Are Spurs in a bit of a mess?

Damien

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That would be quite a bad deal to make on Mourinho's part unless his ego made him think there's no way he'd be outside the top 6 with Kane & Son. :confused:
Yeah, I don't buy that at all.
 

macheda14

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No idea if this works. Looks like it did.
I feel there must be more to that. Like what if they started next season and because everyone else plays a game but Spurs don’t they’re in the bottom half by default. Would that allow Levy to just pay minimal amounts? How far through a league would that come into effect. If Jose had Kane, Son and Lloris out for half a season and was 5 points behind 4th he’d be absolutely screwed over for something that wasn’t his fault yet he was performing above expectations. Surely this could only come into fruition after the league is done.

If it’s just based in position when sacking then well done to Levy. I’d must surely be more performance related.
 

terraloo

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- Big stadium to pay for.
- No match day revenue.
- No NFL or planned events.
- No manager and having to pay out Jose.
- Potentially no top 4 with no European football.
- Massive investment needed in the squad.
- Son and Kane wobbling about staying on.
- Failed Bale experiment which had cost a fortune.

It seems Spurs really needed the ESL as much as any of the Spanish and Italian clubs, if not more.

Where do they go from here?
You forgot to add that they have to repay HM Government a small matter of £175 million in the next 5 weeks
 

finneh

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The short answer is yes. 19/20 figures:
  • Turnover down £461m to £392m
  • EBITDA down from £168m down to £106m
  • This includes £61m Champions League revenue (very uncertain over the next few years)
  • This includes £95m match day revenue (will reduce massively 20/21 and is still uncertain for 21/22)
  • Cost to service debt has increased from £11m to £25m to £43m
  • Net debt increased to £605m (largest in the world)
  • Net transfer debt increased £114m (4th highest in the world), meaning total net debt is £719m
  • Wages are increasing faster than at any other top 6 club in recent years (81% in 4 years, albeit from a lower base)
Effectively spending is going up rapidly (wages, transfers, interest), whilst turnover is going down rapidly.

They need to put a sharp halt to their increasing costs; whilst at the same time praying stadiums open 100% next season, hoping in a Covid environment they will get a naming rights deal they couldn't achieve in a non-Covid world and ensuring they regularly finish in the CL (difficult with City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and United all looking far better at the moment and the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Everton all hoping to usurp them as well).

With Levy's record hiring managers I'd be worried as a Spurs fan. Seven poor managers, one average manager and one good manager in 20 years; the only good manager being fortunate as it was his second choice after being rejected by the awful Van Gaal.
 

africanspur

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They went through a purple patch and now the party’s over. They’re just as shite as the rest of us in that department.
It wasn't a purple patch when you consider where the club was 20 years ago or what has happened to what many would have considered our competitors even 10 years ago. There's been generally consistent improvement since they arrived.

I've got a lot of criticism for Levy but the reality is that a club like Spurs were never going to make the step up without improving the infrastructure, which is what they've been trying to do. As much as I Loved WHL, it was a tiny shithole.

Covid could not have come at a worse time for the club though, when the business plan was essentially to have massively increased stadium income and not just from football either.

From the outside, seems like we're pretty fecked at the moment.

Then again, I thought we were pretty fecked after we lost out on top 4 to Arsenal on the last day, when Chelsea won the CL, when Jol was fired, when we hsd 2 points from 8 games, the end of AVB, sling Berbatov and Keane in tjr same window, selling Bale, selling Modric.

Ive been wrong every time so we'll see.
 

Robertd0803

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That would be quite a bad deal to make on Mourinho's part unless his ego made him think there's no way he'd be outside the top 6 with Kane & Son. :confused:
In fairness you wouldnt expect them to be I guess.

They probably shouldnt be really but then they cant defend a lead for love nor money.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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As do Spurs ok not quite the same number as Chelsea but in the RA era Spurs are now into double figures
I wasn't meaning it in a bad way, just that its hard to not be linked with a manager who has managed Chelsea.
 

awop

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In fairness you wouldnt expect them to be I guess.

