Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?

[Fortitude]

I don't think there's been a more confusing and streaky performer at United than Martial in the last 30yrs, if not more (feel free to name others) as, usually, you get an idea and feel for a player and what he's about if requirements etc. are met. Nani for example, was notoriously fragile, but when coaxed correctly, could produce world class performances against anybody.

Martial had his best season under LVG many moons ago when he was basically an outlet allowed to run free and dribble to his heart's content. That was so long ago now, it can be struck off as an outlier beings as, over all his other seasons here, that level has not been replicated over anything but sporadic dribs and drabs before the invariable drop in form or injury.

The arguments for and against the player run rife with neither camp landing a decisive blow given Martial can be both world class and amateurish in a run of games.

He wants to be a #9, but exhibits no striker instincts to read the run of play and get into probable goalscoring positions, nor does he make off the ball movements that drag CB's one way before he dips the other; he also makes no runs for midfielders to find him on angles or to enable him to collect the ball, turn and run at a backline. Within this paragraph, a gamut of striker archetypes can be found, from the six-yard poachers to the rabid foragers to the classy, low contact, technicians to the pure dribblers - Martial fits none of the categories, not even in combination, so what is he?

An argument can be made that his ideal set-up is to be surrounded by high-level, one and two touch triangulation players as that seems to be the style that he enjoys and tries the most at; he also holds his own in the chain, as in, plays don't break down off the back off errant passes or technical failures on his part frequently.

I'll spare you paragraphs more and just ask whether you think better players surrounding him would see him go up a level, or is he simply an erratic wildcard we shouldn't put a burden of responsibility on (because he can't be relied upon to deliver)? Is he an enigma that can be solved?

 

[BlahRules]

RVP said Martial and Rashford made intelligent runs which are never picked out by the midfield or the ball playing defenders.

If a player keeps making the runs and never receiving the ball because the team around him are inept to make the pass then would he keep making the same run? We will find when Bruno plays if it is him or the team.

 

[crossy1686]

Martial's problems are all to do with his mentality. When things aren't going for him he seems to withdraw and dwell on them instead of forcing the issue by doing the basics better. He's clinical, probably our best finisher and most composed in front of goal but he's too inconsistent to ever be a world class striker.

Perhaps he'll do better once he matures but in the mean time we should either sign a class CF and bench him or look to sell in the summer while he still retains fair market value.

He will 100% not become our De Bruyne/Salah, that's the only thing I'm certain of.

 

[Water Melon]

Yesterday Martial was playing at a snails pace, felt like he is not fit at all.

 

[Rozay]

I said this would soon return when we were doing ‘Martial is our most important attacker’ threads just a couple of months back.

 

[SATA]

He needs Pogba to play on his level. They seem to connect very together on the pitch and find each other with passes. Let’s hope Bruno can add that extra spark to this

 

[Fortitude]

RVP said Martial and Rashford made intelligent runs which are never picked out by the midfield or the ball playing defenders.

If a player keeps making the runs and never receiving the ball because the team around him are inept to make the pass then would he keep making the same run? We will find when Bruno plays if it is him or the team.

Whenever we manage to make a relatively high level build up, Martial thrives, it seems, or is certainly in his element, so there is an elevation of sorts when we are cohesive, but is it enough.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Bags of talent to go all the way in the game but lacks heart and desire. Aguero works his nads off. He's not just a world class striker he works hard too. Martial isn't interested unless we get the ball.

 

[Fortitude]

I said this would soon return when we were doing ‘Martial is our most important attacker’ threads just a couple of months back.

What would return?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Martial's problem is that he kind of falls between two (or three) stools.

He's not deadly or quick witted enough in the box to work as a classic number 9, and he can't lead the line in the way that, say, Kane can do. But he doesn't have the work rate to be a false 9, because false 9s have to get engaged in the midfield possession & pressing battles, something he doesn't seem to want to do. Similarly, he can play on the left with good quality going forward, but you can't rely on him to cover the left back against the overlapping runs of the opposite right back. So its difficult to know how to fit him in.

