Are Spurs in a bit of a mess?

rimaldo

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It’s nice to see an old face again rim. I hope lolibfascon is still going strong.
:lol:

i was thinking about that the other day. what a revolution that was. i can’t remember exactly what we were fighting for, but god was it just. how are you?
 

YAMS49

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The short answer is yes. 19/20 figures:
  • Turnover down £461m to £392m
  • EBITDA down from £168m down to £106m
  • This includes £61m Champions League revenue (very uncertain over the next few years)
  • This includes £95m match day revenue (will reduce massively 20/21 and is still uncertain for 21/22)
  • Cost to service debt has increased from £11m to £25m to £43m
  • Net debt increased to £605m (largest in the world)
  • Net transfer debt increased £114m (4th highest in the world), meaning total net debt is £719m
  • Wages are increasing faster than at any other top 6 club in recent years (81% in 4 years, albeit from a lower base)
Effectively spending is going up rapidly (wages, transfers, interest), whilst turnover is going down rapidly.

They need to put a sharp halt to their increasing costs; whilst at the same time praying stadiums open 100% next season, hoping in a Covid environment they will get a naming rights deal they couldn't achieve in a non-Covid world and ensuring they regularly finish in the CL (difficult with City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and United all looking far better at the moment and the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Everton all hoping to usurp them as well).

With Levy's record hiring managers I'd be worried as a Spurs fan. Seven poor managers, one average manager and one good manager in 20 years; the only good manager being fortunate as it was his second choice after being rejected by the awful Van Gaal.
Great info here so thanks for that but nothing on the cheese room?
 

VP89

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The short answer is yes. 19/20 figures:
  • Turnover down £461m to £392m
  • EBITDA down from £168m down to £106m
  • This includes £61m Champions League revenue (very uncertain over the next few years)
  • This includes £95m match day revenue (will reduce massively 20/21 and is still uncertain for 21/22)
  • Cost to service debt has increased from £11m to £25m to £43m
  • Net debt increased to £605m (largest in the world)
  • Net transfer debt increased £114m (4th highest in the world), meaning total net debt is £719m
  • Wages are increasing faster than at any other top 6 club in recent years (81% in 4 years, albeit from a lower base)
Effectively spending is going up rapidly (wages, transfers, interest), whilst turnover is going down rapidly.

They need to put a sharp halt to their increasing costs; whilst at the same time praying stadiums open 100% next season, hoping in a Covid environment they will get a naming rights deal they couldn't achieve in a non-Covid world and ensuring they regularly finish in the CL (difficult with City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and United all looking far better at the moment and the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Everton all hoping to usurp them as well).

With Levy's record hiring managers I'd be worried as a Spurs fan. Seven poor managers, one average manager and one good manager in 20 years; the only good manager being fortunate as it was his second choice after being rejected by the awful Van Gaal.
So I get the Kane t-shirt now or..?
 

hobbers

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No idea if this works. Looks like it did.
I'm not sure this would work as an exit clause in a contract.

Surely that would only be the final league position in a season? You'd have to be a total idiot of a manager to sign a contract where you would get a fraction of the termination fee for being out of the top four at some arbitrary point in the season, other than where you finally finish.
 
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I'm not sure this would work as an exit clause in a contract.

Surely that would only be the final league position in a season? You'd have to be a total idiot of a manager to sign a contract where you would get a fraction of the termination fee for being out of the top four at some arbitrary point in the season, other than where you finally finish.
should have sacked him he day before the season started. They would have been about 17th on alphabetical order?

would have cost £5.

jamie redknapp doesn’t know the ins and out of his contract any more than I do.
 

hobbers

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should have sacked him he day before the season started. They would have been about 17th on alphabetical order?

would have cost £5.

jamie redknapp doesn’t know the ins and out of his contract any more than I do.
Yeah it has to be complete bollocks.

There is no way Jose Mourinho, master of maximising his exit fees from contracts, signs one where he could stand to gain £30m from being sacked one gameweek half way through the season, and stand to gain only £5m the following week based on one bad result.
 
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Yeah it has to be complete bollocks.

There is no way Jose Mourinho, master of maximising his exit fees from contracts, signs one where he could stand to gain £30m from being sacked one gameweek half way through the season, and stand to gain only £5m the following week based on one bad result.
agree bollocks. Redknapp is as bad as people on here for spin, rumour and seeing things that aren’t there. Unfortunately he has a voice.

he’s such a pointless pundit.
 