They probably shouldnt be really but then they cant defend a lead for love nor money.
Sure, even before the season started i thought they would be in the top 6 unless something very weird happened (hey West Ham :) )
But we're talking about Mourinho who has made a good chunk of his personnal fortune by getting the sack. It made him so much money that i can't see him being blindsided by such a clause.
In any case even if that's true, reading @finneh post shows there are bigger issues in the short and long term. Arsenal also took that Goverment loan (120M compared to their 175M) that needs to be repaid in May. Not sure Boris will be in a mood to grant us extensions :o
 

Zen86

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It wasn't a purple patch when you consider where the club was 20 years ago or what has happened to what many would have considered our competitors even 10 years ago. There's been generally consistent improvement since they arrived.

I've got a lot of criticism for Levy but the reality is that a club like Spurs were never going to make the step up without improving the infrastructure, which is what they've been trying to do. As much as I Loved WHL, it was a tiny shithole.

Covid could not have come at a worse time for the club though, when the business plan was essentially to have massively increased stadium income and not just from football either.

From the outside, seems like we're pretty fecked at the moment.

Then again, I thought we were pretty fecked after we lost out on top 4 to Arsenal on the last day, when Chelsea won the CL, when Jol was fired, when we hsd 2 points from 8 games, the end of AVB, sling Berbatov and Keane in tjr same window, selling Bale, selling Modric.

Ive been wrong every time so we'll see.
I wouldn’t say you’re a badly run club per se, just that you’re the same as everyone else who’s similar in terms of club stature. People on here generally equate playing well on the pitch with being a well run club, which is by no means always the case. You had a decent manager, made some decent transfers and academy promotions, and enjoyed relative success off the back of it. It’s mainly a reflection on us, because we really have been terribly run in the past.
 

Robertd0803

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Arsenal also took that Goverment loan (120M compared to their 175M) that needs to be repaid in May. Not sure Boris will be in a mood to grant us extensions :o
Wonder what would happen if they defaulted on the loans.......

Id imagine its a structured loan they start repaying from May unless I missed the reports on it earlier last year.
 

Lastwolf

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did they not restructure all those loans a while back that you can pay them back over 10 years ?
 

Bebestation

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They never have the ability to target a manager like Conte.

Mourinho was a decade too late.
 

lysglimt

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They need to sell Son and Kane for big money and spend wisely. Much easier said than done of course.
That's the problem - even if they get £130 million for Kane - they can't replace that quality with that Money - not even close
 

Tallis

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I am surprised to see how much debt they have. I somehow recalled they didn’t have much debt.

I don’t think their squad problems are as bad as Arsenal but on the other hand, Arsenal have a talented group of youth coming through. Can’t decide who is in deeper.
 

Sandikan

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Those early season days where the media were talking them up as potential champions, just because they'd booted a fresh off the beach no pre-season United down to 10men for 60mins in a freak game and maybe a couple of other ok wins :lol:

One media genius did an article showing how much more Jose had "achieved" with Tottenham than Ole had with us, despite being in the job a year less.

Magnificent knee jerkery your average redcafer would have been proud of.
 

Sandikan

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They need to sell Son and Kane for big money and spend wisely. Much easier said than done of course.
When they sold Bale they wasted that money on absolute tat.

They need to have luck in having some amazing talent come up through the youth system or identify such talent elsewhere.
Certainly not easy.

Their best bet is to get after early 20s players in the dutch/french leagues, but even then they'll probably be on the radar of others, and already command decent fees, so you can't get 5-6 in one summer.
 

Tallis

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I am surprised to see how much debt they have. I somehow recalled they didn’t have much debt.

I don’t think their squad problems are as bad as Arsenal but on the other hand, Arsenal have a talented group of youth coming through. Can’t decide who is in deeper.

PS on my above post.

I took a look at their squad. It’s not bad. Their front 2 are top quality and Moura is ok. They could use another good forward or striker.

Midfield has potential and good depth.

Full backs are fine.

Need a couple of good CBs.

Can sell Ali, not extend Bale’s loan and sell few fringe players.
 

Wicked_Badger

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Not sure Boris will be in a mood to grant us extensions :o
I don’t really think Boris is actually annoyed with the European Super League clubs. It’s just good PR for him to pretend to give a feck.

