Antony: why the concern - use the player performance thread

[Jippy]

Officially the club paid €95M, which was at the time £81.2M, that is what Ajax announced here, with €5M add-ons.

But it's just simply 100M in the caf so let's just run with it, 95M is just boring fee

I'm surprised some people don't start quoting the figure in Zimbabwe dollars to make him seem worse.
If he triggers the add-ons then presumably it means we're winning major trophies and he's banging in the goals.

 

[Jippy]

ESPN, SkySports, Forbes, and Romano have reported the price to be around £85M or €100M, which includes the addons. Without addons reported fee is €95M.

Romano

SkySports

Forbes

ESPN

Transfermarkt

The Athletic

Eurosport

The Guardian

€100M euro is also the fee quoted in Wikipedia's page of Dutch football transfer records

We don't know what the conditions on the addons are, but quoting the fee at €100M is absolutely correct.

Cheers. Have you noticed how the euro sign always falls off the quoted valuation though, given this is a British club we're talking about that operates in pounds.

 

[Red in STL]

23 year old player is developed in terms of technique and physicality. Do you expect him to become faster and learn to use his right foot with age?

Well Luke Shaw has at the age of 27, didn't you see that cracking goal he scored the other week, prior to that everyone though his right foot had the same capabilities as Antony's

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

The notion that we are buying a player for what we think he will become, rather than what he is now, is sadly lost on this generation of instant impact obsessives

I hope Garnacho is enjoying this period he has before everyone also decides he is sh*t

But if you buy a player for what he can become, then he needs to already have provided some indication that he could become that player in his previous performances. Antony never has- many Dutch football supporters were surprised at the move and astonished at the fee.

Sancho would be an example of a player who has shown that potential and whose signing has been criticised by the fanbase unfairly (given that every United fan was desperate to sign him at the time). Antony's signing was a weird one because he had never delivered world class performances when we signed him but also never gave the impression that he would ever be capable of delivering them.

Mentioning Garnacho is a bit ironic given that his emergence has only highlighted Antony's deficiencies. If Antony had put in the performances Garnacho has this season, he wouldn't be criticised and this thread would be unnecessary.

 

[Cutch]

It was a tad bizarre that the criticism really ramped up after the arsenal game where the general consensus at half time was that he was our best player and it was his best performance to date. I think being outpaced so badly by Partey and ending up subbed was what most people took from that game. He was decent against Forest too. I've been most encouraged by the last 2 games than anything I've seen before so that can be only a good thing if he's gettin better and more direct as he settles

 

[The Dane]

If Liverpool called tomorrow and asked if we were ready to make an even swap, Antony for Nunez, how many of you would accept that ? I would and that is not because I rate Nunez very high, but I just cannot see the potential in Antony given his price.

 

[Crimson King]

If Liverpool called tomorrow and asked if we were ready to make an even swap, Antony for Nunez, how many of you would accept that ? I would and that is not because I rate Nunez very high, but I just cannot see the potential in Antony given his price.

It's way too early to be making that call on either of those players at this point.

 

[demetre]

If Liverpool called tomorrow and asked if we were ready to make an even swap, Antony for Nunez, how many of you would accept that ? I would and that is not because I rate Nunez very high, but I just cannot see the potential in Antony given his price.

I can see Nunez potential too, but I can also imagine him playing for Olympiacos in 2 years. Antony is a safer bet for me.

 

[Maticmaker]

I think most United fans are hoping that Antony quickly begins to understand that what he could accomplish in Dutch football, he won't necessarily get away with in the PL. I believe ETH feels Antony has the right attitude and can understand this and will seek to change what needs to be change, but for both their sake this has to be learned quickly.

 

[Valencia's Left Foot]

He’s become the most spoke about player in our current squad. It would be also fair to say there is a growing concern regarding how good he is. Not only on the caf but there are many pundits calling him out too.

Often, because of the price tag etc we expect a quick return for money spent. If we don’t get results (often in terms of goals, assists or whatever) we see the worst.

Noticed on another thread where a caf member was asking for 3 players one would take from any of our top 4 contenders. Noticed Saka was the player who figured most and was suggested as a replacement for Antony.

In other words it’s looking like we’ve already written him off!

My take on Antony and going on what I’ve seen, is that we have a player with a high skillset. Certainly not predictable as many others believe. He can and will start beating his man and he will start getting more goals and assists. Reckon he also has the right mentality. A bit cocky but looks to believe in himself. Charisma’s the word!

I noticed ETH’s reactions when he subbed him off against Forest. Against Forest I could see loads of positives! Also you could see a genuine positive reaction from ETH when he embraced him leaving the pitch. Also like Martinez, ETH took him on board at Ajax. We dont need to even mention what impact Martinez has had.

