Apportioning the blame for our current poor situation

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

We are in a bit of a mess

I see many threads on here criticising all aspects of the club. I would say that the most common complaints, in order of number of posts seem to be:

1st= The Manager
1st= The Players (individually)
3rd Ed Woodward
4th The Glazers

What I am asking in this thread is for you to apportion where YOU think the blame lies in percentage terms between the four aspects above, ensuring that it adds up to 100%

(Feel free to add in your own other aspects if applicable)

 

[Samid]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

 

[DoomSlayer]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

I feel mostly the same way.

 

[VivaObertan]

30% Pogba
25% Woodward
22% Glazers
10% Ole
5% Lingard
5% Matic
3% Other

10/10 thread

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I would make it something like

Glazers 60%
Woodward 25%
Manager 10%
Players 5%

But, interestingly, its the last two who get the lion's share of the stick on here

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We are in a bit of a mess

I see many threads on here criticising all aspects of the club. I would say that the most common complaints, in order of number of posts seem to be:

1st= The Manager
1st= The Players (individually)
3rd Ed Woodward
4th The Glazers

What I am asking in this thread is for you to apportion where YOU think the blame lies in percentage terms between the four aspects above, ensuring that it adds up to 100%

1. Nostalgia from advisory board (SAF, Gill etc), Woodward and Glazers = 50%
2. The Managers (past and present) = 30%
3. Ed Woodward & negotiation team = 15%
4. The current players = 5%

 

[SweetRightFoot]

Glazers 35%
Woodward 60%
Managers 5%

 

[Massive Spanner]

And a hundred percent reason to remember the name.

 

[groovyalbert]

Glazers 30%
Woodward 50%
Managers 10%
Players 10%

Losing Gill was arguably as damning as SAF calling it time when he did.

We lost credibility, respect and nouse when he left; replacing him with someone with zero football knowledge.

Yes, you can blame the Glazers for this, but the sheer amount of money we've chucked away under Ed is unforgivable.

 

[Samid]

Glazers 30%
Woodward 50%
Managers 10%
Players 10%

Losing Gill was arguably as damning as SAF calling it time when he did.

We lost credibility, respect and nouse when he left; replacing him with someone with zero football knowledge.

Yes, you can blame the Glazers for this, but the sheer amount of money we've chucked away under Ed is unforgivable.

Yet his job isn't under threat whatsoever. That's on the Glazers.

 

[ravi2]

Glazers 45 %
Woodward 45 %
Managers 5 %
Players 5 %

This is accurate in my opinion.

 

[DoomSlayer]

And a hundred percent reason to remember the name.

"This is ten percent players, twenty percent coaching,
Fifteen percent concentrated power of Glazers,
Five percent fans, fifty percent Woody" and then hit them with the punchline.

 

[red thru&thru]

Good thread.

Can we not have an official vote?

 

[ArjenIsM3]

50% Ed
25% Glazers
15% Past managers
5% Players
5% Ole

 

[Tarrou]

I blame the owners. I hate Woodward but the owners are responsible for him being in a position to bollocks everything up.

 

[Fortitude]

I think a top class manager would get by within the framework of the Glazers and Woodward. That is not to say they don't hold a solid portion of blame, but, management and coaching goes a long, long way and we've not had anything like the quality of it that sides who have risen to the top over the last 7 years have had.

Top class management can even take things to the point where everything is reflected back onto the higher ups as it then becomes clear that they are the glass ceiling holding the club back and no doubt to that can be attributed to anything else.

I should make it clear that I am apportioning the umbrella of recruitment in and of itself to the managers we've had and not Woodward, who I believe is very much a yes-man to the right managers and will blindly do what he is told - in Ole's case, and at the end of Mourinho's tenure, Woodward wised up some, but ostensibly, he's still what he was, and under the right manager, would be again.

So:

Management/Coaching - 55%
Woodward - 25%
Players - 15%
Glazers - 5%

Glazers are parasites, but they are also a hands off unit who are so detached from football that you can hardly associate them with the goings on at the club on a day to day or week by week basis. It's not out of line to say they are skimming whatever they can off the top and not letting us use the full breadth of our financial might, but, as non-football people, you can hardly be surprised that they are weary and doubtful when it comes to releasing funds when all our marquee buys have been disastrous. Return of interest, for them, is very probably a two-step procedure where things would make a lot more sense if what was brought in reaped any kind of dividends at all, but as far as they can see, big signings = uncertainty at a huge cost. Give them something to believe in and a few marquee signings that actually elevate the club, and they are less likely to be tentative releasing more funds in the future. After all success begets more money at its most basic form, which they obviously would not be opposed to.