The Super League is probably something he and his Tory cronies secretly think is a good idea, given the idea is to ensure the long term prosperity of the rich and powerful.
 

TheReligion

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PS on my above post.

I took a look at their squad. It’s not bad. Their front 2 are top quality and Moura is ok. They could use another good forward or striker.

Midfield has potential and good depth.

Full backs are fine.

Need a couple of good CBs.

Can sell Ali, not extend Bale’s loan and sell few fringe players.
The question is how do you add the quality you need, and retain the quality you have, with a very tight transfer and wage budget? And no European pull?
 

2cents

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Always fun to laugh at Spurs, but it’s a bit sad if they’re really in a bad way. Or at least it’s a grim reflection of the problems in football. They’ve generally tried to do things the right way in breaking into the Big Four and turning it into six along with City. They didn’t get a billionaire takeover, they bought and sold quite wisely, invested in a great new stadium, etc. But despite all that, a couple of bad moves and a pandemic has them desperate for the SuperLeague bailout, without which things are now looking very uncertain for them.

Who wouldn’t want a billionaire takeover looking at Spurs?
 

Classical Mechanic

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Always fun to laugh at Spurs, but it’s a bit sad if they’re really in a bad way. Or at least it’s a grim reflection of the problems in football. They’ve generally tried to do things the right way in breaking into the Big Four and turning it into six along with City. They didn’t get a billionaire takeover, they bought and sold quite wisely, invested in a great new stadium, etc. But despite all that, a couple of bad moves and a pandemic has them desperate for the SuperLeague bailout, without which things are now looking very uncertain for them.

Who wouldn’t want a billionaire takeover looking at Spurs?
Joe Lewis is a billionaire. He bought the majority stakeholding off Alan Sugar in 2001.
 

Mb194dc

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The short answer is yes. 19/20 figures:
  • Turnover down £461m to £392m
  • EBITDA down from £168m down to £106m
  • This includes £61m Champions League revenue (very uncertain over the next few years)
  • This includes £95m match day revenue (will reduce massively 20/21 and is still uncertain for 21/22)
  • Cost to service debt has increased from £11m to £25m to £43m
  • Net debt increased to £605m (largest in the world)
  • Net transfer debt increased £114m (4th highest in the world), meaning total net debt is £719m
  • Wages are increasing faster than at any other top 6 club in recent years (81% in 4 years, albeit from a lower base)
Effectively spending is going up rapidly (wages, transfers, interest), whilst turnover is going down rapidly.

They need to put a sharp halt to their increasing costs; whilst at the same time praying stadiums open 100% next season, hoping in a Covid environment they will get a naming rights deal they couldn't achieve in a non-Covid world and ensuring they regularly finish in the CL (difficult with City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and United all looking far better at the moment and the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Everton all hoping to usurp them as well).

With Levy's record hiring managers I'd be worried as a Spurs fan. Seven poor managers, one average manager and one good manager in 20 years; the only good manager being fortunate as it was his second choice after being rejected by the awful Van Gaal.
Very detailed post. Guess the owners will have to put capital in for them to go anywhere, or sell up to someone who can?

Building a stadium just as Covid hit was always going to cause major financial issues.

Just happy ours got cancelled!
 

Tapori

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- Big stadium to pay for.
- No match day revenue.
- No NFL or planned events.
- No manager and having to pay out Jose.
- Potentially no top 4 with no European football.
- Massive investment needed in the squad.
- Son and Kane wobbling about staying on.
- Failed Bale experiment which had cost a fortune.

It seems Spurs really needed the ESL as much as any of the Spanish and Italian clubs, if not more.

Where do they go from here?
Spurs mate literally was for the ESL because of this. Sad times
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Joe Lewis is a billionaire. He bought the majority stakeholding off Alan Sugar in 2001.
Sadly he has never put any of his billions in, he has "loaned" us money in the past, its why I'm not overly bothered and the numbers quoted are very misleading, the majority of our debt is long term which can be kicked down the road, our short term debt is around £300M I think.
 

