Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?

Foxbatt

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I am sure that there was another Gate who was a football manager.
 

The Brown Bull

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Kane, Grealish, Sancho, Rashford, Foden, Sterling etc in attack.

Good defence and decent midfield (better options on the bench).

Should be miles better than this. Better squad than Italy and they control games, press like animals, look dangerous in attack.

Difference is calibre of coaches, even with worse players.
A 1 níl win over an ageing Croatia and a lucky 0 - 0 against Scotland suggest otherwise. Italy have beaten Turkey & Switzerland 3 - 0.
 

Tallis

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The midfield is average. Workers rather than quality.

There is obvious class in attack and the fullbacks but suspect beyond the ability of Southgate to get them playing effectively. And herein lies one of the problems - his connections in the media make him seem more competent than he is (similar to Lampard at Chelsea).
 

Green_Red

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Scotland played a good game and got their tactics spot on. I thought I'd see McGinn and McT in midfield but playing the kid in there with McGinn and putting McT on defensive duties was a brilliant move by the Scotland manager. Don't think England would have seen that coming. There aren't many teams that will try to play that way against England though once everyone gets out of the group stages.
 

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Southgate doesn’t help, but England’s lack of quality midfielders who can play progressive passes is the death knell of the attack irrespective of the names and so-called worth of the forwards. There’s a lot of talk of switching forward for forward, but it’s redundant if that midfield isn’t fixed, pronto.

Same old story: play a decent side in the knockout rounds and get soundly played off the park.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Midfield is a problem, but it could be helped by playing Sancho/Grealish(he was dire today I know) more.

Southgate is just terrible.
 

izak

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Errh it's so obvious, Southgate is to be held responsible for the teams bad performance and rightly so. there's something off about his face, clueless as some have pointed out it's so easy to dislike him, It put the image of someone who narrowly escaped down syndrome.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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'he combines the frictionless skate of Lionel Messi with the aggressive bounce of Diego Maradona – his uniqueness is what makes him special.' Guardian article talking about Foden. Ridiculous and standard vastly overrating of young English players.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's actually hilarious
 

tenpoless

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'he combines the frictionless skate of Lionel Messi with the aggressive bounce of Diego Maradona – his uniqueness is what makes him special.' Guardian article talking about Foden. Ridiculous and standard vastly overrating of young English players.
Based on that description he's not even a human. He's a giant ball on a skate board.
 

Lelouch geass

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2 points. One is English team despite talent has always been like this like Spanish team. They will win a trophy but dont know when. Second is where is Southgate sack watch thread.
 

groovyalbert

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Just all really disjointed.

Everything about this England side suggests they don't really know who they're playing with, or how they should be playing.

No matter how good or bad the players, the fundamental issues in this case are on the manager.

But also, all England's better players look knackered.
 

Lebo

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How does Portugal, Germany and Italy have better starting 11's?
you are kidding right? How many of these English players can start for Germany? Harry Kane on form and full backs. That’s if they don’t play Kimmich there.
Portugal? Probably few since Ronaldo play as a CF. Portugal has Bernardo Silva, Fernandez, Jota, Felix . I don’t know which English player you are going to squeeze here. Maybe CB but I doubt replaying Fonte with Maguire is much of an upgrade. Fullbacks definitely but if Cancelo was there then the margin isn’t that big.

The added benefit of the above mentioned teams is Chemistry.
 

Bebestation

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Who is the best manager that would fit England National team?

Id love to see someone like Eddie Howe there.
 

Bobade

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Errh it's so obvious, Southgate is to be held responsible for the teams bad performance and rightly so. there's something off about his face, clueless as some have pointed out it's so easy to dislike him, It put the image of someone who narrowly escaped down syndrome.
Whoa. Come on, that's not cool (last sentence obviously, don't know how to bold a quote...)
 

dal

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There’s no reason we can’t play the below.


————————-Kane————————
Rashford——-Grealish————Foden
———————-————Mount———————
———————Rice————————————

Mount is busy and puts his foot in anyway. We have a great chance to win the tournament if we play like this I feel, we’ve got to be on the front foot and put it to teams. I mean Phillips plays a very attacking role anyway!