 

[jackal&hyde]

If we are to discuss the time since SAF retired then it's 80% Woody and maybe 20% managers. The reason is that there was actually significant investment but the vast majority of players have been flops, showing that the club did not have a clear strategy and philosophy in place but just bought whomever the manager at the time wanted and unfortunately for us, few managers have the "eyes" of SAF. LVG and Mou have been abysmal in the transfer market and that is very difficult to fix.

The Glazers at at fault for the underinvestment during SAFs last few years.

 

[Maticmaker]

Performers (Players) 40%- key people, 'the professionals', inconsistent performances, some very poor approaches, commitment.
Conductor (Manager) 20%- Sets the plans, only focused on long term, which is good, but danger of going under before achieving goal
Impresario (Woodward) 30%- Controls the purse strings, tendency to interfere and micro-manage, but now seems to be backing off??
'Theatre of Dreams' Owners (Glazers) 10% Take their profit, but have still provided high levels of spend, need to invest in better stadium.

 

[JPRouve]

I blame the owners. I hate Woodward but the owners are responsible for him being in a position to bollocks everything up.

I agree with that, if Woodward is the biggest issue from a structural standpoint then anyone with the power to remove him is responsible for him.

 

[izec]

35% Woodward
30% Glazers
25% Ole
10% Players

The Glazers appointed Woodward, Woody appointed Ole, Ole isnt coaching

 

[Meep]

60 % Lindelof, Pogba, Phil Jones and Pereira
10 % Mata
5 % Ole
5 % Physio dep
5 % Glazers physio
3 % The special need one
2 % My karma
2 % The weather
2 % Everyone else but me
1 % Neighbours kids
1 % Trump
1 % Iran
1 % My math teacher

 

[kopviolator]

Glazers 70%
Woodward 20%
Gill 10%
Ole 10%
Players 10%

The transitional period when Fergie and Gill left the club is also worth mentioning. I'm gonna pin some blame on Gill who never should have left at the same time as Fergie.

Good thread.

 

[redcafe_reader]

Why most people blame the manager more than the players? We can't blame the laziness and irresponsibility of Lingard, Lindelof, etc on Ole. That's true he chose them, but when they are paid a fortune and being chosen they need to at least try their best. A lot of our players just hide behind the manager, whether it's Mourinho, Ole and it will continue with the next manager.

 

[kouroux]

Why most people blame the manager more than the players? We can't blame the laziness and irresponsibility of Lingard, Lindelof, etc on Ole. That's true he chose them, but when they are paid a fortune and being chosen they need to at least try their best. A lot of our players just hide behind the manager, whether it's Mourinho, Ole and it will continue with the next manager.

He picks them so he is responsible for them

 

[nobby the legend]

Glazers have appointed Woodward. Why do you consider the owners and their man as a different categories?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Depend on what our aim is and what we should blame for. Our mess with recruitments I would blame Glaziers and Woodward for. They picked the managers and didn't give enough funds or helped spend it poorly.
Although I do think the manager picks his players in the market so spending the money poorly is on them.

I say our mess is
30% Glaziers/Woodward
25% LVG
15% Mourinho
30% Ole

Of course our players could have done better, but it is up to the manager to coach them better. Also up to those at the top to replace our managers or give them enough funds to improve the side.

 

[Fortitude]

Why most people blame the manager more than the players? We can't blame the laziness and irresponsibility of Lingard, Lindelof, etc on Ole. That's true he chose them, but when they are paid a fortune and being chosen they need to at least try their best. A lot of our players just hide behind the manager, whether it's Mourinho, Ole and it will continue with the next manager.

The last time our players were coached was during LVG's tenure. After that, it's been one poor coach and staff to another. These players are obviously not the best, or anywhere near, but a top quality manager and coaching team would have got a lot more out of them than Mourinho and Ole's crews have.

They've shown, in small portions, that they can pull big wins out of the hat or go on winning streaks. A better manager manipulates and forges whatever he can and uses it as foundation from which he builds. That's why progressive managers should be sought at all costs.

 

[Bilbo]

Tried to put a percentage number on individuals but its impossible really. The majority of our problems currently stem from the previous years of poor recruitment. Can't put that on the Glazers really because they have come up with enough money for us to stay competitive if it was spent well, but it wasn't. The best answer I can give is 100% Woodward, but is that fair? I'm not sure whether it is or it isn't. He has landed a lot of players that our managers have asked for, and no doubt failed to land many, many others for whatever reason, but its the closest I can get to a good answer because his managerial recruitments have lacked continuity and foresight and its a large reason why we are where we are now.