Gasolin

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Are they going to be forced to sell Kane on a cheap, yes or no? That's the only thing that interests me.
 

adexkola

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Are they going to be forced to sell Kane on a cheap, yes or no? That's the only thing that interests me.
What would the point be? They still have leverage due to his quality and contract length. He'll go for a high price.

I just don't think they'll be able to pull off the mini-rebuild. It'll need excellent player recruitment under a manager who knows what he's doing. I rate Sarri, if he can get them to his Napoli levels it'll be a job well done.
 

sugar_kane

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Levy has absolutely shat the bed the past 18 months

1. sacked one of the most highly regarded young managers in the world
2. brought in an over the hill manager who was almost guaranteed to create complete squad disharmony (which he did) in the hope he would deliver a trophy (he didn't)
3. on the back of the above, potentially driven away England's star striker and their one truly world class talent
4. alienated all of English football by signing up for a super league which they had no right being a part of
5. became a further laughing stock by it all falling apart within 48 hours

The highest compliment I can pay him at this point is that at least he's given everyone a good laugh (Spurs fans excepted)

What's funnier is he doesn't even have the get out of being a nasty evil foreign based owner who has no regard for the fans or club, this guy is meant to be a spurs fan born and bred.
 

Gasolin

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What would the point be? They still have leverage due to his quality and contract length. He'll go for a high price.

I just don't think they'll be able to pull off the mini-rebuild. It'll need excellent player recruitment under a manager who knows what he's doing. I rate Sarri, if he can get them to his Napoli levels it'll be a job well done.
Then we should leave them be. We can't afford too much investment on a striker, we need that RW first.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Thats what I was saying mate. The selection of the clubs was the biggest indicator of what it was all about.

Leaving out clubs with such massive heritage and impact on European football was a massive mistake.

If it has been a 30 club tournaments including those great clubs from Germany, Holland, Portugal etc... and it had had the opportunity for other clubs to earn their right, it would have gotten more support.

Their biggest misread was not taking the history and tradition of football into account
Yeah but that would have made them less money and diluted the cash pot.
 

africanspur

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I wouldn’t say you’re a badly run club per se, just that you’re the same as everyone else who’s similar in terms of club stature. People on here generally equate playing well on the pitch with being a well run club, which is by no means always the case. You had a decent manager, made some decent transfers and academy promotions, and enjoyed relative success off the back of it. It’s mainly a reflection on us, because we really have been terribly run in the past.
I think that's my point though.

20 years ago when they took over, who were the clubs of similar stature? Even 10 years ago who would people have said? Wasn't that long ago that a successful season was not being threatened with relegation and our peers, not just on the pitch but off it, were Everton, Newcastle and Villa. The fact that we're even in the same conversation for something like the ESL, as shite an idea as it fundamentally us, is an astonishing jump up.

As I said, the timing of Covid could not have come at a worse time for the club really but such is life. We were run pretty much without debt or loss until we built the stadium but I'm not going to blame Levy for not forseeing a once in a generation pandemic affecting our finances.

I'm personally far less enamoured with the owners than many other Spurs fans, though my reasons are a bit different (the threat to move to Stratford, the feeling that he misses the footballing opportunity to go for it when it presents itself, now this ESL shite) but I think all banter aside (and all ill-feeling towards Glaston or amadeus or Poch etc aside), the club is a totally different beast to what it was when they took over. Don't think they have it in them to make that final step personally but they've generally done a good job imo. Were it not for Covid, I think we'd have cemented ourselves pretty firmly as am almost ever present in the top 6.

Now...who knows.
 

finneh

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Very detailed post. Guess the owners will have to put capital in for them to go anywhere, or sell up to someone who can?

Building a stadium just as Covid hit was always going to cause major financial issues.

Just happy ours got cancelled!
In fairness I was arguing that the stadium was a questionable idea long before Covid. The increase in revenue never really added up to the cost of the build in terms of payback, especially in an environment where match day revenue is the least important stream (way behind TV and Commercial). We've seen the same with Arsenal.

The club builds a stadium for £1b to increase revenue by maybe £80m a year. I know some fans and analysts were saying £150m, but for some reason the best example that this was nonsense, just across North London was ignored. Missing out on the Champions League as a result of the sapping of resources the build takes is not far of the same figure.

