came back to us he would be the same player but evidence suggests he is much more suited to the Spanish game.

 

[always_hoping]

Fair play to him played a big part in Real Betis reaching the conference league final hopefully he and his club can beat Chelsea now.

 

[Ted Lasso]

That was a very good free kick

 

[Oranges038]

Right footed volley last week. Peach of a free kick and a right footed assist this week.

Couple of those in the final would be beautiful.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Him v Sancho in the final. Know who I would rather win!

 

[Poborsky's hair]

He can celebrate both European league titles and two promotions to champions league too. Any realistic that Betis could afford him. fi they get promoted to Champions league?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Their owner was being a bit of an annoying beg about him the other day. We should recall him.

 

[TallReed]

He's a weird one.

A talented player with a solid left peg, one dimensional without the athleticism to make that work regardless of the opposition. Has a relatively petulant streak, which I think just comes from a place of really hating to lose, so I find it plus at times, so long as it isn't getting him booked/sent off. For that reason alone and his willingness to press I find it hard to dislike the fella, even when underperforming.

Crossing my fingers he can deny Chelsea a Conference League win and become a bit of a cult hero for Betis. Feel like he is going to revel in that game against PL opposition and a good performance and win would definitely endear him to us, even if it isn't a direct win for United! As well as giving us a an insight into is it 'just the premier league is to tough; is it a system' issue etc'.

At the very least his positive run of form going into a European Final may well secure him a move away from United with a decent fee, great news for the player as he looks a lot happier plying his trade in La Liga and great news for the club if he can't cut the mustard in the PL.