I believe in our manager’s judgement and the the qualities I’m seeing even if they’re not quite hitting me in the face.

Thought this deserved a thread of it’s own!

I like Antony. Not as concerned as I am with Sancho. Antony has a shown a level of fight and determination that I think will help him push him on to the next level. Sancho always seemed overwhelmed by the pressure of United's big stage.

 

[Borys]

I think most United fans are hoping that Antony quickly begins to understand that what he could accomplish in Dutch football, he won't necessarily get away with in the PL. I believe ETH feels Antony has the right attitude and can understand this and will seek to change what needs to be change, but for both their sake this has to be learned quickly.

I don't think that's fair for Antony, but it would take someone who watched him at Ajax to say he's doing worse here. I am not sure if he's doing worse in terms of metrics, his numbers weren't that impressive anyway, plus all the other tactical stuff he does really well.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

This fanbase is obsessed with transfer fees. He was facing an uphill battle from day one. I'm not concerned with him, I think he's been quite good overall plus he is only 22 and I have no doubt that he's improving. I trust ten Hag's judgement.

 

[Irwin99]

Our manger says we play better with him in the team (i also suspect he means that with Dalot as well). I agree.

Other than the take ons the only thing that annoys me is the lack of chance creation from him but i'm willing to have patience.

 

[RedDevil@84]

He is a United player. So obviously pundits are interested. They have been talking about disaster at United for almost a decade. They would love to continue that. Big priced players at other clubs can flop, but still not get much coverage.

From the fans point of view, he is a silly money player. So the expecteation is that he produces the goods, now. This is no different from Pogba or Maguire situation. For that kind of money, you expect results, not "getting there".

From my point of view, he is not playing bad. Obviously not like a 90M player, that will never happen I believe. He has his flaws, but I think he can improve. It is way too early to write him off.

 

[Skills]

I do love me a polarising debate around him though. It's one of those where the two view points are on such extreme ends, that you can pretty much ignore the wrong sides views on the sport indefinitely. Will be interesting to see this thread in a few years.

 

[Telsim]

Cheers. Have you noticed how the euro sign always falls off the quoted valuation though, given this is a British club we're talking about that operates in pounds.

True, but I imagine many users are not British, so when a purchase is announced they tend to look at the euro fee to better understand the value, and then they remember that number, instead of the pound one. There's also the fact that both £ and € are not present on computer keyboards and it's a bother to look it up on Google, copy the symbol, paste it here, and format it (sometimes it comes out like this £). So it's easier to just type 100M. You just have to work out for yourself which currency they are talking about. If a 100M is typed in the case of Antony, then it's obviously euro. I don't think there's any malice or agenda behind it. It's just easier.

 

[simplyared]

More important is his turn of pace which is very good!

 

[podurban2]

I don't think that's fair for Antony, but it would take someone who watched him at Ajax to say he's doing worse here. I am not sure if he's doing worse in terms of metrics, his numbers weren't that impressive anyway, plus all the other tactical stuff he does really well.

Depends on what you are referring to when you talk numbers. If you look at his metrics per 90 minutes in Ajax last season he had actually very good stats. Of course, the Eredevisie is not comparable to the Premier League, but his numbers last season were strong across the board.

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=HlWabXXOMgiIp9s7_FsLb

 

[wolvored]

The trouble is the price imo. Some players it lies heavy on them, that if they dont succeed straight away, they tend to do the easier things, like pass back, rather than beat the man. Simple passes instead of crosses etc. This then makes them a 30 mill player and not what they were bought for. He needs to stick to what he was doing at Ajax and if it doesnt come, then keep trying till it does.

 

[simplyared]

True, but I imagine many users are not British, so when a purchase is announced they tend to look at the euro fee to better understand the value, and then they remember that number, instead of the pound one. There's also the fact that both £ and € are not present on computer keyboards and it's a bother to look it up on Google, copy the symbol, paste it here, and format it (sometimes it comes out like this £). So it's easier to just type 100M. You just have to work out for yourself which currency they are talking about. If a 100M is typed in the case of Antony, then it's obviously euro. I don't think there's any malice or agenda behind it. It's just easier.

1 mill pounds (and thats not lbs ) = 1.14 mill euros give an take. So wtf!

 

[pogbasformerbarber]

Some of the criticism is a bit harsh, especially when writing him off completely. But I also dont understand when people say its too early to judge. 22 years old and 6 months in the league, these are irrelevant because he hasn't shown anything in his career to suggest he has a high ceiling. I remember these concerns during the summer when we were looking at his Ajax videos, they were the same clips rehashed over and over.