 

[Shakesy]

10% Players (they're just crap. Can they help it?)
20% Glazers (just under 700 million pounds spent in the last 7 years)
30% Managers (in their favour - players simply stopped playing for them, but then again, they did buy shite players)
40% Woodward (BLAME HIM! BLAME HIM!)

 

[devilish]

Glazers: 50%
Woodward: 30%
Ole: 13%
Fitness coaches/Physios/scouts: 7%

The Glazers are most at fault here. They bought us out of debt only to saddle that debt over the club and they never bothered making sure that the football side is managed properly which lead for a financial guy to be given near absolute power over Manchester United. Woodward is second in line in terms of guilt. He refuse to bring help despite proven to be out of depth, he massively overpaid in terms of salaries, his 'lets wait till the end of the contract before handle a new contract' had been devastating to United + he was the one appointed to managers on the wane and a no body. Third in line is Ole. His tactics are non existent, he refuse to get rid of the boys and our transfer strategy had been naive (130m spent on decent but hardly world class players). The guy is clearly out of depth. Finally there's the backroom staff specifically the physios and the fitness coaches who can't keep players fit.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Glazers: 50%
Woodward: 30%
Ole: 13%
Fitness coaches/Physios/scouts: 7%

The Glazers are most at fault here. They bought us out of debt only to saddle that debt over the club and they never bothered making sure that the football side is managed properly which lead for a financial guy to be given near absolute power over Manchester United. Woodward is second in line in terms of guilt. He refuse to bring help despite proven to be out of depth, he massively overpaid in terms of salaries, his 'lets wait till the end of the contract before handle a new contract' had been devastating to United + he was the one appointed to managers on the wane and a no body. Third in line is Ole. His tactics are non existent, he refuse to get rid of the boys and our transfer strategy had been naive (130m spent on decent but hardly world class players). The guy is clearly out of depth. Finally there's the backroom staff specifically the physios and the fitness coaches who can't keep players fit.

Good point on the last. We are the side in the league with most injuries on average for a very long time. No idea what we are doing.

 

[OleTheGreat]

Wow! What a way to bring out the frustrations out of every United fan. Siding blames on everyone. It is not easy but i think we have problems all through the club including the owners. I rather spend time on changing things around rather than pointing fingers. We need new owners and from there on everything else will change automatically.

 

[Canagel]

Glazers
Woodward
Solskjaer
Mourinho
Moyes
LVG
Players

 

[passing-wind]

I think a top class manager would get by within the framework of the Glazers and Woodward. That is not to say they don't hold a solid portion of blame, but, management and coaching goes a long, long way and we've not had anything like the quality of it that sides who have risen to the top over the last 7 years have had.

Top class management can even take things to the point where everything is reflected back onto the higher ups as it then becomes clear that they are the glass ceiling holding the club back and no doubt to that can be attributed to anything else.

I should make it clear that I am apportioning the umbrella of recruitment in and of itself to the managers we've had and not Woodward, who I believe is very much a yes-man to the right managers and will blindly do what he is told - in Ole's case, and at the end of Mourinho's tenure, Woodward wised up some, but ostensibly, he's still what he was, and under the right manager, would be again.

So:

Management/Coaching - 55%
Woodward - 25%
Players - 15%
Glazers - 5%

Glazers are parasites, but they are also a hands off unit who are so detached from football that you can hardly associate them with the goings on at the club on a day to day or week by week basis. It's not out of line to say they are skimming whatever they can off the top and not letting us use the full breadth of our financial might, but, as non-football people, you can hardly be surprised that they are weary and doubtful when it comes to releasing funds when all our marquee buys have been disastrous. Return of interest, for them, is very probably a two-step procedure where things would make a lot more sense if what was brought in reaped any kind of dividends at all, but as far as they can see, big signings = uncertainty at a huge cost. Give them something to believe in and a few marquee signings that actually elevate the club, and they are less likely to be tentative releasing more funds in the future. After all success begets more money at its most basic form, which they obviously would not be opposed to.

Exactly my stance. Woodward being inept doesn't automatically merit mediocrity from the manager. If all of the fans give Solskjaer praise for besting the likes of City, Spurs, Chelsea then he likewise is responsible for every loss / draw poor result this season. You can't have it both ways, Woodward is not responsible for the inconsistency of this team.