In a way OP's right, what Martial excels at is pinging the ball in triangles around the edge of the box, looking for one-twos, little runs, or finding space to curl shots in with his right foot. But almost no team has the luxury of building a team with such a player in it these days. The days of strikers waiting for the midfielders to supply them with chances is long gone. As with so many positions on the pitch, attackers need to fulfil multiple roles and Martial struggles to do that.

 

[JB7]

He's not good enough for where we need to be. Far too inconsistent to be a top player despite his ridiculous level of ability. Exactly the type of player to flourish at a hipster club like Dortmund or Napoli where there's no pressure or expectation on them and they only need to turn up 10 games a season.

 

[Dan_F]

Said it in the Martial thread, but it would be interesting to know what Ole wants from his striker in the normal 4231. Both Greenwood and Martial come extremely deep to get on the ball, when ideally that’s either the 10s job, or the 10 and wide players should be running behind. Almost like how Liverpool play Firminho, except I don’t think it’ll work so well with our system, as the deeper forward till get in the way of the 10.

With Rashford we have someone who is going to run beyond Martial, but we don’t have anyone else who can do that. Hopefully Bruno can provide that threat in terms of getting in the box, but also picking out runs that are made.

 

[Bobcat]

Bags of talent to go all the way in the game but lacks heart and desire. Aguero works his nads off. He's not just a world class striker he works hard too. Martial isn't interested unless we get the ball.

Agreed. His talent is obvious to see, but it seems he lacks that fire in his belly that separates the truly great players from the good/mediocre ones.

His top level is really high, but at the same time his bottom level is utterly horrific. Yesterday and vs Burnley it seemed he could no give two fecks and its incredibly frustrating to watch because when hes in that kind of mood, hes not even doing the basics right. This is not something new either, its been the same story under 3 different managers.

Maybe Jose was right?

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

RVP said Martial and Rashford made intelligent runs which are never picked out by the midfield or the ball playing defenders.

If a player keeps making the runs and never receiving the ball because the team around him are inept to make the pass then would he keep making the same run? We will find when Bruno plays if it is him or the team.

If RVP says it I'm loath to contradict him and I'm well aware the desert of creativity behind the forward line must be dispiriting for a striker but I thought Martial was personally very poor yesterday, as he has been in a few games where we've asked him to be the senior man up front for us. Like you say if Bruno can add a spark for us we'll see whether Martial lifts his form too.

 

[NoLogo]

He suffers from with most of our players suffer from. He doesn't improve. I don't think I would rate him much higher than when he was 19 and joined us right now but that's a common theme with almost every player we buy. Some stagnate, some regress and that's even something that seems to happen to our own youth players once they make the step up from the reserves to the first team. First you get excited about them because you see all the promise in them but after a year or two you notice they haven't really added anything to their game and don't seem much further along in their development than they were when they broke into the first team or when we bought them.

Since I obviously don't know what our players are doing on a day to day basis I can only guess what is going behind the scenes but it's a real problem if we want to go down the route of buying younger players but can't really improve them like other teams who take that approach do.

 

[Ish]

Seems they both struggle without each other - Rashford/Martial, as they’re basically carrying the attack between them - especially without Pogba feeding them. Fact is, we have no quality 10 (until Bruno ), and our RW is non existent. So you have 2 forwards carrying a big responsibility. Remove one, and it’s even more of a struggle.

Thats just a simple, surface level analysis observation though. There are definitely other variables as well. Martials laid back attitude for 1, would probably be perceived as a lack of desire by some. etc etc.