1 goal in two games isn’t good enough with the talent we have.
 

CM10

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Southgate hasn't a clue really. Struggling against Scotland and waits an age to make a change when we've got a stacked bench. Genuinely mad that both of Rice/Phillips stayed on the pitch past 70 minutes when it was 0-0, and Sterling never should've completed 90 minutes.

It does show no matter how talented the squad is you will always be at the mercy of the manager. Southgate is one who is extremely risk averse.
 

Hulksmash

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Both. Take Foden as an example, if he wasn't playing in a Pep team , where he has 99% time of the ball , he wouldnt be that overhyped.
 

Tallis

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you are kidding right? How many of these English players can start for Germany? Harry Kane on form and full backs. That’s if they don’t play Kimmich there.
Portugal? Probably few since Ronaldo play as a CF. Portugal has Bernardo Silva, Fernandez, Jota, Felix . I don’t know which English player you are going to squeeze here. Maybe CB but I doubt replaying Fonte with Maguire is much of an upgrade. Fullbacks definitely but if Cancelo was there then the margin isn’t that big.

The added benefit of the above mentioned teams is Chemistry.
Don’t feel very strongly in either direction about this debate but would you say that Sancho outperforms Gnabry based on domestic league performances ? Most premier league watchers would put Grealish and Foden ahead of Werner and Possibly Havertz
 

CG1010

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English players are hyped too much. The likes of Rashford, Kane, Sancho, Sterling etc., are good but one or two tiers below the best attacking players in the world. Similarly, in midfield and defence. And England plays like a team who is in a tier behind top 2-3 teams. Add to that the general tactical ineptitude english teams have had forever, due to which they rarely punch above their weight except for some lucky moments.
 

CM10

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you are kidding right? How many of these English players can start for Germany? Harry Kane on form and full backs. That’s if they don’t play Kimmich there.
Portugal? Probably few since Ronaldo play as a CF. Portugal has Bernardo Silva, Fernandez, Jota, Felix . I don’t know which English player you are going to squeeze here. Maybe CB but I doubt replaying Fonte with Maguire is much of an upgrade. Fullbacks definitely but if Cancelo was there then the margin isn’t that big.

The added benefit of the above mentioned teams is Chemistry.
I think he's right. You could just as easily flip the question and ask how many of those countries' players would get into England's best 11? Kroos and Kimmich from Germany, possibly Neuer.

Ronaldo and Fernandes from Portugal. Italy is more difficult to say because they have a very good manager and a very strong spine, I think the way they play is less reliant on individuals.

England should be able to mix it with any of them based on talent though. There's one or two positions England are slightly lacking in but it's other factors like tournament experience or the manager which are likely to let us down.
 

P-Nut

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Who next after Southgate? Think I'd gamble on Eddie Howe personally, as there is no other English manager that has got a side playing decent football and would be available.
 

Red Pumpkin

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Player by player the english team is very good in practically every position BUT at the same time a bit overrated by the brits (as usual). In FIFA-terms no one is legendary level, there are few or no world beaters but a lot of very capable players. It's a team full of 4-star players but you'd be hard pressed to name one 5-star player in the team with the possible exception of Kane and Sancho as starlet waiting for a break through on the international stage following his Dortmund exploits.

In FIFA England have 8 players rated 85 or higher, players expected to add further quality. This is how the tournament have played out for the top-8
a) not delivered/set the tournament alight (Kane 88, Sterling 88)
b) been benched/left out of the tournament (Sancho 87, Henderson 86, Vardy 86, Rashford 85, Walker 85)
c) been injured (TAA 87)

Yet I don't believe Southgate is necessarily at fault either. He seems to have done a good job overall since he took over and I'm quite confident there are few foreign managers around who fully understand the english mindset, can rally the troops and is willing to leave club football for NT. I can't really see english players leave it all on the line like Chile or Croatia have done time and again in tournaments, that's what's lacking the most. Heart. But also technical issues.