I'll say it time and time again the problem with the hierarchy of Manchester United has never been spending money since SAF retired, it's the infrastructure of how the money is invested because the resources are allocated to manager which is the primary problem. The impetus comes from the manager and eventually when they are sacked we have a revolving door rebuild because the next guy wants the previous guys goods sold. As a contrast anyone who supports Solskjaer is in effect supporting the Glazers.

The moment Solskjaer took the job without confronting to have a mediator from a DOF he became an enemy of progress. Like Mourinho, like Moyes, like LVG we have exactly the same problem. Changing transfer "targets" is NOT a change in transfer strategy

 

[redshaw]

Glazers 50%

Woodward and Co 50%

These are the people running this shit show. Glazers won't get competent people in after seven years of pathetic management. This management can't make a correct decision on football matters or offer any presence, authority or control. They've picked the managers post Moyes. LVG highlighted the problems, he couldn't fix or help but could see what a chasm Fergie left.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Glazers 100%. Even though their pet monkey is the main culprit for the state our club is in the Glazers are the only ones who can remove him from his post. Not doing so makes them 100% responsible.

 

[redcafe_reader]

He picks them so he is responsible for them

It's true if it only happens under Ole. But it happened under Mourinho, a strict manager and under Ole, a more friendly manager. Also by that logic Ed pick Ole so he's responsible for Ole, and Glazer pick Ed (and keep) so all responsibility should be on the Glazer?

What I am trying to say is, you can't put in the same performance as Lingard, or Lindelof, or a lot of our other players at a club like Real or Barcelona. But until this year there is almost nobody in the stadium, or in the media, criticize them, so it seems our "culture" allows that to continue. Lingard has been doing feck all for who knows how long, but there is still a big fan base that maintains the opinion he is "hard-working". In my opinion, the same can be said about Lindelof, Shaw, Mata, Martial, etc. I didn't include Pogba since he already got too much abuse from the media and our legends.

The last time our players were coached was during LVG's tenure. After that, it's been one poor coach and staff to another. These players are obviously not the best, or anywhere near, but a top quality manager and coaching team would have got a lot more out of them than Mourinho and Ole's crews have.

They've shown, in small portions, that they can pull big wins out of the hat or go on winning streaks. A better manager manipulates and forges whatever he can and uses it as foundation from which he builds. That's why progressive managers should be sought at all costs.

Mourinho is not a poor coach, as evidenced in our result under him, and the result of every single team under him before us. But after there is an issue between the manager and the player, the manager got sacked and players get out scot-free, some even get a new contract. It is happening right now again under Ole.

My point is, our fan need to be more "vocal" to the laziness and hiding from our player, otherwise, the manager, whether it's Ole or anyone else will have no help, as he surely got no help from our board. What if we got Klopp or Pep, who is famous for forcing their player to try super hard both in work rate and follow instructions, and our players just didn't like it?

What we need is talented players that tries hard, but with the current situation, it seems we can only have talented players that do not care or try-harding player without talent. Why try to win if you can just turn up, look "busy" and collect a paycheck every week?

 

[Lentwood]

Woodward: 90% - no vision, no leadership, no structure, no strategic direction, thinks like a fan, doesn't understand football, acts in a very 'zero-sum' accountant-like manner not appropriate for running a football club, arrogant

The Glazers: 10%* - lack of investment 2005-2010 possibly somewhat culpable for situation Moyes inherited in 2014 (ageing team - Giggs/Scholes/Ferdinand/Vidic, RvP, Evra etc...)

Moyes, van Gaal, Jose, Solskjaer: 0%

The Players: 0%

*the caveat here is that you could say 'ah but the Glazers appointed Ed, and therefore they are responsible for HIS poor performance'....which is fair but isn't quite the way I'm framing my answer.

 

[Shakesy]

He picks them so he is responsible for them

But where does that end? The Glazers? Yet, they have given Woodward and his managers almost a billion pounds.

 

[Skills]

Fanbase - 20% for constantly lowering the standards to satisfy their desperation to have a manager for another 20years regardless of quality

Owners - 20% for being too passive and reluctant to make a change

CEO - 30% same as owners but mixed with actual poor decision making

Manager - 30% for buying shit, inability to coach and make use of what we have and just giving up halfway through

Players - too low level. They're either good enough or they're not. If they're not it's out of their control, and it's the club and managers fault for having them they're in the first place.