With Nani, you could see the crazy talent, it was just a matter of his brain clicking and improving his decision making. With Antony it's almost the complete opposite, his decision making is decent in that he's super cautious and hardly loses the ball, but he hasn't shown the talent that makes you think: well this kid might just be it one day.

Players deal with ebbs and flows...especially in football. 6 months is a small sample size IMHO. 22 is young to judge a player unless they are a generational talent like Mbappe. So I attribute much of his play as a work in progress. Both the good and the bad. He's not the finished article.

If he is what he is now...well I'm less than impressed as well...and this very well might be what he is. But, theres a difference between criticizing form and criticizing the player whole-sale. Rashford was dreadful at times last season. That can certainly be criticized. But hes clearly an extremely talented player. So looking at Antony as a "bad player" or a "bad signing" after this amount of time is mad...again IMHO. I think youre saying the same thing here so we are in agreement.

In terms of his ceiling, I think he does have a huge ceiling based on the flashes I've seen. And I would argue ETH, who seems a good judge of talent, felt he was worth the fee and has a high ceiling. So that is where we differ. Ultimately though we'll just have to see how it continues to track.

 

[VP89]

If he tries things proactively like he did vs Forrest Im sure he'll do well

 

[NLunited]

If Liverpool called tomorrow and asked if we were ready to make an even swap, Antony for Nunez, how many of you would accept that ? I would and that is not because I rate Nunez very high, but I just cannot see the potential in Antony given his price.

I would take Nunez and keep Antony. Obviously.

 

[Jeffthered]

It was a tad bizarre that the criticism really ramped up after the arsenal game where the general consensus at half time was that he was our best player and it was his best performance to date. I think being outpaced so badly by Partey and ending up subbed was what most people took from that game. He was decent against Forest too. I've been most encouraged by the last 2 games than anything I've seen before so that can be only a good thing if he's gettin better and more direct as he settles

???

 

[NLunited]

???

Indeed. He was average against Arse.

 

[Borys]

Depends on what you are referring to when you talk numbers. If you look at his metrics per 90 minutes in Ajax last season he had actually very good stats. Of course, the Eredevisie is not comparable to the Premier League, but his numbers last season were strong across the board.

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=HlWabXXOMgiIp9s7_FsLb

What do you read from those stats, which are "very good"? On fbref I see he was 16th in terms of expected assists and goals / 90' last season in the Eredivisie, which is why I said he was not impressive in terms of numbers.

He dribbles less and makes less passes than used at Ajax, but he also doesn't play for a team that won the league 3 times in a row recently.

 

[Skills]

It was a tad bizarre that the criticism really ramped up after the arsenal game where the general consensus at half time was that he was our best player and it was his best performance to date. I think being outpaced so badly by Partey and ending up subbed was what most people took from that game. He was decent against Forest too. I've been most encouraged by the last 2 games than anything I've seen before so that can be only a good thing if he's gettin better and more direct as he settles

That wasn't the general consensus at all. It was his best performance to date though - depressingly he was still the worst winger on the pitch.

 

[git_united]

It’s the money paid and its attendant effects on other priority positions. But I don’t think we’d have had as good a first half of the season without Antony in the lineup and I don’t remember any other quality available left footed inverted forwards. So, we could have held off and prioritized elsewhere or saved the money for next summer but I’m not sure any realistic alternatives would have worked as well this quickly.

 

[PSV]

It was a tad bizarre that the criticism really ramped up after the arsenal game where the general consensus at half time was that he was our best player and it was his best performance to date. I think being outpaced so badly by Partey and ending up subbed was what most people took from that game. He was decent against Forest too. I've been most encouraged by the last 2 games than anything I've seen before so that can be only a good thing if he's gettin better and more direct as he settles

General consensus, what are you having?

To anyone that missed out on his incredible performance against Arsenal, I present to you all:


It's a miracle we weren't humiliated if this was our best player.

He had a 6/10 against Forest, that's called an off day for good players.

 

[CM]

The most important consideration with Antony is we play better as a team when he is starting. Individually there are still things for him to work on but I think he'll be fine. The goals aren't so much of an issue for me but he definitely needs to get better at going on the outside and taking the man on to provide an extra dimension to his game.

 

[kundalini]

My concerns are:

1) It was a stupid use of money when we already have Sancho, Pellistri, Amad and to a lesser extent, Elanga, who are young, talented wide right players, that will hopefully improve over the next year or two. If Antony is better than the alternative options, he certainly doesn't look so much better as to merit the amount of money spent. Had it been a year 3 signing after Sancho, Pellistri and Amad had each had 20+ PL starts for United and failed to deliver, then I would have been far more comfortable with spending £80m.