So in summary
- England have good players such as Foden, Rashford and Sterling but lack a devastating player such as Mbappe, Neymar, Salah (prime Ribéry, Robben) to unlock defences on their own. The one with numbers equaling prime Ribéry - Jadon Sancho - is firmly stuck on the bench or in the stands.
- Kane is a very good player quite similar to Lewandowski or Benzema. He needs help, he is not a physical monster such as Haaland, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic or even Duvan Zapata who can bully defences. Neither is he as tricky as Suarez or why not Vardy.
- I have hardly watched Rice or Phillips, are they decent or WC? Are they like Schweinsteiger/Khedira, Raketic/Modric, Pogba/Kante, van Bommel/de Jong? That's the level required of teams aiming to win World Cups or Euros.
- TAA is sorely missed. A great wingback like Lahm, Darijo Srna, Marcelo, Zanetti can add 2-3 vital assists in a tournament and makes sure the winger can tuck inside whilst the opponents can't double up.
- Do you remember Schweinsteiger and Keylor Navas in WC14? Nani and Cristiano Ronaldo in Euros 16? Wilmar Barrios for Colombia in WC18? Gary Medel in every got damn tournament he played for Chile? Ronaldo and Khan in WC02. These players played out of their skin. Who is willing to do that for England? Who will drag the team along?
 

rpitchfo

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What? I have never seen anyone rate Southgate or suggest he’s a good manager?

how can he be overrated????

I hate this cynical reimagining of reality when England are in a tournament drives me crazy.

1. nobody rates Southgate...so he is not overrated.
2. England are not “overhyped” nobody I’ve spoken to considers England capable of winning the tournament.
 

Bwuk

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What? I have never seen anyone rate Southgate or suggest he’s a good manager?

how can he be overrated????

I hate this cynical reimagining of reality when England are in a tournament drives me crazy.

1. nobody rates Southgate...so he is not overrated.
2. England are not “overhyped” nobody I’ve spoken to considers England capable of winning the tournament.
SkyBet had them as second favourites to win it behind France.
 

Marwood

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What? I have never seen anyone rate Southgate or suggest he’s a good manager?

how can he be overrated????

I hate this cynical reimagining of reality when England are in a tournament drives me crazy.

1. nobody rates Southgate...so he is not overrated.
2. England are not “overhyped” nobody I’ve spoken to considers England capable of winning the tournament.
I'd say the entire media machine rates Southgate. He's generally praised all round by them.
 

Lebo

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I think he's right. You could just as easily flip the question and ask how many of those countries' players would get into England's best 11? Kroos and Kimmich from Germany, possibly Neuer.

Ronaldo and Fernandes from Portugal. Italy is more difficult to say because they have a very good manager and a very strong spine, I think the way they play is less reliant on individuals.

England should be able to mix it with any of them based on talent though. There's one or two positions England are slightly lacking in but it's other factors like tournament experience or the manager which are likely to let us down.
Portugal ? Let’s see Bernardo Silva, Fernandez, Ronaldo, Diaz, Felix, Cancello he’ll even Moutinho will get in the English team. As for Germany Kimmich, Muller, Gundogan, Kroos, Gorentzka, Neuer, Hummels. Not sure about how you feel about Rudiger vs Stones
 

JPRouve

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SkyBet had them as second favourites to win it behind France.
I don't understand this. How can Portugal not be above England, I have them above are at the same level than France.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I don't understand this. How can Portugal not be above England, I have them above are at the same level than France.
It's based betting patterns. Is it so perplexing that English fans have a flutter on their team to win? It doesn't mean much beyond English being hopeful and patriotic.
 

Flexdegea

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I know there are people on here who will hate me for this, or accuse me of having an agenda, but it does remind me of Ole tbh.

Not got the best team to work with, but at the same timedoesn’t utilise what he has to it’s full potential.

safety first, no plan B.

You are nutz if you think Ole wouldn't love that bench for options. We literally trying to buy Sancho to improve us and he can't get subbed on under Southgate :lol:


Love the way everyone is just throwing Ole in, and they both even aren't comparable. Our first 11 pretty much set in stone, where as Southgate actively leaving his best players on the bench. Aye they defo similar
 

Fowi

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This England thing has been going on for ages. At least as far as I can remember watching England and that's roughly since 1994. Now, you can blame it on Southgate, but the fact of the matter is that England have tried several models with several different coaches - some of them top class in Sven and Capello - and on the overall they've always played disjointed and far more often than not disappointing football.