I also didn't think the stadium itself was going to result in enough commercial revenue increase to justify the cost. Levy was coming up with pie in the sky naming rights figures that were double what even more attractive clubs had achieved (they seemed to use City's deal with their owners other company as justification). Likewise talking about how they'd be getting tens of millions due to allowing NFL matches (spoiler alert: if it were that profitable clubs would have done it years ago).

They're fortunate that interest rates are so low at the moment as if that changes in the next few years it could get really messy.

I genuinely believe like a lot of things Levy does it's more a vanity project than anything else. The same as squeezing a few extra million by dragging transfers on until late in the summer, meaning his managers often can't get targets in early (or at all). Likewise sacking a manager a few days before a cup final to save a few quid at the expense of a potential trophy.

I'm just surprised he hasn't called it the Levy stadium since no-one else seems interested.
 
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FootballHQ

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They're in similar situation to 2013/14 period really after Bale left. Same could happen with Kane this summer.

More of a 6th/7th finishing team back then with some mediocre players but likes of Vertonghen and Eriksen soon developed into world class players in their respective positions and they soon went up the league when Kane started scoring.

They certainly need a proper coach as next manager who can develop 4-5 new players or existing ones who haven't quite got going yet rather than chequebook manager so interesting who they come up with, still think Rodgers would be great fit for them if they can pull it off.
 

Scroto Baggins

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Are they going to be forced to sell Kane on a cheap, yes or no? That's the only thing that interests me.
They will get a tidy sum for him.

They're in similar situation to 2013/14 period really after Bale left. Same could happen with Kane this summer.

More of a 6th/7th finishing team back then with some mediocre players but likes of Vertonghen and Eriksen soon developed into world class players in their respective positions and they soon went up the league when Kane started scoring.

They certainly need a proper coach as next manager who can develop 4-5 new players or existing ones who haven't quite got going yet rather than chequebook manager so interesting who they come up with, still think Rodgers would be great fit for them if they can pull it off.
I agree with this, Kane is going for me, he's not going to sit around wasting time with no CL and no trophies. And Spurs need to use the money generated from his sale for a rebuild.

The squad needs a clear out, probably needed it in the Pochettino era. Players either going stale and need to move on for their careers, or are simply not good enough if Spurs are genuine about wanting top four.

Lamela fit that Pochettino press hard and fast from the front style, but Im sure there are CB's with a better goal return per game. Ndombele is a Youtube player, like Taraabt before him, silky on the ball, moments of pure skill, great passing, but only plays about 20mins. Just jogs around most games I have seen him with those one or two crazy skill moments, defensive liability in a midifeld 2 as players just run by him. Needs to be in that creative role I feel at the middle of the three behind the striker, or part of a midfield three where he has some cover. Winks and Sissoko squad players, Sissoko has all the pace, power, and athleticism you could possibly want, with zero footballing intelligence, poor passing and shooting. For me he actually fit the Jose style midfielder well. Hojbjerg has done well though, as has Lo Celso when he hasnt been injured.

The defence, Sanchez seems like he has been at Spurs for years and has not improved, Tanganga is a kid, Dier is average to good, has an error in him though, Alderweireld a classy CB but age is catching up with him. Reguillon defensively suspect, great going forwards, Aurier tbf has improved, was a walking red card when he first came on the scene.

The attack without Kane is average, and you assume Bale will go back to RM. Spurs attack will be Son, Vinicius, Moura, Son the only one of those three that strikes me as being top four level. Vinicius really unproven, Moura definitely good to have as a squad option.
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
In fairness I was arguing that the stadium was a questionable idea long before Covid. The increase in revenue never really added up to the cost of the build in terms of payback, especially in an environment where match day revenue is the least important stream (way behind TV and Commercial). We've seen the same with Arsenal.

The club builds a stadium for £1b to increase revenue by maybe £80m a year. I know some fans and analysts were saying £150m, but for some reason the best example that this was nonsense, just across North London was ignored. Missing out on the Champions League as a result of the sapping of resources the build takes is not far of the same figure.

I also didn't think the stadium itself was going to result in enough commercial revenue increase to justify the cost. Levy was coming up with pie in the sky naming rights figures that were double what even more attractive clubs had achieved (they seemed to use City's deal with their owners other company as justification). Likewise talking about how they'd be getting tens of millions due to allowing NFL matches (spoiler alert: if it were that profitable clubs would have done it years ago).

They're fortunate that interest rates are so low at the moment as if that changes in the next few years it could get really messy.