 

[RedIan]

He flatters to deceive. Personally think he is over rated. On a good day he is very very good. However he has far more bad days than good and that is why he never plays for France and why he will never be world class. I think its his mental approach. Lack of work ethic or thinking hes better than he is? Who knows whats on his mind but hes not “switched on” consistently.
.
On his own he is not good enough to lead the forward line he just gets lost. Haarland would have been far better had we got him.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Agreed. His talent is obvious to see, but it seems he lacks that fire in his belly that separates the truly great players from the good/mediocre ones.

His top level is really high, but at the same time his bottom level is utterly horrific. Yesterday and vs Burnley it seemed he could no give two fecks and its incredibly frustrating to watch because when hes in that kind of mood, hes not even doing the basics right. This is not something new either, its been the same story under 3 different managers.

Maybe Jose was right?

Don't see us ever winning the league again with him as our main striker. Definitely good enough to have as an option and i don't want him to leave but he's not good enough to be the main man for me. Trouble is Rashford has looked so much better from the left too so not sure where that leaves Martial. Rashford for me is the better player.

 

[Rozay]

Martial's problem is that he kind of falls between two (or three) stools.

He's not deadly or quick witted enough in the box to work as a classic number 9, and he can't lead the line in the way that, say, Kane can do. But he doesn't have the work rate to be a false 9, because false 9s have to get engaged in the midfield possession & pressing battles, something he doesn't seem to want to do. Similarly, he can play on the left with good quality going forward, but you can't rely on him to cover the left back against the overlapping runs of the opposite right back. So its difficult to know how to fit him in.

In a way OP's right, what Martial excels at is pinging the ball in triangles around the edge of the box, looking for one-twos, little runs, or finding space to curl shots in with his right foot. But almost no team has the luxury of building a team with such a player in it these days. The days of strikers waiting for the midfielders to supply them with chances is long gone. As with so many positions on the pitch, attackers need to fulfil multiple roles and Martial struggles to do that.

This is good except the bits that aren’t true. Like he ‘doesn’t seem to want to get involved in the midfield possession’ or cannot cover multiple positions on the pitch.

He has shown great proficiency to drop deep and link play all season, but when he’s not the only forward thinking player in the opposition half. Some games, Greenwood joins the party, others, he does not. James is a glorified RB. Martial has been covering 9, 10 and 11 in many games. Rashford was similarly ineffective when Martial was injured and was being asked to be our only forward player of any real threat in the side.

Against Liverpool, he was probably the only player in our XI who had scored a goal for at least 2 months. If you take away Brandon Williams’ goal from that, and Andreas’ deflection against Brighton I think, then the only player who had scored a goal since August. That’s a ridiculous scenario to find ourselves in.

 

[Sassy Colin]

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that Martial needs Rashford and Rashford needs Martial. When Martial was out, Rashford had a very lean spell, when Martial came back, he went on that incredible run. Now Rashford is out, Martial is struggling.

The opponent knows how good he is, that's why there are 3 and 4 defenders always round him and he can't find any space to get a clear sight of goal. With Rashford on the pitch, the opponent can't put 3 & 4 players round both Rashford & Martial, so both are far more productive.

This laid back attitude thing is also bollocks, he's clearly frustrated at not being able to find space to play his game, there was no frustration when he was on the pitch with Rashford.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

He is what he is, when he feels like turning up, he's running everywhere, leading the press, demanding the ball and making runs across goal that you beg him to make. When he's not up to it, he is dropping deep, trying to get on the ball in midfield areas effectively vacating the spot upfront. I think its time to move him and invest in a top quality #9. Haaland should have been it, now I don't know where an effective world class #9 is available.

 

[SATA]

I think he’s pretty overrated over here. Yes he’s a good player but having bags of talent as i have often seen described on him here are players like Hazard, Mbappe and Pogba, not him. He is just a good player which i think his current level is probably the highest ceiling he can reach. It’s a pity because he can certainly go up another level if he has more application and desire to get those numbers. He won’t go beyond 20 goals a season as a number nine at any other club, never mind at United

 

[L1nk]

He has talent that's always been obvious, I just think he isn't as good as people actually think he is, on his day he's capable of something magical, but that day is so few and far between, it feels more like a case of "what could have been" rather than "what is" but I can't see him going anywhere so he'll no doubt have plenty of time to actually reach the potential everyone knows he has.