However, what every England manager has lacked in the last many years has been motivational personality. From Sven to Capello to Roy to Southgate, all of them have been managers who usually don't instill that motivation into the team. Managers who will make you bite the ball when it's needed. I think that is one of the reasons why England teams have not looked quite right. Forget about organizing some fancy playing style. Most national teams - if not all of them - play disjointed football, tactically and organizationally speaking. What you need is your best players taking care of themselves, being at full pelt and then the rest of the team will follow. When you see the likes of Harry Kane - and further down the history the likes of Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard - merely being there, you know things are not right.

There is absolutely nothing stopping the likes of Sterling or Rashford getting the ball out wide and trying to beat his nearest marker time and time again to get the crowd and the rest of the team going. Why don't they do it? Because overall they are not quite as motivated to do so. Why? Because it's not club football, the national football doesn't mean as much and the manager doesn't have the personality to change it. Simple as that.
 
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George the Cat

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But I thought Rice was our saviour, and that bloke from Leeds was the new prodigy?
Isnt Foden a football genius and wasnt Mount Chelsea’s best player last season?
The way they played last night reminded me of us playing against teams that sit back, slow, ponderous and not much of a clue.
 

JPRouve

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It's based betting patterns. Is it so perplexing that English fans have a flutter on their team to win? It doesn't mean much beyond English being hopeful and patriotic.
So they don't want to win money? I understand it even less. :lol:
 

Josep Dowling

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It’s both but England players are way overhyped.

If Southgate plays 4-3-3 he has to play actual wingers on the left and right. Instead he’s done exactly as expected and used a CAM so to fit in his favourite Mason Mount and then one of Foden and Grealish. It doesn’t work.

What is showing is you need to play players based on recent form. As usual the England manager has gone back to his favourites. Sterling, Kane, Mount should all be dropped for the next game. Southgate doesn’t have the bottle to do it though and that’s precisely he should be nowhere near the job.
 

Fortitude

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It’s not fair to rely on someone as young as Bellingham, but England need midfielders who act as connective tissue between the defence and attack, and also have the ability to rapidly turnover lost balls into progressiv and punishing counter passes. It’s not just about having a Grealish or the like out there - the midfielder(s) who get the ball to players like this in the most succinct and efficient manner are just as vital, especially if they have it in them to mix up the play or slot into forwards themselves. Apart from Bellingham, England don’t have a player like this, just simple drones.

If you’re going to use a simpler midfield, then it has to be a workhorse that swarms the opposition and does basic tasks exceptionally well; Liverpool at their best, if you will, but that’s where someone like Southgate is utterly out of his depth and where England have no hope with him in charge - he is never going to make a team greater than the sum of its parts, and he has no clue about system implementation or execution, so what, say, Mancini has Italy playing like with an infer squad, Southgate is simply not capable of.

So between the first and second paragraph, the problems in midfield are clear: it’s not good enough on an individual basis, and collectively, the manager isn’t good enough to make them be.

The talk of the forward line is somewhat valid, but they could be doing so much better if the midfield behind them was functional and competent.

Southgate further compounds the problem by having dire utilisation of his full-backs due to his pragmatic, safety first dogma. This means the forwards aren’t supported and are easily isolated or cut off from one another as the opposition don’t even have overlappers to worry about let alone multiple midfielders stepping into the fray to make blocking passing lanes between the forwards harder to block or decide upon.

So it’s both: midfield needs to be considerably better, but also Southgate is completely out of his depth.
 

Classical Mechanic

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So they don't want to win money? I understand it even less. :lol:
Surprised that you don't know this but the gambling industry only exists because of the irrationality of the individual. How many Scots do you think had a flutter on their team to win last night even though the odds were against it? To some it enhances the experience. If you team takes an unlikely win then the extra cash in the pocket makes it all the more sweeter. Put it this way, I don't know a single England fan in my real life that thinks England will win this tournament. Obviously there are some out there that may genuinely think it but I don't know a single one.