TheReligion

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The short answer is yes. 19/20 figures:
  • Turnover down £461m to £392m
  • EBITDA down from £168m down to £106m
  • This includes £61m Champions League revenue (very uncertain over the next few years)
  • This includes £95m match day revenue (will reduce massively 20/21 and is still uncertain for 21/22)
  • Cost to service debt has increased from £11m to £25m to £43m
  • Net debt increased to £605m (largest in the world)
  • Net transfer debt increased £114m (4th highest in the world), meaning total net debt is £719m
  • Wages are increasing faster than at any other top 6 club in recent years (81% in 4 years, albeit from a lower base)
Effectively spending is going up rapidly (wages, transfers, interest), whilst turnover is going down rapidly.

They need to put a sharp halt to their increasing costs; whilst at the same time praying stadiums open 100% next season, hoping in a Covid environment they will get a naming rights deal they couldn't achieve in a non-Covid world and ensuring they regularly finish in the CL (difficult with City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and United all looking far better at the moment and the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Everton all hoping to usurp them as well).

With Levy's record hiring managers I'd be worried as a Spurs fan. Seven poor managers, one average manager and one good manager in 20 years; the only good manager being fortunate as it was his second choice after being rejected by the awful Van Gaal.
Very detailed and interesting post.

Thank you.
 

Maluco

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I don’t care how much money their stadium is worth, inviting them to a Super League was the most bizarre part about it all and shone a bright light on what it was all about.

Look at the heritage and history of clubs like Porto, Ajax, Benfica etc... To not invite clubs with titles (both European and domestic) and to invite Spurs, who haven’t won a title in 60+ years, is absolutely bizarre.

Arsenal was a debatable inclusion, but Spurs? I actually like them as a club, but in the top 15 clubs in Europe? It was easily the strangest thing about the whole super league.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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I don’t care how much money their stadium is worth, inviting them to a Super League was the most bizarre part about it all and shone a bright light on what it was all about.

Look at the heritage and history of clubs like Porto, Ajax, Benfica etc... To not invite clubs with titles (both European and domestic) and to invite Spurs, who haven’t won a title in 60+ years, is absolutely bizarre.

Arsenal was a debatable inclusion, but Spurs? I actually like them as a club, but in the top 15 clubs in Europe? It was easily the strangest thing about the whole super league.
The ESL was nothing but a money league, picked on their ability to make money and continue to make money. If we hadn't got the stadium we wouldn't have got the invite, I think we all know that. I find it bizarre people actually are believing it was for the good of football :lol:.
 

Maluco

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The ESL was nothing but a money league, picked on their ability to make money and continue to make money. If we hadn't got the stadium we wouldn't have got the invite, I think we all know that. I find it bizarre people actually are believing it was for the good of football :lol:.
Thats what I was saying mate. The selection of the clubs was the biggest indicator of what it was all about.

Leaving out clubs with such massive heritage and impact on European football was a massive mistake.

If it has been a 30 club tournaments including those great clubs from Germany, Holland, Portugal etc... and it had had the opportunity for other clubs to earn their right, it would have gotten more support.

Their biggest misread was not taking the history and tradition of football into account
 

Amadaeus

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Can we ban Amadaeus if they even mention Poch in this thread? Please?
For you to mention Pochettino showcase how brilliant his time at spurs was. Similiar to how arsenal fans think that things will be better after Arsene Wenger, spurs fan had that same ignorance. However, Spurs fan were much more ignorant because at least Arsenal were a big club with grandiose expectations. Spurs were a mid table club that overachieved with Pochettino in charge. Unless levy started spending large and find the right manager, he will not fix the mess spurs is in.
 

esmufc07

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so basically an autobiography? i knew one day people would clamour to hear my story. sure. will chuck it in the chat thread and tag you.
It’s nice to see an old face again rim. I hope lolibfascon is still going strong.
 

Pexbo

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For you to mention Pochettino showcase how brilliant his time at spurs was.
No it showcases how much you have wittered on about him on here and nothing else. You’re boring everyone now mate, it’s about as funny as chronic back ache.
 

Amadaeus

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No it showcases how much you have wittered on about him on here and nothing else. You’re boring everyone now mate, it’s about as funny as chronic back ache.
It wasn’t meant to be funny as Pochettino was underrated on here by the likes of you and many other fan, but he has consistently proven his doubter wrong and Mourinho failure is just another highlight of that.