2) The manager was responsible for his signing, which typically means he will get more opportunities than his performances merit. We have seen how this can go horribly wrong, with Solskjaer's insistence on selecting Maguire and Wan-Bissaka even when in terrible form.

3) Is Antony better right now than Pellistri ? I don't the know the answer; one player has been given lots of playing time, while the other has had about 30 mins. Antony seems far more likely to score but creates almost nothing. Pellistri has one assist and put in a super cross to Weghorst against Forest.

4) Antony seems predictable. I fear that PL defenders and keepers will have a good understanding of what he is likely to do. He doesn't appear to have weapons that opposition teams will know about, yet still be unable to stop, such as extreme pace, height, strength, skill etc.

 

[Desert Eagle]

People are worried because we clearly overpaid by like 30 plus million and his current skill set doesn't seem elite at anything apart from Joga Bonito skills.

I like the kid, his attitude and work rate are both good but he also has a lot of things he can improve on. First season is always a freebie when moving to a new league but next season it will be fair to want improvements in his play and efficiency.

 

[Skills]

People are worried because we clearly overpaid by like 30 plus million and his current skill set doesn't seem elite at anything apart from Joga Bonito skills.

I like the kid, his attitude and work rate are both good but he also has a lot of things he can improve on. First season is always a freebie when moving to a new league but next season it will be fair to want improvements in his play and efficiency.

If only he could use those skills when he's actually got to beat a defender.

 

[Canuckred64]

I think it's a bit early to be too concerned. It's his first season here, United and the Premier are a big step up in class. A lot of players take a season to adjust to the Premier.

There is a worry that he is predictable, always seems to move to his left and tries to get the ball on his left foot. He needs to develop his right foot and go to his right every once in awhile, so the defender isn't always anticipating his move to the left.

 

[Red in STL]

We agree that ETH is the best thing that's happened to the club in years, so maybe we should trust his judgement, he wanted Antony, he knows his capabilities and his deficiencies

He's brought us Casemiro, Martinez and Eriksen, personally I think he knows what he's doing

 

[RacingClub]

It's way too early to be making that call on either of those players at this point.

Agreed (though that doesn't stop people/ or the media from going in on them) and I feel sympathy for both as they suffer some of the same problems.

Young, new club in a new country and a collosal price tag (that neither were "Worth", at least yet) that means expectations of both are far too high.

 

[Cutch]

???

Indeed. He was average against Arse.

That wasn't the general consensus at all. It was his best performance to date though - depressingly he was still the worst winger on the pitch.

General consensus, what are you having?

To anyone that missed out on his incredible performance against Arsenal, I present to you all:


It's a miracle we weren't humiliated if this was our best player.

He had a 6/10 against Forest, that's called an off day for good players.

Pretty certain the match day thread was very complimentary of him at half time with many reckoning he was our best player. I didn't hang around in there too long but it was the general vibe I got. If that wasn't the case then I stand corrected.

Second half was obviously a different story and the love turned to hate.

 

[NFM]

We agree that ETH is the best thing that's happened to the club in years, so maybe we should trust his judgement, he wanted Antony, he knows his capabilities and his deficiencies

He's brought us Casemiro, Martinez and Eriksen, personally I think he knows what he's doing

All of these players , including Antony, were on United's shortlist as presented to ETH.
Antony has no pace, I think the Arsenal supporters comments about reminders of Pepe are spot on. Everyone is allowed one big mistake, this has been ETH's so far. And Pepe was signed against Emery's wishes.

 

[Abraxas]

To be honest stating that Saka would be a top pick of rival players is not really writing off Antony. It's more of an acknowledgment that Saka is one of the top wide forwards in the league, and is currently much better than Antony. That's just how it is, no point in dressing that up as something else..Saka is brilliant and Antony is still adjusting, completely different performance levels there.

Antony has done okay. Output more than okay, I am quite content with that because I didn't expect many goals. He has also usually been secure in possession. We just want to see him provide more dynamism. That's no secret, even ETH has said it as far as I'm aware. It's a bit of a concern, why wouldn't it be, it's a concern until it's not a concern and that happens through performance. But he's got plenty of time to adjust and if you can score a few while you're doing that it's not half bad.

 

[Red in STL]

All of these players , including Antony, were on United's shortlist as presented to ETH.
Antony has no pace, I think the Arsenal supporters comments about reminders of Pepe are spot on. Everyone is allowed one big mistake, this has been ETH's so far. And Pepe was signed against Emery's wishes.

Maybe they were, maybe the weren't I have no idea, but he obviously sanctioned them, he doesn't strike me as the kind of bloke that would accept players being foisted on him