 

[romufc]

Short term memories us fans. Back when Martial was injured and Rashford played that role he looked lost and calls for him being a championship footballer.

Before making a judgement on Martial, have a look when he received the ball, he had no one around him to pass to. Lingard always failed to play the ball to Lingard quick enough. We played against City where our strikers were isolated.

How many strikers score goals with no service?

Agreed that Martial doesn't make a typical striker run either so he looks lazy too.

He prefers playing with someone he can interchange with.

 

[Noc-Z]

I think he just doesn't have the hunger, the drive or the determination to be a top level striker. And he never will as you don't learn that, it should simply be in him but it's not there in my opinion.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

I said in the summer this club will go no major places relying on Martial and Rashford as our strikers/main men.

I have been proven wrong regarding Rashford, and will gladly admit that.

But Martial can do one as far I'm concerned. I genuinely cannot see this 'world class potential' people are seeing in this bloke. This is his 4th/5th season at United, and he is exactly the same hot-and-cold, fairweather player he was when he arrived. He has completely stagnated, to the point where what we are seeing now is his actual level.

Good but not great. Look at his salary compared to what the actual great strikers in Europe earn. It's disgraceful.

 

[JPRouve]

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that Martial needs Rashford and Rashford needs Martial. When Martial was out, Rashford had a very lean spell, when Martial came back, he went on that incredible run. Now Rashford is out, Martial is struggling.

The opponent knows how good he is, that's why there are 3 and 4 defenders always round him and he can't find any space to get a clear sight of goal. With Rashford on the pitch, the opponent can't put 3 & 4 players round both Rashford & Martial, so both are far more productive.

This laid back attitude thing is also bollocks, he's clearly frustrated at not being able to find space to play his game, there was no frustration when he was on the pitch with Rashford.

And beyond that they are attackers, they rely on what happens below them. If your midfield can't reliably bring and keep the ball in the last third, your forwards are doomed. Yesterday Martial was the only attacker with an attempt at goal, one of two with an attempt in open play. The fact that there is a thread about him today is baffling, I keep telling myself that some fans don't actually realize that football is a team game and that players rely on each others.

 

[Offside]

Not got the right attitude to go with the talent. Needs a rocket up his arse otherwise we should be looking to move him on. This is his 5th season here and he hasn't improved since his 1st.

 

[mirdo]

He is lazy and moody. No wonder that Mourinho wanted to get rid of him.

For those 'martial needs rashford and rashford needs martial' - there is no other average or better player that can play in attack that is with senior squad atleast a year. So when they play together, opposition players needs to watch both so they have less to deal with as a striker. Thats why they are more successful together. When there is only one - he is main threat for opposition so its easier for them to deal with him.

Personally I would get rid of him and beg Dybala to come last year.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

The arguments for and against the player run rife with neither camp landing a decisive blow given Martial can be both world class and amateurish in a run of games.

He wants to be a #9, but exhibits no striker instincts to read the run of play and get into probable goalscoring positions, nor does he make off the ball movements that drag CB's one way before he dips the other; he also makes no runs for midfielders to find him on angles or to enable him to collect the ball, turn and run at a backline. Within this paragraph, a gamut of striker archetypes can be found, from the six-yard poachers to the rabid foragers to the classy, low contact, technicians to the pure dribblers - Martial fits none of the categories, not even in combination, so what is he?

This isn’t true at all, watch the Liverpool game as one example. He makes tonnes of runs in to space and is just never found. He pulls off the shoulde, opens space and angles his body where he wants the ball yet no one can find him.
‘Even last night where he played as though he was injured he still made good runs that weren’t found. This then leads to him coming deep and when he does this other players need to start going beyond him in to the space he has just created. None of our lot bar Rashford and occasionally Lingard do that. Hopefully it’s something Bruno will do.