I genuinely believe like a lot of things Levy does it's more a vanity project than anything else. The same as squeezing a few extra million by dragging transfers on until late in the summer, meaning his managers often can't get targets in early (or at all). Likewise sacking a manager a few days before a cup final to save a few quid at the expense of a potential trophy.

I'm just surprised he hasn't called it the Levy stadium since no-one else seems interested.
Hold up here wasn't that deal all above board, fair market value and not at all artificially inflated?
 

edcunited1878

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They never and still haven't replaced Eriksen. Deviated away from a 433, pressing, counter attacking, and quick transition team that suited their players. And Dele Alli regressed so hard and was found out.

Spurs lack character, pretty much always have. Their CL Final run masked their league regression since finishing second to Leicester and there was real tension between Poch and Levy, which spilled over to the players when the proper reinforcements weren't made. Spurs need a Ten Haag or Nagalsmann type manager and quickly make some shrewd signings at CB and CM.

Players like Dele, Ndombele, Berjiwin, and Sanchez have to make huge leaps in levels for them to compete for CL spots. Tall ask.
 

finneh

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Hold up here wasn't that deal all above board, fair market value and not at all artificially inflated?
In the same world where a club could go from being unknown to 90% of the footballing world 10 years prior; to organically growing to the 5th highest commercial revenue on the planet (above the likes of Liverpool, Juventus, Arsenal and Chelsea) I suppose!

A fantasy world
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
In the same world where a club could go from being unknown to 90% of the footballing world 10 years prior; to organically growing to the 5th highest commercial revenue on the planet (above the likes of Liverpool, Juventus, Arsenal and Chelsea) I suppose!

A fantasy world
Yeah I bet it's great fun for the people who live there though.
 

lysglimt

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Ok - if you look at the new manager. Someone who can operate on a low budget, play nice football, no pressure to get results, and winning a Trophy is not a requirement.

Could you describe Graham Potter in a better way ? :)
 

Dave Smith

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Spurs aren't in a mess, Spurs are just Spurs. Never forget what Fergie said about Spurs whenever they go through a relative good period (for them.)

'Come on lads, it's Tottenham'.
 

FootballHQ

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Ok - if you look at the new manager. Someone who can operate on a low budget, play nice football, no pressure to get results, and winning a Trophy is not a requirement.

Could you describe Graham Potter in a better way ? :)
I'd be intrigued to see what he could do at that sort of club tbh. You watch Brighton and obviously they can't finish but their football is usually excellent against teams at top and bottom of the league so give him Kane and Son to work with for a season and would be interesting. Someone like Bissouma in central midfield is also someone I could see Spurs targeting.

Let's remember when they took Pochettino he'd had an excellent season with Southampton but he'd only been there 18 months so it was a relatively small success sample. Him and Rodgers are really the only managers I can think of in last decade from bottom half/mid table that the top teams have taken a chance on.

Spurs could certainly do worse than Graham Potter but at same point it obviously won't excite their fanbase as much as say Nagalsmann.
 

VorZakone

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Spurs wouldn't even have got into the SL if Bayern and PSG decided they wanted to be in it.
What do you mean? There were 12 founding clubs but there were expected to be 15 including Bayern & PSG. Those 2 joining wouldn't have affected Spurs.
 

TheReligion

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Absolutely garbage performance in the cup final today. Kane and Son must be seriously looking at their futures this summer.
 

El Zoido

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Every time I get depressed I just remind myself I don’t support Spurs and it makes me happy again.
 

TheMitz

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Very poor today, some really bad players in that team.

Even Kane looks bang average with that group playing.
 

Irwin99

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Still think sacking your manager a week before the cup final was a ridiculously crappy thing to do. They got what they deserved today and should have lost by more.

If they can sell Kane for 100 million and reinvest wisely and get a forward-thinking manager then they might be able to bounce back. A big summer for them.
 

redrobed

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Actually found myself thinking ill of City for not letting Tottenham win. In the same way as if you’re an adult you let a 5 year old win. Feels like they’re just perennial losers.
 
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Levy has lost his senses, he brings in Jose to win trophies then sacks him before a cup final. Amateur stuff.
 

Jezpeza

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If one match ever summed spurs up this. Zero ambition. Playing for a penalty shootout from the kick off. cant remember seeing a worse showing in a cup final by any team. Chasing the game at the end and players just walking, heads down. At least mourinho might have had some sort of tactical idea for this showpiece. Kane on his way this summer, mid table obscurity beckons