 

[Sassy Colin]

And beyond that they are attackers, they rely on what happens below them. If your midfield can't reliably bring and keep the ball in the last third, your forwards are doomed. Yesterday Martial was the only attacker with an attempt at goal, one of two with an attempt in open play. The fact that there is a thread about him today is baffling, I keep telling myself that some fans don't actually realize that football is a team game and that players rely on each others.

Yup, there is an awful lot of crap posted in this thread. Hopefully, with Bruno coming in, so that we have a proper functioning No. 10, it will make Martial's life so much easier and we will go back to getting the best out of him again.

 

[Born2Lose]

Didn't really notice him last night but I think his workrate has improved a lot this season.

The problem with a threadbare squad is two fold, you can't replace the talent of Pogba and Rashford with Mata and Lingard. But also our players must be physically wrecked. I think like James he's jaded.

I'll start judging these players with a critical eye after they return from the break.

 

[Ballache]

It's a combination of things:

-Bad service, we expect Martial to stay in the box and be at the end of chances. What usually happens is that all our attacks break down in the final third so he drops deep in order to get more involved which leaves us with no players in the opposition box.

-He needs to improves his runs behind defenders, that's both on him and our coaches. He needs to make an effort and make runs but we also need to have the right platform behind them to make sure that we take advantage of his runs. I don't think it's an attitude issue, more in-game IQ and lack of experience/coaching.

-Lack of rotation is an issue too, we need another body in there to supply both rest and competition.

With the correct additions in midfield and RW, Martial is easily a 20 goals a season striker. People are too harsh on him IMO, which is understandable considering how talented he is.

 

[Tom Cato]

its twofold. Marital is largely a system dependent player who doesn't strive to be a great individualist. It has a lot to do with our midfielders not being able to spring him through at times. Bruno Fernandes is a creative player that should have an immediate impact on Martials performance. Ferandes' forte is breakthrough creative passing, exactly what Martial needs to be able to put the ball in the net.

Secondly it also has to do with his work rate. He makes himself dependent on the system and sacrifices sticking to his role, over going the extra mile like you want him to most of the time. The comment from the manager last night about wanting a striker that "wants to break his nose to score a goal" is no shortage of a criticism on the current attitude of our forwards, Rashford excluded.

Martial is never going to be "the guy" here when he needs to carry the scoring, but he's always going to be "one of the guys" when they are all working in unison. I think its a little bit unfair to accuse him of not caring, as I am sure he does, very much. The open ended question is his willingness to go beyond his perceived role in attack and make things happen on his own, rather than rely on others to spring him forward.

 

[Bwuk]

We are a side with zero creativity in it - of course our forwards will struggle.

 

[Steven Seagull]

A lot of forwards would get frustrated playing in front of this midfield. In a perfect world he would be at 110% every week but we’ve seen multiple forwards look very isolated in recent years. Even the little pea started throwing his arms up in the air towards the end of his time

 

[The Original]

Martial and Rashford have always played best when they have had each other and Pogba around...Those three need to play together.

 

[Judas]

It's not a coincidence that he does better when we've got our best players fit. But I'd still like to see much more out of him when everything is not perfectly setup for him. I just don't truly believe he's got what it takes to consistently be the main number 9 for a top team, still hope he proves me wrong though. I'm sure if he was playing for City he'd do well due to all those creative players, but then his movement and general play can be just so shoddy. He's so static it hurts.

 

[11101]

We lack the interplay and vision he needs. He makes his runs and drops into space and we don't find him or link play through him, and then he starts to stop looking for it. He's never going to be an R9 who goes hunting for the ball in midfield and making it all happen on his own, but its his own problem that he gives up and becomes dejected far too easily.

 

[Judas]

I would say the amount of runs him and James make and its just totally ignored is truly frustrating, hopefully Bruno solves that a bit.